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Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

 
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:26 am
Lola wrote:
Finn wrote:
Abortion is, in and of itself, a divisive issue. How would you suggest it be discussed in a unifying, rather than divisive manner?


It is divisive and there is no compromise.

The former lies in the nature of abortion, but the latter ("there is no compromise") lies mostly in the nature of American politics. Other countries, including my own, have found compromises. Nobody's happy with them, but everyone can live with them. Just a datapoint.

In terms of the title of this thread, I think one thing Democrats need to fix is their explain why liberal abortion laws are good to have. Relying on the Supreme Court to uphold Roe vs. Wade, and on filibustering any Supreme Court Candidate who might uphold it, won't work in the long run if the Democrats can't keep a large share of public opinion convinced. And if public opinion is on the Democrats' side, their case looks good even if the Supreme Court overturns Roe and returns the power to legislate abortion to the states.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:47 am
Lola wrote:
Back from vacation. I feel so much better........however, I'm afraid it won't last long.

Then just say "No" to reading and responding to reactionary postings. Cool

Finn wrote:
Quote:
Abortion is, in and of itself, a divisive issue. How would you suggest it be discussed in a unifying, rather than divisive manner?


It is divisive and there is no compromise. Either a person is more concerned about their religious explanations and the unborn or they're more concerned about the health and welfare of currently living women (other people's daughters) who will again be in the back allies with unregulated abortionists.

I think you're right Finn, there is no compromise on this issue. Unless of course it would be that doctors who do not want to perform abortions don't and women who don't want an abortion don't have one and those who do need one and it's not murder to them, do. But that's it, isn't it?

That's hardly a compromise. You've described the Pro-Choice position.

This country will be governed by faith in religion or by scientific facts. It looks like we're stuck with faith for now.

I fail to see how positions on the issue of abortion translate to this fallacious dichotomy.

In any case, how do scientific facts inform the opinion of a Pro-Choice advocate, or, for that matter, a supporter of same sex marriages?

The divisive issues of our time are not akin to whether the sun revolves around the earth or visa versa. No one can prove through scientific analysis that women should have the right to terminate her unborn child, or that same sex couples should be able to legally marry.

These are matters of opinion, based on faith; and the Pro-Choice movement is every bit as based on faith as Pro-Life. The difference is the object of that faith.


0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:47 am
I just wish that abortion wasn't the poster card issue of democrats. There are other issues that are important and need to be discussed such as health care and jobs...
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:50 am
Thomas wrote:
Quote:
In terms of the title of this thread, I think one thing Democrats need to fix is their explain why liberal abortion laws are good to have. Relying on the Supreme Court to uphold Roe vs. Wade, and on filibustering any Supreme Court Candidate who might uphold it, won't work in the long run if the Democrats can't keep a large share of public opinion convinced. And if public opinion is on the Democrats' side, their case looks good even if the Supreme Court overturns Roe and returns the power to legislate abortion to the states.


Except in Texas and many of the red states. An available abortion across state lines does not help the young or not-so-wealthy women who need an abortion.

Even if abortion were to be made illegal, which is unlikely, but could happen if the fanatics get their way, well off families can get the help they need in Canada. All it takes is time off work and money. So you see, Thomas, we're really talking about hurting the poor and even large segments of the middle class in this country.

Compromise is possible as long as you're dealing with rational people. But you can't compromise with faith, at least not the way Rove has managed to define it so far.

I think what we have to do is make the same deal with abortion advocates the Republicans made with anti-choice advocates. Ask them to be quiet about their convictions and promise them they'll be taken care of after the election. Especially in the second term.

The New Right folks will of course try to drag the issue out into the open. But if they do, that's easy. We just remain under wraps and let them show themselves for what they are. Fanatics. Then we can help the process along a little with the right adjectives applied to the word conservative. Like maybe, "the mean-spirited conservatives."
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:52 am
Quote:
In any case, how do scientific facts inform the opinion of a Pro-Choice advocate, or, for that matter, a supporter of same sex marriages?


Check out the literatrue of the behavioral sciences.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:55 am
Lola wrote:
Quote:
In any case, how do scientific facts inform the opinion of a Pro-Choice advocate, or, for that matter, a supporter of same sex marriages?


Check out the literatrue of the behavioral sciences.


A rather feeble answer
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:55 am
Quote:
I just wish that abortion wasn't the poster card issue of democrats. There are other issues that are important and need to be discussed such as health care and jobs...


