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Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

 
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 08:13 am
Foxfyre wrote:
DTTT'S statement offensive but the name he chooses to post under is beneath contempt. But that is obviously his intention....rile everybody up and then laugh. George is right. Ignore him.


I said to ignore him too. If we don't, he'll destroy every thread he appears on. We've had this trouble before. If only we could all learn from our mistakes.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 08:17 am
Well, Nimh, I can answer with my opinions...

The republicans have had a wonderful opportunity handed them during a historic time period. They have control of all branchs of government and in my opinion, they have squandered it.

Spending is my number one peeve. It's completely out of control. Government waste and pork has bloated our federal government to the point that it could survive an artic winter with no food. It's unrecognizable as a republican run government.

Accountability to the public is another peeve of mine. I'd love to see more open meetings and less secrecy from both congress and the presidency. I'm not saying that there isn't a need for secrecy when it comes to defending our nation, but not everything the government does is part of that defense. I believe each representative should be given a shadow journalist that reports on what that representative has done and how they vote and what committees they serve on and what meetings they attend and which lobbyists they meet with and how much they spend for lunch. There is no defense issues there, just accountability.

All the things I have read about the republican party and what it stands for is being tested right now. In my opinion, they are failing some of the primary goals set before them.

But, just to wrap this up, I believe they are doing a better job than the democrats, and will continue my registration in the Republican party because even with some failings, I still believe they are doing many right things.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:04 am
Nimh, if you haven't seen my criticisms of the GOP, then you haven't been reading my posts.
In short the GOP holds the power and, in my opinion are using it ineffectively in several areas:

1) I haven't seen a lot of fiscal restraint and I am reminding my elected representatives of that regularly.

2) What there is of an immigration policy is deplorable.

3) They finally got off the dime and did something about reducing our dependency on foreign oil, but they're also going to have to be brave, look the environmentalist wackos in the eye, and clear the way for building a lot more refineries. Increasing the oil supply won't help if all refineries are already operating at full capacity and all are.

4) I would like for them to appreciate the President's vision for more manned space exploration and not be so timid about showing personal support to at least explore the possibilities.
(We haven't built any new refineries in several decades.)

5) I believe privatized social security investment accounts are absolutely the way to go in the future and I have been disgusted that they are bowing to political expediency instead of doing the right thing there.

6) I am doing what I can to convince them not to let the Hubble die.

Having said that, I believe our President to be honest, sincere, and so far he is not given to posturing or empty rhetoric--he's driving the Democrats crazy because he actually means what he says and does what he says he will do. (They aren't used to that.)

For all their shortcomings, the GOP overall is pointed in the right direction. most demonstrate intellectual honesty when they're not running for the tall grass, and they do have the right view of empowering Americans to make things better rather than seeing the government as the only way that can be accomplished.

And they are all 100% behind our President and our troops in the Middle East initiatives and that saves lives and will help bring things to a speedier conclusion. (No need to restate my opinion of the 'wrong war - wrong place - wrong time' Democrats on that issue or how I think their highly publicized rhetoric has been detrimental to success.)

So the GOP is still heads and shoulders above the Democrats who seem to have no constructive ideas about much of anything and whose only ideas or game plans are to be obstructionist about everything.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:06 am
Quote:
The Left, in turn, would be foolhardy not to make space for these potential allies. Why reject people who share so many of your social concerns, only because they don't align on some particular lightning rod issues? Why allow those to become lightning rod issues, when there is so much otherwise to share?

In short, in America, where is the equivalent of the Christian Union? And where are the liberals who are willing to accept Christian Union-type voters, even embrace them, as the potential allies they are?


I haven't had the chance to read many of the recent posts here, but I feel the need to weigh in on the subject at hand. For this reason, I'm going to speak my mind without reference to the points of other posters.

Obviously, I have read this post of nimh's (not having had the time to look back for the back ground discussion.)

