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AP Poll: Stable Iraq Tops Voter Priorities

 
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:50 pm
Aris wrote:
Ticomaya wrote:
Remind me again why we messed with Milosevic?

Let me guess, because Clinton wanted to altruistically free the poor Croatians and Muslims that were on genocidal ramparts of their own?


That's fine and dandy, but it was a violation of international law, right? I mean, Serbia was a sovereign nation, and all, wasn't it? Therefore NATO had "no right to intervene in the affairs of another sovereign nation."
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Aris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:52 pm
Idaho wrote:
The problem with your analogy is that we are discussing global politics, not a nest of hornets.


Exactly.

Dozens of innocent Iraqis are dying every day because of the US occupational force and here we are talking about hornets and cows.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:52 pm
Quote:
That's fine and dandy, but it was a violation of international law, right? I mean, Serbia was a sovereign nation, and all, wasn't it? Therefore NATO had "no right to intervene in the affairs of another sovereign nation."


Yep.

Just because Clinton did something bad doesn't mean that anyone can do it, and it's okay...

Cycloptichorn
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Aris
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 02:56 pm
Ticomaya wrote:
That's fine and dandy, but it was a violation of international law, right? I mean, Serbia was a sovereign nation, and all, wasn't it? Therefore NATO had "no right to intervene in the affairs of another sovereign nation."

That's right.

NATO intervened for its own geopolitical objectives.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 08:46 am
Aris wrote:
rosborne979 wrote:
Sadam paying rewards for suicde attacks in Israel for one.


I fail to see how this qualifies as "Iraq was clearly producing radical fundamentalists prone to terrorism".


I'm not going to try to defend something I didn't say, what I said was:

rosborne979 wrote:
... the socio-political activities of many of these countries are clearly producing radical fundamentalists prone to terrorism.


"Many of these countries", not Iraq in particular. If we wanted to attack a country for producing terrorists, then we would have attacked Saudi Arabia or Syria or Pakistan. In the case of Pakistan we were able to broker a deal which broke the nuclear black market of their rogue senior scientist. I'm sure this was preferable to attacking them.

Aris wrote:
And even if Saddam paid for suicide attacks in Israel, I still fail to see what this has to do with a "clear and present danger" to the US and "mushroom clouds over NY".


I continue to think that Iraq was a strategic target, and not a tactical one. I haven't yet argued that "strategy" is a justifable reason for an attack, but I do think it's the core motivation in this administrations decision to do so.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 08:56 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
But this doesn't matter because I don't think Iraq was attacked because of this activity. I think Iraq was selected as a convenient example to the other cows. Iraq just happend to be the piece on the chessboard upon which all the power and risk was focused. Not only do they control oil reserves (power), but they also had very few friends (nobody liked Sadam), and Sadam was not doing himself any favors by hampering the exposure of his lack of WMD's, it only made him a more viable target. A short sighted strategy based on the assumption that the US would be paralyzed into inaction the way it had been or ten years. Obviously he underestimated the changes which have occured in recent history.


It is morally wrong, and a heinous crime, to attack a sovereign nation for the reasons you have listed here....


Ok, I left out some things in that post... If it were done merely as an example, then I think I agree with you, but what if it was more than just an example. What if I also include the strategic reasons which I listed for Aris above?

Is it immoral then? I'm asking this question sincerely, because I'm not sure I know the answer yet myself. The question of strategic action versus tactical response has always been a tricky one for me, especially in light of the weapons capabilities available in our modern world.

Let's suppose that the US were convinced, really convinced, that inaction along these lines would inevitably lead to a nuclear bomb being funded by terrorists, smuggled into the US and detonated in a major city (probably New York). Not because Iraq was directly involved in this action, but because the politics of the Middle East would lead to this result if something was not done to change the balance of economic power.

Wouldn't a government be required to do whatever it took to prevent such an event if they thought it was inevitible? Even if it meant taking strategic action?
0 Replies
 
DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 09:03 am
Check this thread for the two posts by JanW: http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=38370&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=70

JanW wrote:
Pre-emptive war is justified according to just war theory (JWT) if the threat is OBVIOUS and IMMINENT.


JanW wrote:
a preventive war (fight now to avoid future war) has a much higher standard of proof than pre-emptive war (which is considered emergency self-defense).


Belief of a future threat is not enough to justify a war.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 09:15 am
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Belief of a future threat is not enough to justify a war.