Me too, Revel. It's up to us to change that.
0 Replies
 
Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 09:56 am
Finn wrote:
Quote:
A rather feeble answer



Only if you're one of those who refuses to count the teeth in the horses mouth for fear it will challenge your "faith."

Now, Finn, I have something I want to do that's a lot more fun than a2k. I'll be back in 4 or 5 hours to trade some more insults.........but by then, I'll be so mellow I may leave it for another day.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 11:14 am
Lola wrote:
Compromise is possible as long as you're dealing with rational people.

[...]

Like maybe, "the mean-spirited conservatives."

Actually, just go for the "blood-sucking conservatives" you suggested a few pages earlier. It has a vibe of even-headed rationality to it that I really like. Wink
0 Replies
 
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 11:28 am
I prefer 'religious fanatic, evangelical, mean spirited, blood-sucking conservatives', myself.

Politics is a game of tolerable approximations. Legislatures do this fairly well. Courts set limits, based on fundamental law. Intrusive courts that go beyond accepted fundamental law threaten the whole structure.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 01:50 pm
Lola wrote:
Finn wrote:
Quote:
A rather feeble answer



Only if you're one of those who refuses to count the teeth in the horses mouth for fear it will challenge your "faith."

Now, Finn, I have something I want to do that's a lot more fun than a2k. I'll be back in 4 or 5 hours to trade some more insults.........but by then, I'll be so mellow I may leave it for another day.


Come back or not as you please.

Your latest response is no more illuminating than the prior. I've asked you to explain how science informs a pro-choice position and your reply is to direct me to behavioral science texts. If you feel insulted by the adjective "feeble," I apologize and will substitute "meaningless."

If someone was to contend that a anti-gay marriage position was based on scientific fact, you might ask them to explain how science supports that position. If they answered: "See biology textbooks," somehow I doubt that you would find it responsive to your question.

You are not compelled to support your contention that pro-choice is based on scientific fact, rather then religious faith, but if you wish to be taken seriously, you should at least be able and willing to explain (in a layperson's terms) what scientific facts buttress the pro-choice position.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 02:11 pm
revel wrote:
I just wish that abortion wasn't the poster card issue of democrats. There are other issues that are important and need to be discussed such as health care and jobs...


It is not although you are atttempting to promulgate it. If you are a progressive, you shouldn't fall into their trap of allowing YOUR OPPONENT to frame the argument. The Dems are pro-choice and most oppose abortion as a personal choice. The Dems therefore are by large ANTI-ABORTION BUT OPPOSE ANTI-CHOICE.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 02:16 pm
Thomas wrote:
Lola wrote:
Finn wrote:
Abortion is, in and of itself, a divisive issue. How would you suggest it be discussed in a unifying, rather than divisive manner?


It is divisive and there is no compromise.

The former lies in the nature of abortion, but the latter ("there is no compromise") lies mostly in the nature of American politics. Other countries, including my own, have found compromises. Nobody's happy with them, but everyone can live with them. Just a datapoint.

In terms of the title of this thread, I think one thing Democrats need to fix is their explain why liberal abortion laws are good to have. Relying on the Supreme Court to uphold Roe vs. Wade, and on filibustering any Supreme Court Candidate who might uphold it, won't work in the long run if the Democrats can't keep a large share of public opinion convinced. And if public opinion is on the Democrats' side, their case looks good even if the Supreme Court overturns Roe and returns the power to legislate abortion to the states.


My original comment was that there is no room for compromise for people who believe abortion is murder. This doesn't mean that there is not room for compromise among all people who believe abortion needs to be restricted. Presumably there are two or three Germans who believe abortion is murder. How did they compromise?

It is fair to say, as well, that the absolute positions on this subject do not reside only on the right. Hardcore Pro-Choice advocates refuse to compromise even on Partial Birth Abortion.

The Democrats do not need to explain their pro-choice platform. There is nothing in their position which, if only clarified, would bring in flocks of voters, and while the judiciary will remain their most visible field of battle in the short term, they are banking (as with numerous other liberal positions)
on their less publicized strategy of indoctrinating children in public schools, and adults through the mainstream media.

I don't know that either of these tactics is the engineered result of a centrally developed plan, nor do I believe them to be, but it would be naive to think that the Left in America doesn't recognize the public schools and the media are excellent means by which to indoctrinate the American people.