I agree with you nimh on this point above. If there were an organized group with that kind of strong conviction and they could join with the liberals on other issues of civil rights (choice, separation of ch & st, a commitment to respect the rights and privacy of others and and a commitment to strive for world peace when possible........I hope you're not confusing these liberal values with what you refer to as "libertine"), they would be more than welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

What I think we should not do as liberals is continue to apologize for our core values. Most liberals in this country are not radical. Citizens of almost every other country in the World know this. It is only in the U.S. that we are considered to be extreme. And we've allowed ourselves to be labeled as extreme by not speaking up proudly for our values. We haven't supported ourselves as we should have been doing.

Perhaps it's because we have a commitment to fairness and respect for the rights of others that we have allowed the situation to deteriorate as we have. But for whatever reason, we've accepted the labels that have been assigned to us. Our response to these labels has been to try to be better. To not inflame. To ignore the labels in hopes that, if we don't address them, they will go away. We've put our energies into trying to avoid the appearance of extremism as it is defined by the conservatives. And in so doing we have allowed ourselves to be cast in a role that does not fit.

We have to challenge these labels. We need to stand up for what we value and stop apologizing for it. It's not enough to simply notice that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes. We should be doing everything we can to help others notice and speak up as well. We should begin to point out the process by which the New Radical Republicans have taken power.

How many of us realize that if the Republicans manage to successfully use the "nuclear option" there will be no checks and balances left in this country? In my opinion, if the conservatives and liberals who care about the American way of life, American government as we've known it up to now don't join forces and resist this blatant power grab, we're going to see fundamental changes in our system of government. Recovery will be a formidable task.

Without the filibuster, the minority party will have no method of checking lopsided extremism. Our government should represent all the people, not just those who have lots of money and a need to coerce others to live according to their extremist rules. I respect the fact that there are some real differences in the points of view of Americans today. That's fine and healthy. But the total destruction of the minority's (and it's an extremely small minority) ability to demand that judges, laws and policies represent a compromise of values will leave us in a frighteningly dangerous position.

Liberals should stop apologizing. I said we should stop apologizing. And we should proactively promote our values through the use of ethical public relations techniques (that's advertising and subtle suggestion.......sales.) If we don't do this, we're in for a bucket of trouble and it won't be just here in the U.S.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:18 am
Quote:
3) They finally got off the dime and did something about reducing our dependency on foreign oil, but they're also going to have to be brave, look the environmentalist wackos in the eye, and clear the way for building a lot more refineries. Increasing the oil supply won't help if all refineries are already operating at full capacity and all are.


Have you ever thought of putting money into alternative sources of energy? All other sources of energy are superior to oil in every way except expediency. The Republicans admit this themselves.

Quote:
5) I believe privatized social security investment accounts are absolutely the way to go in the future and I have been disgusted that they are bowing to political expediency instead of doing the right thing there.


What exactly is "bowing to political expediency?" If you mean that they've been forced to consider the opinion of 49 per cent of the voters and have recognized the dangers they face if they continue to push for less and less democracy, then I suggest you re-think your priorities.

Quote:
Having said that, I believe our President to be honest, sincere, and so far he is not given to posturing or empty rhetoric--he's driving the Democrats crazy because he actually means what he says and does what he says he will do. (They aren't used to that.)


It's not Bush that's doing anything. And there's very little that is honest or sincere about him. The extremists in your party are driving us crazy because of the utter audacity with which they have dismembered our representative government.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:21 am
Thank you for your responses, McG and Fox! Great. I'd agree with you on both counts, McG. With Fox, unsurprisingly, I agree only on 1 out of 6 - the point on spending. Pork is unprecedently out of hand with this administration. (Well, and I dont know much about the Hubble).

Fox, I gather that of your six points of criticisms regarding the Republican Party, (only) numbers 1 and 2 (and perhaps 3) would count as criticisms of the President and his administration as well?
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:37 am
Lola wrote:
Quote:
The Left, in turn, would be foolhardy not to make space for these potential allies. Why reject people who share so many of your social concerns, only because they don't align on some particular lightning rod issues? Why allow those to become lightning rod issues, when there is so much otherwise to share?

In short, in America, where is the equivalent of the Christian Union? And where are the liberals who are willing to accept Christian Union-type voters, even embrace them, as the potential allies they are?


