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Wisconsin School OKs Creationism Teaching

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 15 Dec, 2004 06:49 pm
akaMech, You speak my language; man's creation of gods is the basis for all my other "beliefs" and understandings.
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Thu 16 Dec, 2004 07:05 pm
Very a-propos Snook,

Read the lead article, especially a "dream comment".



www.smh.com.au
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 08:19 am
If that was directed at me,
- It's 'Snood', not 'Snook', and
- I couldn't find any logical connection on the page you linked
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 11:47 am
Sorry Snood, (about your name)

There was a comment by the judge as to whether or not the defendent could tell his dreams from reality. The defendent answered "I hope so".

I'll admit that sometimes it's difficult. Humans have an evolutionary beneficial trait to see patterns in objects and numbers where there are none. Constellations, Numerology, Astrology and language are current examples.

Therefore it's always a good idea to have corroborating evidence from a third party if one sees, thinks, or hears something that is not quite adding up in the light of ones previous experiences.

When we look at Intelligent Design, or religion the corroboratig evidences are sorely lacking.

For instance no one else saw Moses "burning bush". No one else saw Isaiah's visions. And no one has shown that we cannot happen naturally Exclamation

The biography of John Nash, either the book or the movie, gives a good illustration of how real and damaging thing get when the mind cannot tell between actual observations and imaginary occurrences. I have misplaced my copy or else I'd reference it further but if you are interested in the powers of the mind as opposed to the powers of the brain it'd be worth looking up.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 05:28 pm
akaMechsmith wrote:
Sorry Snood, (about your name)

There was a comment by the judge as to whether or not the defendent could tell his dreams from reality. The defendent answered "I hope so".

I'll admit that sometimes it's difficult. Humans have an evolutionary beneficial trait to see patterns in objects and numbers where there are none. Constellations, Numerology, Astrology and language are current examples.

Therefore it's always a good idea to have corroborating evidence from a third party if one sees, thinks, or hears something that is not quite adding up in the light of ones previous experiences.

When we look at Intelligent Design, or religion the corroboratig evidences are sorely lacking.

For instance no one else saw Moses "burning bush". No one else saw Isaiah's visions. And no one has shown that we cannot happen naturally Exclamation

The biography of John Nash, either the book or the movie, gives a good illustration of how real and damaging thing get when the mind cannot tell between actual observations and imaginary occurrences. I have misplaced my copy or else I'd reference it further but if you are interested in the powers of the mind as opposed to the powers of the brain it'd be worth looking up.


Your logic seems unassailable. But there isn't much room for argument when the issues are matters of personal experience, and not something read in a book. I can't recreate my personal experience with the presence of God any more than I can describe the taste of a banana to someone who's never eaten one.Neither can I argue matters of faith in terms that satisfy the terminally pragmatic.
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Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 05:35 pm
Terminally pragmatic? I don't think it's gonna kill him, Boss . . .
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 05:44 pm
"Terminally pragmatic?" What the heck does it really mean?
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 06:11 pm
Exclamation Exclamation Exclamation Snood, you are absolutely correct. I concede Exclamation Exclamation

Matter of fact it seems terribly unfair to argue things that are a matter of faith when no two participants can have the same faith.


But now the Wisc. BOE is perfectly willing to teach (argue) things that can have no basis in observation or mathematics.

My teenage dreams concerning Dolly Parton and various other sex goddesses of the 50s and 60s should not be used as the basis of social education.

Another persons dreams of patterns and occurrences is used as the basis of many social interactions. Marriage, living conditions, social behavior, taxes etc. frequently stem from the way somebody imagines "his Personal Designer".

Somehow it seems very unfair that your imagination is taught as a valid theory and my imagination gets short shrift.

But nobody is teaching my imaginings as valid theories. The difference is in "deductions". (like on your 1040A) Laughing

Now a few quotes to round out that arguement.

Sherlock Holmes-- When you eliminate the impossible the truth must be in whats left. (bit of a paraphrase but memory fails) Sad

Winston Churchill "We have naught to fear but fear itself"

Engineering Rule--- KISS (Keep it simple, stupid)

Ockhams Razor---Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.

Computing--- GI-GO (Garbage In Garbage Out)

I hope that you are able to see the difference between ID as a matter of law and as an unbased personal opinion. Unfortunetly many people cannot Crying or Very sad .
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 06:14 pm
CI,

It means that we will be all dressed up with nowhere to go Laughing .

But IF there is a where there I probably won't need much firewood Very Happy
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akaMechsmith
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 06:23 pm
Thanks Snood, I like that Very Happy Very Happy

I am going to add "terminally pragmatic" to my list of attributes if I ever need a resume. Since I am retiring in two weeks I probably won't need it but it's nice to have Exclamation

Perhaps you would like my definition of a "dream or vision"

"A mind left alone, playing with itself"

Best M.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Dec, 2004 07:11 pm
Smile I'll buy that, mech.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 01:32 pm
The real world wins one, sorta:


Quote:
http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/main5.gif

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/us/nws/p/ap120a.gif


Ga. Evolution Stickers Ordered Removed

27 minutes ago

By DOUG GROSS, Associated Press Writer

ATLANTA - A federal judge Thursday ordered a suburban Atlanta school system to remove stickers in its high school biology textbooks that call evolution "a theory, not a fact," saying the disclaimers were an unconstitutional endorsement of religion.

http://img35.exs.cx/img35/7281/evpic2ns.jpg
AP Photo
State Superintendent of Schools Kathy Cox speaks
during an interview Feb. 20, 2004, in Atlanta. Most
of the public debate over Georgia's 800-page school
curriculum overhaul has focused on one word. Cox's
now-defunct push to remove the word 'evolution'
sparked sometimes incredulous responses, from the
desk of former President Jimmy Carter to the set of
'Saturday Night Live.'
(AP Photo/Gregory Smith)




"By denigrating evolution, the school board appears to be endorsing the well-known prevailing alternative theory, creationism or variations thereof, even though the sticker does not specifically reference any alternative theories," U.S. District Judge Clarence Cooper said.