The folks who are writing and reporting the news, as well as the folks who are teaching children and young adults are disproportionately liberal. Of course they are promoting a liberal weltanschauung.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 02:47 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
My original comment was that there is no room for compromise for people who believe abortion is murder. This doesn't mean that there is not room for compromise among all people who believe abortion needs to be restricted. Presumably there are two or three Germans who believe abortion is murder. How did they compromise?

In practice, abortion is legal in Germany for the first three months, after mandatory councelling. After that, it is only legal in cases of rape, incest, and serions danger for the life and health of the mother. There is no consensus in this matter -- the "abortion is murder" adherents don't like it, and neither do the feminists. But note the difference between "consensus" and "compromise". Compromise only requires a willingness to live with an outcome, not a willingness to change your mind and agree with it.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 02:52 pm
Thomas wrote:
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
My original comment was that there is no room for compromise for people who believe abortion is murder. This doesn't mean that there is not room for compromise among all people who believe abortion needs to be restricted. Presumably there are two or three Germans who believe abortion is murder. How did they compromise?

In practice, abortion is legal in Germany for the first three months, after mandatory councelling. After that, it is only legal in cases of rape, incest, and serions danger for the life and health of the mother. There is no consensus in this matter -- the "abortion is murder" adherents don't like it, and neither do the feminists. But note the difference between "consensus" and "compromise". Compromise only requires a willingness to live with an outcome, not a willingness to change your mind and agree with it.


I seriously doubt the abortion is murder adherents in the US will ever stop trying to have it completely prohibited. If it's their sincere belief that abortion is murder, I don't see how they could ever compromise.
0 Replies
 
Thomas
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 04:14 pm
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
I seriously doubt the abortion is murder adherents in the US will ever stop trying to have it completely prohibited. If it's their sincere belief that abortion is murder, I don't see how they could ever compromise.

You may be right -- and that's what I meant when I said "no compromise" part is lies mostly in the nature of America's political discourse.
0 Replies
 
revel
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 04:18 pm
Personally I believe that abortion is murder and if personally asked or if it came up for a vote like the gay marriage thing did, I would vote against it unless for a medical reason. Where that leaves me as a democrat, I don't know.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 04:59 pm
Why are the Dems looking at every kind of explanation for their loss except the obvious one - i.e., John F. Kerry?

And who in hell would come up with the idea of Hillary '08 as a logical lesson to draw from Kerry '04's failure?

These and other questions in a most entertaining little rant on TNR Online yesterday:

Quote:
THAT'S LIFE
Stop Loss

by Michelle Cottle

Only at TNR Online
Post date: 11.19.04
ran is going nuclear. Iraq is on the brink of civil war. Egypt is suffering an actual, literal plague of locusts. The Red Sox won the World Series. Karl Rove is front-runner for Man of the Year. Clearly the Apocalypse is at hand. With the Four Horsemen descending, Democrats have precious little time to get their act together, and someone needs to sit them down for what a friend of mine calls a "get right with Jesus talk."

For the past few weeks Dems have spent their days (and, knowing the geekiness of Beltway types, probably their nights) wringing their hands about the unpleasantness of November 2 and what it all means. They have agonized about the party's failure to connect with religious voters, married women, old folks. They have bemoaned its lack of vision, lack of narrative, lack of a core message. Unhinged by defeat, they have vowed to reevaluate every policy the party has backed (or blocked) since the glory days of FDR in an effort to figure out how they let some smirking, swaggering, verbally challenged, pathologically incurious cowboy whip their butts. So intense is their identity crisis that, at this rate, I half expect the 2008 nominee to run on a platform of mandatory school prayer, abolition of the IRS, and free TEC-9s for all new voters. And if that doesn't work--a constitutional amendment banning gay people.

Now, let us set aside for a minute the fact that, if the success of George W. Bush has taught us anything, it is that self-reflection is for losers. I recognize that the Democratic Party is the party of pointy-heads who overanalyze the frappuccino menu at Starbucks. Liberals deconstruct. It's what we do. But in the midst of all this rampant self-analysis, what perplexes me is that just about everyone seems to be scrupulously avoiding discussion of the unavoidable reality that the Democratic Party lost because it once again ran a certifiably piss-poor candidate for president.