I haven't had the chance to read many of the recent posts here, but I feel the need to weigh in on the subject at hand. For this reason, I'm going to speak my mind without reference to the points of other posters.

Obviously, I have read this post of nimh's (not having had the time to look back for the back ground discussion.)

I agree with you nimh on this point above. If there were an organized group with that kind of strong conviction and they could join with the liberals on other issues of civil rights (choice, separation of ch & st, a commitment to respect the rights and privacy of others and and a commitment to strive for world peace when possible........I hope you're not confusing these liberal values with what you refer to as "libertine"), they would be more than welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

What I don't think we should do as liberals is continue to apologize for our core values. Most liberals in this country are not radical. Citizens of almost every other country in the World know this. It is only in the U.S. that we are considered to be extreme. And we've allowed ourselves to be labeled as extreme by not speaking up proudly for our values. We haven't supported ourselves as we should have been doing.

Perhaps it's because we have a commitment to fairness and respect for the rights of others that we have allowed the situation to deteriorate as we have. But for whatever reason, we've accepted the labels that have been assigned to us. Our response to these labels has been to try to be better. To not inflame. To ignore the labels in hopes that, if we don't address them, they will go away. We've put our energies into trying to avoid the appearance of extremism as it is defined by the conservatives. And in so doing we have allowed ourselves to be cast in a role that does not fit.

We have to challenge these labels. We need to stand up for what we value and stop apologizing for it. It's not enough to simply notice that the Emperor is not wearing any clothes. We should be doing everything we can to help others notice and speak up as well. We should begin to point out the process by which the New Radical Republicans have taken power.

How many of us realize that if the Republicans manage to successfully use the "nuclear option" there will be no checks and balances left in this country? In my opinion, if the conservatives and liberals who care about the American way of life, American government as we've known it up to now don't join forces and resist this blatant power grab, we're going to see fundamental changes in our system of government. Recovery will be a formidable task.

Without the filibuster, the minority party will have no method of checking lopsided extremism. Our government should represent all the people, not just those who have lots of money and a need to coerce others to live according to their extremist rules. I respect the fact that there are some real differences in the points of view of Americans today. That's fine and healthy. But the total destruction of the minority's (and it's an extremely small minority) ability to demand that judges, laws and policies represent a compromise of values will leave us in a frighteningly dangerous position.

Liberals should stop apologizing. I said we should stop apologizing. And we should proactively promote our values through the use of ethical public relations techniques (that's advertising and subtle suggestion.......sales.) If we don't do this, we're in for a bucket of trouble and it won't be just here in the U.S.


Lola - perhaps you're not aware that there has been a give and take between the majority and minority in the Senate throughout its history.

As this article shows, the Republicans attempt to stop Democratic filibuster on judicial nominations is really not that novel an idea.

Quote:
In a recent article in the Harvard Journal of Law and Public Policy, Martin B. Gold and Dimple Gupta make a similar point, outlining a number of examples of how majority votes in the Senate accomplished procedural changes, sometimes without even altering the standing rules of the Senate.

'Throughout Senate history, a simple majority has changed Senate procedures governing debate and by setting precedents or adopting Standing Orders that altered the operation of the Standing Rules (of the Senate) without amending their actual text,' they write.

According to Mr. Gold and Ms. Gupta, in 1977, 1979, 1980 and 1987, Sen. Robert Byrd of West Virginia, while serving as Democratic leader, either threatened or forced the Senate to alter procedures by majority vote. In each case, a minority of senators applied the rules creatively to obstruct and in each case procedures to return to the previous status quo were established by either the threat or actual application of a simple majority vote.

Republicans won't act until later this spring, after Democrats implement additional filibusters. But then they should re-assert majority control. Doing otherwise is a de facto change in over 200 years of Senate history.

So, despite the unfortunate conventional wisdom that Senate Republicans are doing something novel, clarifying procedures by way of majority vote has been done through the history of the Senate as majority control has regularly jousted with minority obstructionism. Re-asserting that the Senate can take steps to alter its procedures is consistent with precedent and constitutional intent: It's neither 'new,' nor 'nuclear.'

http://www.washingtontimes.com/op-ed/20050316-084145-5699r.htm


I highly doubt Senator Byrd or the Democrats will want to go into detail of how he filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or will they??
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:53 am
JustWonders wrote:


I highly doubt Senator Byrd or the Democrats will want to go into detail of how he filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or will they??