I understand what you're saying, but due to the over simplicity of this statement, I guess I'm not convinced yet.

Are there no cases in which a perceived future threat justifies an action (war)?

How strong must the "belief" be? What if we're convinced, really convinced?

How far into the future does this apply, what if I think something will happen tomorrow, or next year?

How big a threat are we talking about? Nuclear weapons exist, and terrorists have demonstrated motivations sufficient to use them (9/11). The material required to build these things is out there, and so is the knowledge.

I need more detail to the statement, "Belief of a future threat is not enough to justify a war."
0 Replies
 
Aris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 09:28 am
The just war theory is just that, a theory. Unless I am very much mistaken, international law strictly forbids pre-emptive attacks, regardless of any threat.
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Aris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 09:33 am
Let's take this a little further. At the moment, the US' nuclear arsenal and long range missiles are pointed at specific targets. Obviously, these targeted nations thus face an obvious and imminent threat, right? And the US is well known for invading and occupying other countries, right? So they have the right to nuke the US, right?

See how stupid it is to say that you have the right to attack obvious and imminent threats? Or is pre-emption something that only Americans think they have the right to do?
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 10:00 am
Aris wrote:
The just war theory is just that, a theory. Unless I am very much mistaken, international law strictly forbids pre-emptive attacks, regardless of any threat.


Do you have a source to cite?
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DrewDad
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 10:04 am
rosborne979 wrote:
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Belief of a future threat is not enough to justify a war.


I understand what you're saying, but due to the over simplicity of this statement, I guess I'm not convinced yet.

Are there no cases in which a perceived future threat justifies an action (war)?

How strong must the "belief" be? What if we're convinced, really convinced?

How far into the future does this apply, what if I think something will happen tomorrow, or next year?

How big a threat are we talking about? Nuclear weapons exist, and terrorists have demonstrated motivations sufficient to use them (9/11). The material required to build these things is out there, and so is the knowledge.

I need more detail to the statement, "Belief of a future threat is not enough to justify a war."


I'm afraid that my exposure to Just War Theory is fairly recent and fairly shallow at this point. Perhaps JanW can answer your questions.

From my own viewpoint, I would expect the case for war to meet an extremely high standard of proof.
0 Replies
 
Ticomaya
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 10:12 am
joefromchicago provides some helpful info on this subject here.
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Aris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 11:29 am
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Aris wrote:
The just war theory is just that, a theory. Unless I am very much mistaken, international law strictly forbids pre-emptive attacks, regardless of any threat.


Do you have a source to cite?


UN Charter

Quote:
Repertory of Practice of United Nations Organs, Supplement No. 6 (1979-1984), Volume III
Article 51
2
ARTICLE 51
TEXT OF ARTICLE 51
Nothing in the present Charter shall impair the inherent right of individual or collective self-defence if an armed attack occurs against a Member of the United Nations, until the Security Council has taken measures necessary to maintain international peace and security. Measures taken by Members in the exercise of this right of self-defence shall be immediately reported to the Security Council and shall not in any way affect the authority and responsibility of the Security Council under the present Charter to take at any time such action as it deems necessary in order to maintain or restore international peace and security.


So, to put it simply, the UN Charter forbids countries to wage war except in self-defense or when authorized by the UN Security Council to preserve or restore international peace. It is perfectly plain that none of the Security Council resolutions relating to Iraq authorized armed intervention and unless you are telling me that the US was under attack from Iraq, the US' preventive war is illegal. Hans Blix said it, Kofi Annan said it and The International Commission of Jurists (ICJ), based in Geneva sasid it. The ICJ charged the US and Britain with planning "an illegal invasion" of Iraq, amounting to a war of aggression. The ICJ comprises 60 of the world's top jurists on international law and humans rights. Louise Doswald-Beck, the commission's secretary-general, said the UN prohibition against the use of force, other than in self-defense, had been enshrined in the UN charter "for a good reason: to prevent states from using force as they felt so inclined."