The stickers were put in the books by school officials in Cobb County in 2002. They read: "This textbook contains material on evolution. Evolution is a theory, not a fact, regarding the origin of living things. This material should be approached with an open mind, studied carefully and critically considered."


"This is a great day for Cobb County students," said Michael Manely, an attorney for the parents who sued over the stickers. "They're going to be permitted to learn science unadulterated by religious dogma."


Doug Goodwin, a spokesman for Cobb County schools, had no immediate comment.


The schools added the stickers after more than 2,000 parents complained the textbooks presented evolution as fact, without mentioning rival ideas about the beginnings of life. Six parents of students and the American Civil Liberties Union (news - web sites) then sued, contending the disclaimers violated the separation of church and state.


At a trial in federal court in November, the school system defended the stickers as a show of tolerance, not religious activism.


"Science and religion are related and they're not mutually exclusive," school district attorney Linwood Gunn said. "This sticker was an effort to get past that conflict and to teach good science."


But the judge disagreed: "While evolution is subject to criticism, particularly with respect to the mechanism by which it occurred, the sticker misleads students regarding the significance and value of evolution in the scientific community."


The case is one of several battles waged in recent years in the Bible Belt over what role evolution should play in science books.


Last year, Georgia's education chief proposed a science curriculum that dropped the word "evolution" in favor of "changes over time." That plan was dropped amid protests by teachers.


A small bright spot, but certainly a harbinger. As the whacko fundies get their just due in court after court, the world of learning becomes a better place.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 03:36 pm
timberlandko said

Quote:
A small bright spot, but certainly a harbinger. As the whacko fundies get their just due in court after court, the world of learning becomes a better place
.

Will that trend continue if Bush is able to stack the courts with his constituent "wacko fundies"? I wonder?
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  1  
Reply Thu 13 Jan, 2005 03:36 pm
This could have significant impact on the class action suit in Dover Pa, because the Intel Design basis of that cases defense is gonna be argued on the "establishment clause ' of the Constitution. wandeljw had mentiond it ovr there on Bibliophiles thread about "who wants to know about evolution?"
Mebbe if youd be so kind as to slap this one over theere too. Much oblige.

PS, As an habitue of the Fundy region, I take offense at the misappropriation of an otherwise proper descriptive word of the folks so geographically disposed.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 09:32 am
OP-ED CONTRIBUTOR
Caught Between Church and State
By Susan Jacoby
The new challenges to teaching evolution are the product of
80 years of back-door pressure that has been mounting since
the Scopes trial.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/opinion/19jacoby.html?th
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 10:51 am
[URL=http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/19/opinion/19jacoby.html?th]The Article[/URL] wrote:

Perhaps the most insidious effect of the campaign against evolution has been avoidance of the subject by teachers, who, whatever their convictions, want to forestall trouble with fundamentalist parents. Recent surveys of high school biology teachers have found that avoidance of evolution is common among instructors throughout the nation.

The singular achievement of the fundamentalist minority has been to render evolution controversial enough to silence many teachers who know better. Only now, when the religious right is no longer satisfied with avoidance but is demanding that schools add anti-Darwinist intelligent design to the curriculum, are defenders of evolution fighting back against the intimidation that has worked so well since the premature declaration of the death of fundamentalism in the 1920's.


As the pendulum swings...
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 11:39 am
While we all worry about the outcome of the war in Iraq we are blind to the fact that there is an ongoing war right here in the states. It is in fact a religious war. Between those who would impose their religious beliefs [the Fundies] through legislation and those who believe in the separation of church and state.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 01:12 pm
'Intelligent design' taught in Pennsylvania

Wednesday, January 19, 2005 Posted: 11:35 AM EST (1635 GMT)

HARRISBURG, Pennsylvania (AP) -- High school students heard about "intelligent design" for the first time Tuesday in the Pennsylvania school district that attracted national attention by requiring students to be made aware of it as an alternative to the theory of evolution


Intelligent design taught in Pennsylvania
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rosborne979
 
  1  
Reply Wed 19 Jan, 2005 02:59 pm


This is really crazy, not only have they now got religion buried in Biology class, but they are sending mixed signals by not talking about it in class.

The Article wrote:
Biology teacher Jennifer Miller said although she was able to make a smooth transition to her evolution lesson after the statement was read, some students were upset that administrators would not entertain any questions about intelligent design.

"They were told that if you have any questions, to take it home," Miller said.


If it's scientific, then they should definitely discuss it in class, not send it home. But if it's religious, they shouldn't mention it in class in the first place.

The first thing the kids are going to learn from this lesson is that adults don't know their ass from their elbow.
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snood
 
  1  
Reply Thu 20 Jan, 2005 10:50 am
That whole mindset - "if it's religious, it shouldn't even be mentioned in class" - just sounds so damn goofy and insecure to me...
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