I suspect the ole impeial wizard is too wrapped up in his new love affair to worry much about politics right about now:

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/3/17/120037.shtml

Quote:

Sen. Barbara Boxer got a bit carried away during MoveOn.org's "Rally for Fair Judges" in Washington, D.C. yesterday, and at one point referred to the event's keynote speaker - former Ku Klux Klansman Robert Byrd - as "the love of my life."


Picture a K or triple-K rated movie with Barbara Bagger and the Kleagle?

I mean, showing that in highschools and middleschools would probably bring the teen pregnancy rate down to zero just like when Ike was in office and have all the kids out buying golf clubs instead of condoms and what not...
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:54 am
Quote:
I highly doubt Senator Byrd or the Democrats will want to go into detail of how he filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or will they??


Notice how JW repeats and repeats this insinuation about Senator Byrd. The more you repeat it, the truer it is.

Is this an ethical tactic? If so, both sides can play the game.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:56 am
Good post JW. And we should point out that in the history of the Senate, judicial appointees have not been filibustered by the minority. At least they haven't until now.

The majority is not threatening to do away with the filibuster but only to not allow it to delay critical judicial appointments who deserve a timely up or down vote so they can get on with their lives. Several of the appointees were already confirmed once and now, the second time around, the Democrats are threatening to delay their confirmation. That is nothing other than rancourous obstructionism of the highest degree and it should not be allowed to stand.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 09:59 am
Quote:
I mean, showing that in highschools and middleschools would probably bring the teen pregnancy rate down to zero just like when Ike was in office and have all the kids out buying golf clubs instead of condoms and what not...


You have something against good, clean, healthy sex, gunga? A little hung up about it? Golf clubs are good.......but so is sex. Sex should be enjoyed responsibly not denigrated and avoided.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:04 am
Quote:
Good post JW. And we should point out that in the history of the Senate, judicial appointees have not been filibustered by the minority. At least they haven't until now.


And we should point out that there has rarely been a time in which there has been such a near-even split in the so-called majority and minority parties when the controlling party has been both so extreme and so disrespectful of the concerns of the 49 percent of the population who disagree with them. A complete break down of all checks and balances is not good for anyone except for those control freaks bent on imposing their values on the rest of us.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:07 am
Lola wrote:
If there were an organized group with that kind of strong conviction and they could join with the liberals on other issues of civil rights (choice, separation of ch & st, a commitment to respect the rights and privacy of others and and a commitment to strive for world peace when possible........I hope you're not confusing these liberal values with what you refer to as "libertine"), they would be more than welcome, as far as I'm concerned.

I'm not sure whether I got my example across because no - most obviously, the Christian Union definitely would NOT be able to "join with the liberals" on issues like abortion, or whatever collection of items is grouped together as "separation of church and state" subjects.

They are fiercely Christian, after all - that's the whole point. That's why they used to be considered "the small right", on the far end of the political spectre. When it comes to their religious beliefs, they can not join our agenda - they do not believe in abortion, gay marriage and what not. It's part of their very raison d'etre.

And there's the rub. Because what I was picking up and reacting to, seems to be literally echoed in your post: they are not "welcome" if they don't share our beliefs on those moral issues.

And that, I think, is very regrettable, both from a human and a strategical point of view. Because, to go back to the example of the Christian Union, forsure they are deeply conservative on those issues; but we would agree more with them even than with the average centrist when it comes to safeguarding anti-poverty programmes and provisions, ensuring good pensions and benefits, generously budgetting development aid, exhibiting respect for the beliefs and sensitivities of Muslims and other groups in our multicultural society, offering a generous refuge for asylum-seekers - the whole socio-economic and (multi)cultural agenda.

