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What Makes People NOT believe In God? (Atheists Come!)

 
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 01:22 am
Quote:
How appropriate given that a scapegoat is a jewish religious ritual


Well, you know, I'm not a Jew so I have no idea what you're talking about. Smile
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Revenge and nationalism.


Oh I think Genghis Khan is a tid bit more than a nationalist.
He wanted to conquer the world.

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Which purge? There have been so many.


"The Purge", Stalin's massive and idiotic removal of his military officers.
I should've put in all of his other crimes as well.

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Nationalism, living up to daddy.

Don't forget wanting to see the edge of the world.

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Nationalism, Repressed anger over being short.

Laughing

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Not really, nationalism takes the cake. Though your examples reminded me that greed holds its fair share of the blame as well.

Sad ain't it?

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Whoever has the gold makes the rules?

No, no, the other golden rule.
0 Replies
 
theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 06:52 am
Ray wrote:
Well, you know, I'm not a Jew so I have no idea what you're talking about. Smile

Like most religious rituals it involves lots of blood, perversion of justice and is particularly disgusting. So much so that I have no intention of bringing it up here. If you want to look it up it's in leviticus 16:6-28.

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Oh I think Genghis Khan is a tid bit more than a nationalist. He wanted to conquer the world.

Source?

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"The Purge", Stalin's massive and idiotic removal of his military officers. I should've put in all of his other crimes as well.

Why not just put down Stalin? It worked for Hitler and Napoleon.

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Sad ain't it?

Yes. The human race so frequently is.

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No, no, the other golden rule.

It's a game. If people aren't having fun then change the rules.
(I know a LOT of golden rules :wink:)
0 Replies
 
Ray
 
  1  
Reply Wed 9 Feb, 2005 10:46 pm
Quote:
Like most religious rituals it involves lots of blood, perversion of justice and is particularly disgusting. So much so that I have no intention of bringing it up here. If you want to look it up it's in leviticus 16:6-28.


They still do it today?

Quote:
Source?


Can't provide direct quotes, it doesn't matter I only read it through internet websites which probably isn't too credible, so forget the conquer the world part.

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Why not just put down Stalin? It worked for Hitler and Napoleon.

Because I was thinking of how idiotic and brutal his purges are.

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It's a game. If people aren't having fun then change the rules.
(I know a LOT of golden rules )

I don't get it.
0 Replies
 
theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 12:44 am
Ray wrote:
They still do it today?


God I hope not. Or should that be, G-d I hope not? Razz
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Ray
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 01:12 am
Laughing

God does not necessarily have to be tied to religion.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 03:33 am
theantibuddha wrote:


Quote:
Genghis Khan? greed.

Revenge and nationalism.

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Hitler? greed, hatred.

Nationalism, scapegoat, repressed national anger over prior defeat, repressive peace treaty, economics.

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Napoleon? greed.

Nationalism, Repressed anger over being short. Razz

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WWI? Imperialism

Naitonalism, Fear.



Genghis Khan: Nationalism, revenge, and greed and greed played a very large part in the picture. Uniting the steppe tribes into one nation changed the dynamic in which manufactured goods from the south filtered northward via trade and conquest and put a big onus on the guy who had done it to provide members of all the tribes with manufactured goods.

Hitler: nationalism, ideology (evolutionism), and an out of control arms race.

WW-I Nationalism and an out of control arms race.

Poland and France both destroyed themselves trying to win the arms race in the late 20s without fighting major wars. They bankrupted themselves and then socialist governments took over and threw the militaries of both nations into shambles. Hitler tried to resolve the problem by simply catching a wave and riding it. In other words, he armed his military with outright state of art weaponry and then went for it on the general theory that the day after he proclaimed himself WeltKoenig, how much he owed the bankers for having done so would cease to matter.
0 Replies
 
theantibuddha
 
  1  
Reply Thu 10 Feb, 2005 04:19 am
gungasnake wrote:

WW-I Nationalism and an out of control arms race.

Poland and France both destroyed themselves trying to win the arms race in the late 20s without fighting major wars. They bankrupted themselves and then socialist governments took over and threw the militaries of both nations into shambles. Hitler tried to resolve the problem by simply catching a wave and riding it. In other words, he armed his military with outright state of art weaponry and then went for it on the general theory that the day after he proclaimed himself WeltKoenig, how much he owed the bankers for having done so would cease to matter.


