Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

Just back from a delightful winter escape to Jupiter Florida.

I recognize the truth in all of the several familiar elements of the American public neurosis listed in the piece. They are merely characteristic traits and we neither get, nor deserve and special consideration for having them. I don't agree on the benefits (to anyone) of encouraging whatever level of self-righteous anti-Americanism one may consider to exist. On the contrary I believe it is a very bad thing which will likely have lasting divisive effects on both sides, and that will benefit neither.

We have touched on this point many times in our discussions, but I believe that the decision of a rather complacent Europe, which has for more than a half century been spared by fate the role of itself facing, its most deadly enemy, should, at this moment in our collective history, forget its own, and decide that the United States of America, now and for a brief time unchallenged by an equal rival, is a more serious threat to the peace and security of the world than the political and religious strife that infests the Islamic world (mainly the parts once ruled by Europeans); the hunger, disease and political stagnation that infests Africa (also an European product); and the rogue authoritarian nations now seeking nuclear weapons. I believe that one day historians will compare this folly with the last equivalent one that preceeded WWI, and as well the lasting terrible historical legacies of these follies.

Havin' just read back a half dozen pages or so, can't say I see any thread highjackin' at all - the topic is "What went wrong and how can we fix it", accordin' to the thread title. So some folks who aren't Democrats offer cogent, pertinent observations re the current state of The Democratic Party, and the manner in which it has brought itself to this pass, and they are excoriated, subjected to vituperation, and otherwise meanly dealt with. Seems to me The Democrats may recognize a probem exists, but don't wanna hear about it other than on their own terms and as may be agreeable to their collective sensibilities - most particularly as may regard themselves acceptin' responsibility for the problems facin' The Democratic Party. I s'pose that makes sense; after all, look at where The Democratic Party is today, and how it got there.

It was that vituperation that got in my craw. Yeah. The viturperation.

Meanwhile-- the "trying to run people off when they're saying stuff you don't want to hear" is likely the reason they're in the shitter.<--translation of Timber's kinder assessment.

The title is right at the top of the page. It reads:

"Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?"

Ya'll changin' parties?

We don't want them.

Go away. <waves flyswatter this time>

DTOM writes


What Clinton agenda? Clinton had substantial majorities in both houses of Congress for two full years. Can you name any significant presidential proposal or any significant piece of legislation that came out of those two years? Deficit reduction? No. Welfare reform? No. Plans to bolster social security or medicare? No. The GOP did exert some pressure to defeat Hillary's socialist healthcare plan that would have highjacked 13% of the nation's economy and to which many Democrats also objected and they voted down Clinton's first budget as did most of the Democrats in Congress because it was sooooo bad. The second budget went better and raised taxes across the board for all Americans including taxing social security for senior citizen recipients--such taxes going into the general fund to be spend immediately of course.

The GOP did not give Clinton appointees a particularly hard time and certainly weren't hateful and contentious to them except the ones who were breaking the law even as they appeared for their confirmation hearings.




Well the Dems haven't really had a platform other than the unpopular ideology already mentioned and/or bashing the GOP for some years now. And it has hurt them terribly. So yes, they are no longer the Progressive party but they have been the obstructionist, heels dug in party.

The GOP is holding fast to most of its traditional values with the exception that it can no longer be said to be fiscally conservative which many of us are quietly doing what we can to remedy, and it has developed a too soft, 'feel good' mentality re illegal immigration that irritates a lot of us a lot. So I'll agree the GOP has veered off course in a place or two. Those of us who haven't veered with them are hoping to put them back on the track.



True conservatives see government as the servant of the people, not the other way around. If my party stops listening to the values of the people and seriously abandons those very values on too many issues, I look for another party. It's as simple as that. Given that Democrats substantially outnumber Republicans, it's a safe et to believe a number of Democrats have done just that or they just couldn't get enthused enough to vote at all. I believe the Democrat party has abandoned most of its constituents and I believe that is why it is shrinking and losing elections.

The train is run by the American people, not the party bosses. Smart party bosses get on and do what they can to be part of solutions.



That depends. I believe most Americans are more conservative than they are liberal and the party that understands that is the party that will win most of the elections. I think both parties were conservative until the counter culture revolution of the 60's. The Republicans are still conservative where most American values are concerned. On the other hand they are now the progressive party pushing for social security reform, healthcare reform, education reform--they recognize what we were doing is no longer working and are devising ways to do it differently and better.

The Democrats seem to be dominated by the protoge of that counter culture revolution and are the ones that have their heels dug in and don't want to make any significant changes in much of anything other than some social engineering proposals that are largely unpopular with many Americans.



I think both parties can understand and represent the American people without having to march in lockstep. There are so many things that have no absolute answers and these provided definition for the parties a generation ago. Democrats historically have looked to government as the vehicle to effect most social benefit; the Republicans historically have wanted less government and more private sector empowerment. Is regulation or deregulation the way to go? Democrats are traditionally more pro-regulation and in some case that has proved beneficial. Republicans are traditionally more deregulation and in some cases that has also proved beneficial. Democrats are generally more prosubsidy to stimulate the market; the GOP more free traders to accomplish the same.
Democrats are more pro-union; the GOP more inclined not to burden the employer with mandates.'

I think once we get past whose values and get to what values, we would find much common ground and both parties would represent a majority of the people. From there I think there would be enough real differences to generate lively debate and prevent a one-party system.

I

I thought somewhere back there, this forum had been opened up to everybody (as had the pro-Bush column). If you guys wish to close it though, Peeeeediddy, would you kindly pry all those insultingly obnoxious cartoons out of the GOP celebration thread?

No.

He wants Assdom all to himself.

Don't make me break out the Raid...

Go for it.

Die, pest, die!

PDiddie wrote


Wow, that's the nicest thing PDiddie ever said to me. See? I KNEW I was irrisistible.

PD--

Don't be so afraid of dissenting voices. You'll be OK. Or, at least, as well as you have been.

Now, I gotta say I for one am quite dismayed the leadership of The Democratic Party seems disinclined to pursue the notion of maintainin' a viable 2 party system.

okayyyy... this could get get good.

nice to see you all. lookin' forward to some tasty sunday mornin', post collision mats w/ cabin, fun.

here's a good place for us all to start. let's take three "issues" and find a place where republicans and non-republicans ( i say that because i am no longer a republican and not yet a democrat and probably not alone. ) can hash out solutions to those issues that all can live with.

maybe if we can prove that it can be done on a simple net site, it will inspire the knuckleheads in washington to miss a lunch or two and give it a try.

The only possible way we're going to have a viable two party system going into the future is to get rid of the democrat party. Any useful purpose it might have ever served is water over the dam; it needs to be replaced.

I like DTom's suggestion. Pick an issue or issues that so far have no solution on the blocks and see what we can come up with.

My three picks for starters:
1) Illegal immigration/protecting U.S. borders
2) A mediocre and/or inadequate education system
3) Social Security - all government control or privatize some of it?

dtom

As a separate and unrelated issue, that ought to be done on a unique thread.

But I'll toss in a couple of tips...
-address one issue only
-make it an issue not presently the subject of party or media concern (folks will just paste in their ideologies)
-choose a question that will require some concrete research

I'm down with it. Any other takers?

(What issue hasn't already been felt up and cast aside by politics?)