No, not on women's emancipation, obviously - they believe a woman's place is at home. And not on drugs - no legalisation of marihuana for them. But - and? Leftwing coalitions have always been large tents, accomodating everything from near-communist to centrist-liberal, from populist to technocrat, from deeply religious to stridently secular. What I observe in American liberalism is that those specific moral agenda issues have now become a kind of must-meet touchstone of prospective allies: if they don't agree with you on those, they're not welcome. And I'm puzzled and a bit disgruntled about how come. Because that means sacrificing other agendas that used to be central to Progressives, notably a strident advocacy for the working folk and the poor. After all, far more could be achieved on those with the help of the religious people who share our views on them - but you are losing that opportunity by only welcoming those allies who agree with you on choice and church & state. By making those issues your "core values", when I would have thought that a Progressive's core value was to strive for the equitable spread of knowledge, power and wealth.

And that, of course, is exactly where the Right wants you - has wanted you ever since it started the Culture wars. So yes, you are right when you write that "for whatever reason", you've "accepted the labels that have been assigned" to you, but I take that to mean something else. Your response, in my view, hasnt simply been to "not inflame" and "ignore the labels in hopes that, if we don't address them, they will go away". It looks to me like the very opposite; you've let them set the parameters of the debate by virtually embracing their definition of those labels. By saying, yes, we are the folks who think that narrow selection of cultural issues (abortion, church and state) are the touchstone of our beliefs, the evaluation criteria we use to define who is 'one of us' or not!

Liberals have long included leaders of strong religious beliefs, men who would never have assented to pro-choice or gay marriage positions - but were at the very forefront of the struggle for civil rights for blacks, who championed and inspired the social ideals behind the New Deal. They were not just welcome, they were prominent. They started disappearing in the sixties or seventies, and then were pushed out, way I see it, from the 80s onwards, when the Right's culture wars apparently succeeded in making even the liberals themselves believe that one could not be a liberal if one didn't "join" in on those hotbutton issues of choice, separation of ch & st, etc.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:16 am
This is an article that really made me rethink matters on this specific subject a while ago:

Quote:
WHEN THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT WAS LEFT.
Faith Full

by E. J. Dionne, Jr.

The New Republic
Issue date: 02.28.05

Preachers," the critic declared, "are not called upon to be politicians but to be soul-winners." As it happens, this is not some secular liberal denying faith's legitimate influence on politics. The words are Jerry Falwell's. His scorn-- he made the statement in 1965--was directed at the church-based civil rights movement in the South. Falwell knew that, without the black church, there would have been no civil rights movement. It bothered conservatives like Falwell that the civil rights preachers were, well, so judgmental, so eager to associate their cause with God's. "If we are wrong, God Almighty is wrong!" a young reverend named Martin Luther King Jr. declared in December 1955 at the Holt Street Baptist Church in Montgomery, Alabama. "If we are wrong, Jesus of Nazareth was merely a utopian dreamer and never came down to earth!"

How strange it is that American liberalism, nourished by faith and inspired by the scriptures from the days of abolitionism, is now defined--by its enemies but occasionally by its friends--as implacably hostile to religion. The greatest victory of the religious right is not its success in turning out the vote of religious conservatives. The Christian Right has damaged liberalism most by calling forth a liberal reaction against religion's public role. Too many liberals have been complicit in the conservatives' redefinition of "moral values" as always involving sex, and "religious activism" as always referring to the activities of Falwell and his friends. Confronted with a new religious right from the 1970s on, many liberals were at least as eager to attack the "religious" as to turn back the "right."

Yes, liberalism has always included a strong strain of secularism, a proper wariness about the abuses of religious authority, and a particular fear of the Catholic Church. "Rationalism" was seen as the enemy of "obscurantism," "reason" the antithesis of "faith." The separation of church and state was an important liberal victory for freedom of conscience--even if it is forgotten that disestablishment was a cause pursued with passion by devout believers loyal to denominations that found themselves in the minority.

But, precisely because the United States did not experience the religious wars as Europe did, American liberalism was always more tempered in its attitude toward faith than the European variety. By and large, religious Americans returned the favor, embracing the regime of liberty and pluralism. The current conflict between liberalism and religion is thus a break from U.S. history, an anachronistic replay of Europe's nineteenth-century battles between the schoolteacher and the priest.