Thankyou for that nauseating distortion of European history.

Yes, of course. Poland and France were bankrupted in the late 20s because of arms races... it had nothing to do with THE GREAT DEPRESSION.

Hitler was of course driven by evolutionary beliefs... it had nothing to do with his CHRISTIAN beliefs. One of the many christian anti-semitic quotes found in Mein Kampf, "....the personification of the devil as the symbol
of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."

<splutters to a halt>

... Your account is only a paragraph long and contains so many errors in historical fact that I scarcely know where to begin. Where on earth did you learn your history? Seriously, I'd love to know where you're getting this from.
0 Replies
 
yelloworld
 
  1  
Reply Thu 24 Feb, 2005 09:32 pm
lots of things i'd imagine - great injustice (look at the number of jews who stopped speaking 2god after the holocaust horror), the death of a loved one - especially if that loved one is a child or baby -,an act that seems, to the person, of inconcievable injustice and cruelty. Then its along the lines of 'why didnt god stop it? if he exists why didnt he do something? There is the issue of free will. I think it takes believers and non-believers to keep god alive - if we didnt debate it would just be taken as a given and relegated to boring sunday duty belief. Because we have to staunchly argue our case for or against it keeps the whole thing alive and fresh. Lets face it humans, by nature, are petulant, argumentative creatures and we've never had anything in the world that everyones agreed upon existing without major debate and argument and (quite often) bloodshed - or as in the case os socrates forced suicide. Guess you'll all just have to wait and see.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 09:54 am
theantibuddha wrote:



Hitler was of course driven by evolutionary beliefs... it had nothing to do with his CHRISTIAN beliefs.... i



Hitler didn't have any Christian beliefs. Lip service yes, but not beliefs.

From Sir Arthur Keith's Evolution and Ethics:






Chapter 3

The Behavior of Germany Considered from an Evolutionary Point of View in 1942

VISITORS TO GERMANY IN 1934 FOUND AN emotional storm sweeping through masses of the people, particularly the more educated. The movement had much in common with a religious revival. The preacher in this case was Adolf Hitler; his doctrine was, and is, tribalism; he had stirred in the emotional depths of the German people those long-dormant tribal feelings which find release and relief in mutual service; men and women who had been leading selfish lives or were drifting aimlessly were given a new purpose in life: service to their country the Third Reich. It is worth noting that Hitler uses a double designation for his tribal doctrine National Socialism: Socialism standing for the good side of the tribal spirit (that which works within the Reich); aud Nationalism for the ethically vicious part, which dominates policy at and outside the German frontiers.

The leader of Germany is an evolutionist not only in theory, but, as millions know to their cost, in the rigor of its practice. [/size]For him the national "front" of Europe is also the evolutionary "front"; he regards himself, and is regarded, as the incarnation of the will of Germany, the purpose of that will being to guide the evolutionary destiny of its people. He has brought into

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modern life the tribal and evolutionary mentality of prehistoric times. Hitler has confronted the statesmen of the world with an evolutionary problem of an unprecedented magnitude. What is the world to do with a united aggressive tribe numbering eighty millions!

We must not lose sight of the purpose of our visit to Germany; it was to see how far modern evolutionary practice can provide us with a scientific basis for ethical or moral behavior. As a source of information concerning Hitler's evolutionary and ethical doctrines I have before me Mein Kampf, extracts from The Times covering German affairs during the last twenty years, and the monthly journal R.F.C. (Racio Political Foreign Correspondenee), published by the German Bureau for Human Betterment and Eugenics and circulated by that bureau for the enlightenment of anthropologists living abroad. In the number of that journal for July 1937, there appears in English the text of a speech given by the German Fuhrer on January 30, 1937, in reply to a statement made by Mr. Anthony Eden that "the German race theory" stood in the way of a common discussion of European problems. Hitler maintained his theory would have an opposite effect; "it will bring about a real understanding for the first time." "It is not for men," said the Fuhrer, "to discuss the question of why Providence created different races, but rather to recognize that it punishes those who disregard its work of creation." I may remark incidentally that in this passage, as in many others, the German Fuhrer, like Bishop Barnes and many of our more intellectual clergy, regards evolution as God's mode of creation. God having created races, it is therefore "the noblest and most sacred duty for each racial species of mankind to preserve the purity of the blood which God has given it." Here we have expounded the perfectly sound doctrine of evolutionary isolation; even as an ethical doctrine it should not be condemned. No German must be guilty of the "greatest racial sin" that of bringing the fruits of hybridity into the world. The reproductive "genes" which circulate within the frontiers of Germany must be kept uncontaminated, so that they may work out the racial destiny of the German people without impediment. Hitler is also a eugenist. Germans who suffer from