The US' conduct, aside from violating the Charter of the United Nations, has also been violating, from 1991 to the present in Iraq, the Hague and Geneva Conventions, the Nuremberg Charter, and the laws of armed conflict , but that's another matter.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 11:35 am
Actually, if you go by the letter of the law the US and Iraq never ceased being at war since the invasion of Kuwait. Saddam was given the opportunity to prove he would change. He failed and we had to settle up. The last UN resolution 1441 gave the US permission to attack and overthrow Saddam. That, combined with prior UN resolutions gave the US the authority to do as it did. According to the letter of the law.
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 11:38 am
Aris wrote:
Let's take this a little further. At the moment, the US' nuclear arsenal and long range missiles are pointed at specific targets. Obviously, these targeted nations thus face an obvious and imminent threat, right? And the US is well known for invading and occupying other countries, right? So they have the right to nuke the US, right?


Of course. But then they face retaliation. A balance of such power is what stabilized the cold war for so long.

A preferable solution is for both sides is to negotiate a solution, but if a rogue group takes action and blows up buildings, then an escalation begins.

In the case of balanced powers, the fear of Mutually Assured Destruction proved sufficient to maintain the balance, but when a hyperpower is sees that maintaining the status quo results in attacks, it seems logical to break the status quo. That leaves it with two choices; acceed to demands, or attack strategically.

Aris wrote:
See how stupid it is to say that you have the right to attack obvious and imminent threats? Or is pre-emption something that only Americans think they have the right to do?


You anticipated my answer incorrectly. No, it is not stupid to say that you have the right to attack obvious and imminent threats. This is survival it its most basic level.

Terrorists attacked the US, and aspects of middle eastern culture created those terrorists. It's only reasonable for the US to want to change the culture in such a way as to minimize future threat. The only question remaining is how best to do it. Clearly, the Bush administration has decided that the best way is to attack strategic targets with long term goals in mind.

There are other methods of course. Each one fraught with pitfalls and potential. The main thing I can observe about the Bush doctrine is that it's simple, not elegant, and certainly not guaranteed to succeed, but quite easy for opponents to understand.
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Aris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 11:55 am
McGentrix wrote:
Actually, if you go by the letter of the law the US and Iraq never ceased being at war since the invasion of Kuwait. Saddam was given the opportunity to prove he would change. He failed and we had to settle up. The last UN resolution 1441 gave the US permission to attack and overthrow Saddam. That, combined with prior UN resolutions gave the US the authority to do as it did. According to the letter of the law.


Sorry, but that angle has been thoroughly debunked. You are repeating the claim by the UK's Attorney General, Lord Goldsmith - that the war was legal because Saddam Hussein had failed to comply with UN resolutions dating back to Iraq's invasion of Kuwait. This angle has received almost no support outside the UK or the United States from independent academic commentators.

First of all, even if Iraq has committed a material breach of the cease-fire resolution 687, it does not follow that a Member State such as the United States or United Kingdom is authorized to use force. It is the Security Council and not the individual Members that are authorized to take further steps under resolution 687. As has been noted by Professor Vaughan Lowe, 6 when resolution 687 was passed on 3 April 1991, the force that the Security Council had earlier authorised in resolution 678 in 1990 to restore the borders of Kuwait had effectively expired as the matter was back into the hands of the Council. It is clear from this resolution that the Security Council, and not individual Member States, is to take further steps as may be required.[/b]

And you know what? Resolution 1441, in Paragraph 13 states:
"Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations;"

I really wish you would pay attention to world events better before you make such laughable comments, McGentrix, because Annan recently stated that resolution 1441 clearly stated that there would be consequences but that it never authorized the use of force to anyone.
0 Replies
 
rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 11:56 am
Aris wrote:
MerlinsGodson wrote:
Aris wrote:
The just war theory is just that, a theory. Unless I am very much mistaken, international law strictly forbids pre-emptive attacks, regardless of any threat.


Do you have a source to cite?


UN Charter


I believe that the events of 9/11 caused the US to overide that charter. After 9/11 Bush made it pretty clear that the US considered not only the terrorists to be valid targets, but also any state which sponsored terrorist activity. This was stated explicitly.

You may not agree with this policy, but it's clearly the argument which the US is using to choose its targets.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 11:57 am
Force is a consequence.
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Aris
 
  1  
Reply Wed 10 Nov, 2004 12:00 pm
rosborne979 wrote:
Terrorists attacked the US, and aspects of middle eastern culture created those terrorists.

Gee, I wonder why, then, the vast majority of world renowned criminologists and geopolitical analysts blame US tactics of imperialism as the source of terrorism.

That's quite the bigoted statement there, rosborne. "Aspects of middle eastern culture created those terrorists".

What aspects are these?
0 Replies
 
 

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