American liberalism cannot be understood apart from an understanding of its religious sources. No less a rationalist than John Dewey, himself nurtured in New England Congregationalism from which he drifted, could call the great fundamentalist William Jennings Bryan "the backbone of philanthropic social interest, of social reform through political action, of pacifism, of popular education." Today, Bryan is best known for his passionate opposition to Darwin and evolution. But it was Bryan, says historian Michael Kazin, who "transformed his party from a bulwark of conservatism ... into a bastion of anticorporate Progressivism." He preached "a simple pragmatic Gospel: Only mobilized citizens, imbued with Christian morality, could save the nation from 'predatory' interests and the individuals who did their bidding." As historian Garry Wills has noted, Bryan could point with pride to the success of the many causes he had championed "in their embattled earlier stages." The catalogue is impressive: women's suffrage, the federal income tax, railroad regulation, currency reform, state initiative and referendum, a Department of Labor, campaign fund disclosure, and opposition to capital punishment.

Bryan's progressivism was not eccentric among believers. The Social Gospel arose in the early twentieth century from the reflections of religious social workers confronting the contradiction between the promises of God's kingdom and the conditions in the slums. Christian social activists were among those who cheered Theodore Roosevelt in 1912 when he declared, "We stand at Armageddon and we battle for the Lord." The Lord, in this instance, was presumed to be on the side of TR's Progressive Party, a cause to which The New Republic's editor Herbert Croly was also devoted.

The progressive spirit was alive within Catholicism no less than within Protestantism. The Catholic Bishops' 1919 Program of Social Reconstruction was a primary source of New Deal ideas and laid the basis for the close cooperation between the Church and the trade-union movement in the 1930s and 1940s. The link between religion and social reform was not artificial; it was the natural outgrowth of religion's skepticism of materialism and its search for what was called in the civil rights years a "beloved community." The religiously inspired could not help but question the impact of industrialization on family life--and on the morals of those forced into impoverished urban neighborhoods. What's striking about the American religious reformers is that they did not, on the whole, lapse into nostalgia for rural life. They were occasionally utopian, but most were realistic, and, as Bryan's record shows, creative in the reforms they proposed.

If religious reformers nurtured liberalism's communitarian wing, American liberalism also strengthened the advocates of toleration and pluralism within the religious community. The great reforms in the Catholic Church at the Second Vatican Council were championed by American bishops, inspired by John Courtney Murray. The American theologian helped overturn the Church's previous orthodoxy that, in some catechisms, had declared liberalism "a sin," and Murray deserves part of the credit for Pope John XXIII's achievement. American liberalism may thus have helped ease Europe's conflicts between believers and secularists. That makes all the more peculiar our recent importation of European-style religious politics.

Religious thinkers influenced liberals' views on foreign policy as well as social justice, perhaps none more than Reinhold Niebuhr, the great Protestant theologian and frequent contributor to this magazine. He transformed American liberalism by teaching liberals about Augustine and original sin. It was in these pages that Niebuhr famously cited a British journal to the effect that original sin is the only empirically verifiable doctrine of the Christian Church. (Niebuhr himself is usually credited with the line, but he was no plagiarist.) Liberalism was easily attacked for resting on a soupy optimism about human nature and for a self-righteous idealism that had little self-awareness. With the rise of the Nazis and the Stalinists in the '30s, this optimism could not hold. Niebuhr imbued liberalism with realism--about the world in general and human nature in particular--which brought him his share of critics. But he rescued the liberal creed from sentimentalism. He was tough on liberals who thought they could stay out of the world's conflicts (which is why the hawks love him), but also tough on liberals who would engage in crusades and disguise self-interest behind noble, utopian claims (which means that the doves underrate him). Niebuhr, a brilliant aphorist, provided liberals with a credo: "Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's capacity for injustice makes democracy necessary." Hope for democracy is tempered by an awareness of sin that only reinforces the democratic imperative. No wonder Arthur Schlesinger Jr. announced the creation of a notional organization called Atheists for Niebuhr. No wonder Abraham Joshua Heschel, another giant in the mid-twentieth-century dialogue between religion and liberalism, would write upon Niebuhr's death that "the world will be darker without you." On this, as on other matters, Heschel was right.