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hereditable imperfections of mind or of body must be rendered infertile, so that "the strong may not be plagued by the weak." Sir Francis Galton, the founder of eugenics, taught a somewhat similar evolutionary doctrine namely, that if our nation was to prosper we must give encouragement to the strong rather than to the weak; a saving which may be justified by evolution, but not by ethics as recognized and practiced by civilized peoples. The liberties of German women are to be sacrificed; they must devote their activities to their households, especially to the sacred duty of raising succeeding generations. The birth rate was stimulated by bounties and subsidies so that the German tribe might grow in numbers and in strength. In all these matters the Nazi doctrine is evolutionist.

Hitler has sought on every occasion and in every way to heighten the national consciousness of the German people or, what is the same thing, to make them racially conscious; to give them unity of spirit and unity of purpose. Neighborly approaches of adjacent nations are and were repelled; the German people were deliberately isolated. Cosmopolitanism, liberality of opinion, affectation of foreign manners and dress were unsparingly condemned. The old tribal bonds (love of the Fatherland, feeling of mutual kinship), the bonds of "soil and blood," became "the main plank in the National Social program." "Germany was for the Germans" was another plank. Foreign policy was "good or bad according to its beneficial or harmful effects on the German folk now or hereafter." "Charity and humility are only for home consumption" a statement in which Hitler gives an exact expression of the law which limits sympathy to its tribe. "Humanitarianism is an evil . . . a creeping poison." "The most cruel methods are humane if they give a speedy victory" is Hitler's echo of a maxim attributed to Moltke. Such are the ways of evolution when applied to human affairs.

I have said nothing about the methods employed by the Nazi leaders to secure tribal unity in Germany methods of brutal compulsion, bloody force, and the concentration camp. Such methods cannot be brought within even a Machiavellian system of ethics, and yet may be justified by their evolutionary result.

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Even in that result we may harbor a doubt: can unity obtained by such methods be relied on to endure?

There are other aspects of Nazi policy which raise points which may be legitimate subjects of ethical debate. In recent years British men of science have debated this ethical problem: an important discovery having been made a new poison gas, for example is it not the duty of the discoverer to suppress it if there is a possibility of its being used for an evil purpose? My personal conviction is that science is concerned wholly with truth, not with ethics. A man of science is responsible for the accuracy of his observations and of his inferences, not for the results which may follow therefrom. Under no circumstances should the truth be suppressed; yet suppression and distortion of the truth is a deliberate part of Nazi policy. Every anthropologist in Germany, be he German or Jew, was and is silenced in Nazi Germany unless the Hitlerian racial doctrine is accepted without any reservation whatsoever. Authors, artists, preachers, and editors are undone if they stray beyond the limits of the National Socialist tether. Individual liberty of thought and of its expression is completely suppressed. An effective tribal unity is thus attained at the expense of truth. And yet has not the Church in past times persecuted science just in this Hitlerian way? There was a time, and not so long ago, when it was dangerous for a biologist to harbor a thought that clashed in any way with the Mosaic theory of creation.