It would be decidedly un-Niebuhrian to believe that the American love affair between religion and liberalism could continue on uninterrupted by contention. It was, to begin with, a love affair between liberalism and certain kinds of religion. There was an old Christian Right--its history is documented by the historian Leo Ribuffo--that had nothing in common with liberalism, at times veering toward anti-Semitism and fascism. There were liberals and socialists who never lost their antipathy to religion as an opiate of the masses, and some, like Paul Blanshard, who never gave up their mistrust of the Roman Church. There were conservative Christians who, as Niebuhr wrote in this magazine in 1960, held to "the old individualistic Calvinism, which assumed the private virtues of industry, honesty, and thrift made public policy in dealing with rising industry unnecessary." There were segregationists who believed the separation of the races as decreed by God.

But there can be no denying that a rupture occurred between liberalism and traditional religious progressives in the '60s. That decade saw the rise of a new skepticism about social control and a new emphasis on personal autonomy in moral matters. Until then, most religious progressives believed that self-improvement and self-control were intimately linked to the cause of social reform itself. They were prepared to use the state not only to regulate rapacious capitalists, but also the behavior of individuals. Their great experiment in this regard was Prohibition, which failed, but the link it embodied between self-improvement and social improvement endured in progressive causes from trade unionism to civil rights. Yet, since the '60s, as Peter Steinfels has said, "American liberalism has shifted its passion from issues of economic deprivation and concentration of power to issues of gender, sexuality, and personal choice. ... Once trade unionism, regulation of the market, and various welfare measures were the litmus tests of secular liberalism. Later, desegregation and racial justice were the litmus tests. Today the litmus test is abortion...." And, one might add, stem-cell research, gay marriage, and Hollywood culture.

This rupture, and not simply shrewd organizing by Jerry Falwell, Ralph Reed, and Karl Rove, accounts for the rise of the religious right. The abortion issue in particular creates a new estrangement between pro-life liberals (particularly Catholics like Steinfels) and the broader liberal cause. The liberalism of Niebuhr's day lived comfortably within an old-fashioned world evoked movingly by Niebuhr's daughter Elisabeth Sifton in her book The Serenity Prayer. Contemporary liberalism is conflicted about that world, and for good reason, given the huge advances in freedom over the last 40 years for women, homosexuals, and, of course, African Americans. Niebuhr, himself a strong civil rights advocate, helped pioneer many of these changes. But it is undeniable that the new moral issues split the very religious institutions that, in an earlier time, were largely sympathetic to liberalism's demands for social reform. One wonders: What would William Jennings Bryan do? Would he be furious at Rove for hijacking evangelicals into the party that supports corporate power and wants to reverse the progressive tax code? Or would Bryan, reluctantly perhaps, join with Republican social conservatives to defend his values and his faith?



That wwwjbd question may seem beside the point to latter-day liberals. They would note, correctly, that a significant share of the religious community is already allied with liberalism, or at least the Democratic Party: a large majority of Jews, nearly half of Roman Catholics, a growing number of mainline Protestants, a significant minority of evangelicals, and most followers of non-Judeo-Christian religions. As for right-wing Christians, they are no more likely to support liberal causes than they were in Niebuhr's or Heschel's day. And secular voters represent a slowly rising share of the electorate.

This is true, but it fails to address the tug of social conservatism on many Americans who are otherwise open to the very kind of liberalism that Bryan (or, for that matter, Niebuhr) represented. It fails to deal seriously with religious moderates whose social views are broadly tolerant but who share with conservatives an unease about the direction of the culture--people who may be sympathetic to gays and lesbians but have no use for wardrobe malfunctions or trashy television. It fails to take seriously that there is loss as well as gain when too sharp a line is drawn between those in politics who emphasize social change and those who emphasize self-improvement. You do not have to be a neoconservative to believe that the public interest does depend, at least in part, on private virtue.