No aspect of Hitler's policy proclaims the antagonism between evolution and ethics so forcibly as his treatment of the Jewish people in Germany. So strong are the feelings roused that it is difficult for even science to approach the issues so raised with an unclouded judgment. Ethically the Hitlerian treatment of the Jews stands condemned out of hand. Hitler is cruel, but I do not think that his policy can be explained by attributing it to a mere satisfaction of a lust, or to a search for a scapegoat on which Germany can wreak her wrath for the ills which followed her defeat of 1918. The Church in Spain subjected the Jews to the cruelty of the Inquisition, but no one ever sought to explain the Church's behavior by suggesting that she had a

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lust for cruelty which had to be satisfied. The Church adopted the Inquisition as a policy; it was a means of securing unity of mind in her flock. Hitler is an uncompromising evolutionist, and we must seek for an evolutionary explanation if we are to understand his actions. When the Huguenots fled to Germany they mingled their "genes" with those of their host and disappeared as an entity. The Jews are made of other stuff: for two thousand years, living amid European communities, they have maintained their identity; it is an article of their creed, as it is of Hitler's, to breed true. They, too, practice an evolutionary doctrine. Is it possible for two peoples living within the same frontiers, dwelling side by side, to work out harmoniously their separate evolutionary destinies? Apparently Hitler believes this to be impossible; we in Britain and in America believe it to be not only possible, but also profitable.

It must not be thought that in seeking to explain Hitler's actions I am seeking to justify them. The opposite is the case. I have made this brief survey of public policy in modern Germany with a definite object: to show that Dr. Waddington is in error when he seeks to place ethics on a scientific basis by a knowledge of evolutionary tendencies and practice.

Chapter 4

Human Life: Its Purpose or Ultimate End

IN THE COURSE OF GATHERING INFORMATION concerning man's morality and the part it has played and is playing in his evolution, I found it necessary to provide space for slips which were labeled "Life: Its Ultimate and Proximate Purposes." Only those who have devoted some special attention to this matter are aware of the multitude of reasons given for the appearance of man on earth. Here I shall touch on only a few of them; to deal with all would require a big book. The reader may exclaim: Why deal with any of them! What has ultimate purpose got to do with ethics and evolution! Let a man with a clearer head and a nimbler pen than mine reply. He is Edward Carpenter, who wrote Civilization: Its Cause and Cure (1889).

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It is from the sixteenth edition (1923) I am to quote, p. 249:

If we have decided what the final purpose or Life of Man is, then we may say that what is good for that purpose is finally "good" and what is bad for that purpose is finally "evil."

If the final purpose of our existence is that which has been and is being worked out under the discipline of evolutionary law, then, although we are quite unconscious of the end result, we ought, as Dr. Waddington has urged, to help on "that which tends to promote the ultimate course of evolution." If we do so, then we have to abandon the hope of ever attaining a universal system of ethics; for, as we have just seen, the ways of national evolution, both in the past and in the present, are cruel, brutal, ruthless, and without mercy. Dr. Waddington has not grasped the implications of Nature's method of evolution, for in his summing up (Nature, 1941, 150, p. 535) he writes "that the ethical principles formulated by Christ . . . are those which have tended towards the further evolution of mankind, and that they will continue to do so." Here a question of the highest interest is raised: the relationship which exists between evolution and Christianity; so important, it seems to me, that I shall devote to it a separate chapter. Meantime let me say that the conclusion I have come to is this: the law of Christ is incompatible with the law of evolution as far as the law of evolution has worked hitherto. Nay, the two laws are at war with each other; the law of Christ can never prevail until the law of evolution is destroyed. Clearly the form of evolution which Dr. Waddington has in mind is not that which has hitherto prevailed; what he has in mind is a man made system of evolution. In brief, instead of seeking ethical guidance from evolution, he now proposes to impose a system of ethics on evolution and so bring humanity ultimately to a safe and final anchorage in a Christian haven.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 05:35 pm
When Charles Dawson, Arthur Woodward and Fr Teilhard de Chardin made the discovery of Eoanthropus Dawsonii, it was Keith who became their chief champion. He argued well and , after Woodwards death, became the principle "Bulldog" for E dawsoni to be included into the pantheon of the late Tertiary hominids like Swanscombe and Taung. Unfortuately, Keith was not having some good days, because when K Oakley discovered the technique of relative dating by flourine analyses, E dawsoni was revealed to be the hoax that it always was,( it was, and still is, the Piltdown Man). So, my admonition to you is, dont get too caught up with anyones credentials alone. Its results that count in science. Keith was pretty much marginalized after that(about 1940) so his arguments about Hitler were more of an embarrassment than a statement of science

your quotes are right from the Institute of Creation Research, who , often, almost sound like they know of what they speak.
Dr Keith, in his book gave an opinion , not a scientific conclusion. Mein Kampf, contradicts Keiths very conclusions by Hitlers own words from Mein Kampf:

"White Aryans are the special creation of God,(and are) the highest image of the Lord, to rule over the subhumans"
or
"Anyone who dares lay hand on the highest image of the Lord(white Aryans, unless we fiorget) commits sacrilege against the benevolent Creator of this Miracle"


Hitler believed that Aryans were the favored people of God. The ICR has tried consistently to tie Hitler to evolution. I really dont mind because Darwin's truth has nothing to do with all this sociological extension bullshit. Darwin never said anything like what hes ascribed to have said.

By the way , while were at it , ICR has conferred a rank of "chief evolutionist" upon Stalin as well
. Everybody whose slightly familiar with Russian biological sciences of the 40's through the 70's knows that they took a Lamarkian(not Darwinian) turn because they felt DARWIN WAS bOURGEOIS. Thats why Lysenko (the idiot biologist) was revered in the Kremlin

Keith , is a decent early anthropologist, with lots of good credit to his reputation regarding available fossils in his early career, he just lived too long and made a goddam idiot out of himself in his later years
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 06:46 pm
Quote:

Hitler believed that Aryans were the favored people of God.


Hitler was like Slick Clinton and was basically a bullshit artist who actually claimed the Japanese were "yellow aryans". Whether the guy even had any core values or beliefs is highly problematical. The guy was definitely not above trying to USE Christianity or give lip service to it but, near as I can tell, that's as far as it went.

Other than that I've got my own little copy of Evolution and Ethics which I saved off a web site which used to have it and am not getting this one from the ICR.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 07:11 pm
Yeh but your thoughts were strait from Dr Duane. ICR has , way before you, tried to "link" evolutionary theory with all the eugenics based movements of the 20th century. Whether Hitler was a true believer in God or not is like whether the 700 club was merely a cash cow. It really didnt matter. Hitler wrote what I posted and people flocked to him. They were religious and he preyed upon that , not some biological theory.
Hell, he could have used "In Memoriam" better , because it plays evolution nicely along side Christianity

Didnt know all that about your inestimable Dr Keith ? He was the chump who made Piltdown man last as long as it did, even though the "ancient" jawbone had been treated with K Bichromate and anyone could see it was a mismarriage and a fake. So to base your opinions on Keiths dribblings of his last decade is like comparing Howard Hughes when he took over the drill bit company to when he was living in his hotel room with the long fingernails.
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El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 07:12 pm
The site probably says Hitler based his ideas off evolution which is 100% without a doubt true. Although it wasn't pure evolution but really social darwinism its based off Darwin's ideas.

However everything is distorted in the minds of sick people. I've seen religion twisted pretty good (terrorism, fundamentalism, and my favorite the Inquisition). Everything gets twisted when in the right hands.
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El-Diablo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 07:15 pm
Quote:
the law of Christ can never prevail until the law of evolution is destroyed.


Ergo the law of christ must go.
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farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 25 Feb, 2005 07:20 pm
Ive read Mein Kampf and, as I recall, the word evolution is not used. Maybe once when talking about how thought processes evolve via Kampf.

Evolutionary theory has had its turn at being "force fit" into anything that is even slightly contentious. Its the only theory that we quibble about in science. Yet its proofs are more profound than almost all others.
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dragonmanamon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 01:44 pm
how people disprove about god
[size=7][/size]

some people think it is impossible that the world is made in 6 days Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed Embarrassed
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dragonmanamon
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 01:50 pm
why do people hate god
why do people hate god what is wrong with you god was like us you know and that is a sin against him and you will go to hell Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil
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Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 01:59 pm
Again we are being asked for evidence to support a negative assertion.

Logic and common sense requires evidence to support the positive existence of god.

There is none.

Why do you not believe in the teapot orbiting Jupiter?
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JPB
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 03:38 pm
Re: why do people hate god
dragonmanamon wrote:
why do people hate god what is wrong with you god was like us you know and that is a sin against him and you will go to hell Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil Twisted Evil


How old are you, dragonmanamon?
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Mon 3 Dec, 2007 05:43 pm
emoticon age 13

chronological age possibly 8
0 Replies
 
 

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