Many have longed for a new Reinhold Niebuhr to inspire a new generation of religious liberals. I have shared in that longing. But it is doubtful that even Niebuhr could be Niebuhr now, and, in any event, can you think of a talk show that would book him? But the ground might be prepared for a sort of second coming, a renewed dialogue between liberalism and faith communities. Liberals could begin by abandoning prejudices about people of faith. Liberals, after all, regularly call on others to abandon their own prejudices. Liberals should feel no obligation to defend all aspects of commercial culture. When TV networks and Hollywood exploit sex to make money, shouldn't liberals ask why it is that the very free market so revered by the right wing promotes values that the very same right wing claims to despise? The coarsening of the culture that traditionalist conservatives denounce is abetted by the very media concentration that economic conservatives defend. Why are liberals so tongue-tied in exposing this contradiction?

Even when they espouse "choice" on abortion, is it so difficult for liberals to describe the choice itself as tragic and to insist that the surest way to reduce the number of abortions is to improve social conditions, especially the condition of the poor? The vast majority of religious Americans, including many who call themselves conservative, still feel a calling to the poor, still understand that families have interests that the market may not defend, and still worry, as Bryan did, about concentrated power--economic as well as political. These, too, are moral issues.

Conservatives like the religious landscape just the way it is, which is why liberals should take on the, yes, prophetic challenge of rearranging it. Kazin, for one, suggests this would be worth the effort. In the United States, he writes, "[T]he Left has never advanced without a moral awakening entangled with notions about what the Lord would have us do."



E. J. Dionne, Jr. is a columnist for The Washington Post, a senior fellow at the Brookings Institution, and a professor at Georgetown University.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:19 am
Everyone is welcome, as far as I'm concerned nimh. But what I think you are missing is that we have no organized Christians who care about the poor, other than to use the opportunity to proselytize.

I welcome any and all religious people who are not determined to force me or my fellow citizens to live according to their religious beliefs.

We don't have that here. What we have is the opposite of that.
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:24 am
Lola wrote:
Quote:
I highly doubt Senator Byrd or the Democrats will want to go into detail of how he filibustered the 1964 Civil Rights Act. Or will they??


Notice how JW repeats and repeats this insinuation about Senator Byrd. The more you repeat it, the truer it is.

Is this an ethical tactic? If so, both sides can play the game.


Does anyone else notice Lola's continuation of the line "The more you repeat it, the truer it is." as though it means something?

If something is true, it's true. Instead of discussing the issue, or refuting the point, you are trying to sway the conversation towards some new idea you have had. The one thread you have created is interesting, but I think you should keep your observations to that thread. Perhaps copying and pasting examples to that thread would be a better method instead of disrupting every thread a conservative posts in by making us read repeated examples of what you consider to be some sort of technique that is learned when one chooses to be a conservative.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:26 am
And I, nor are most liberals hostile to religion. I AM hostile to the imposition of religion on anyone.

We, as liberals have allowed ourselves to be identified as anti-religious. And the artlcle above is a good example of how this has been accomplished. Repeat the liberals are anti-religious enough times and the truth will not matter. Forget the truth, sell a lie. That's what is going on in this country now. And we should be fighting fire with fire. I believe it's possible to use their ammunition against them. And we can do it and maintain our own integrity. All we have to do is point out their lack of integrity by use of the same methods they use to lie about us.

The point of the article above is that liberals are anti-religious. Which we are not. Deal with the fact that we are being defined as something we are NOT before you talk to me about anything else.

Liberals are NOT anti-religious. We are pro-respect for all religions.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:30 am
Quote:
Does anyone else notice Lola's continuation of the line "The more you repeat it, the truer it is." as though it means something?


An example of a less than subtle attempt. Your effort is worth nothing more than a B-. Try for a more accurate shot with a smaller hammer. Don't worry, you'll learn. Take the same course Mr. Gannon took and you'll at least improve your score by a half a percentage point.

Now I'm going for a walk so I can regain my sense of humor.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:31 am
liberals are pro-respect for all religions, not just the religion of the majority.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2005 10:32 am
Liberals are for fairness.
0 Replies
 
 

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