I'm sorry, I know Kerry came close. I know he gave a helluva debate performance. I know he tried really hard to convince Middle America that he would recognize Dale Earnhardt Jr. if the bad boy of NASCAR spent an afternoon doing doughnuts on his front lawn. But the fact remains that JFK2 was a terrible choice for Democrats, especially now, especially against this president.

Having written ad nauseum about why this is so, I won't bore everyone with a detailed recap. Suffice it to say that the senator brought nothing--zero, zilch, nada--to the table that would actively appeal to any voter beyond the safe bicoastal blue zones. (Even poor Dick Gephardt, eternally handicapped by his lack of eyebrows, might have made inroads into the Midwest.) Hey, there's no need to take my word on the matter: Über-handicapper Charlie Cook was offering this same assessment less than a week before Election Day.

Thus far, however, most people seem to be holding their tongues about this core truth. Maybe it's too soon, and Dems are allowing Kerry a little time to heal. Maybe Republicans are hoping Dems screw up and run him again in 2008. But my suspicion is that everyone is still so awed by Kerry's coming so close, by his outperforming all expectations, that they have completely forgotten why expectations were so low to begin with: because he was a lousy candidate.

Ordinarily I'm not the kind of gal to kick a guy when he's down--at least not unless I'm pretty sure he's so far down he ain't getting back up. But I make an exception in Kerry's case because, while Democrats are busy reflecting, they need to carefully consider the costs of disregarding a candidate's basic likeability. (Not to be confused with his IQ or experience or fundraising clout or height.) Dems can rework their policies and narrative and meta-message all they want, but if they don't learn to pick a contender with a common touch and a broad appeal--meaning someone who can relate to the masses outside the Delta Shuttle corridor--they are going to wind up wandering in the wilderness far longer than Moses.

Most importantly, the party would do well to come to grips with this electoral reality now, before it finds itself staring down the barrel of an even grander presidential disaster. I speak, of course, of Hillary '08.

Since Election Day, I have suffered through multiple discussions with giddy conservatives all but drooling over a Hillary run. They--like most liberals I know--all assume Senator Clinton is the horse to beat in 2008. But unlike discussions with liberals, my Hillary chats with conservatives typically begin with a variation on, Have your people gone completely insane? I'd like to take offense, but I can't, because nominating Hillary would be insanity. It's not that she's a bad gal. And she's surprised most of the Beltway crowd by turning out to be a relatively moderate, low-key, collegial, workhorse senator. Factoring in her high name recognition, her mythic status with the base, her ability to energize female voters, and, of course, her easy access to the greatest natural politician of our time, it's easy to see Hillary's appeal. Looked at rationally, she'd make a crackerjack presidential candidate.

But the American public is not rational about anyone with the last name Clinton. If you thought the Republican base was energized this year, just give them the chance to vote against that uppity Clinton girl. The GOP possibilities for fund-raising, not to mention creative attack ads, are mind-boggling.

At minimum, Hillary starts with some 40 percent of the country dead-set against her. Granted, an equal number would start out in her corner. But it's hard to see how she unloads all of her baggage in order to reach enough mushy-middle voters to win. The political class may now think of Hillary as a moderate legislator. But the bulk of the electorate, all those folks who won't tune into the race until after Labor Day '08, will be voting on Hillary the icon. Think headbands and cookie-baking. Think Vince Foster and the Rose law firm billing records and the health care debacle. Washington understands that Hillary has grown, but it will be much tougher to convince Middle America. (And let's face it: Her status as a senator from the ultra-uppity, Yankee state of New York is unlikely to help.)

Bush was unquestionably a polarizing figure this election. But it bears recalling that he initially came to power not by energizing his base, but by projecting an aggressively non-polarizing image that drew swing voters to his corner. (He also got a little help from stupid Floridians and the U.S. Supreme Court, but it's considered bad form to mention all that now.)

If Dems have any hope of performing better in 2008, they need to rally around a candidate who won't freak out the GOP base, even as he or she reassures wary swing voters that Democrats aren't the godless, convictionless, condescending, out-of-touch cultural aliens that Karl Rove claims. It's still too early for anyone to know who that candidate is yet. But I damn sure know who it ain't.

Michelle Cottle is a senior editor at TNR.
0 Replies
 
Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 05:16 pm
Well written article Nimh and certainly evoked a chuckle or two from me.

He's right of course that Kerry was a poor candidate for various reasons not the least being the liberal and anti-war baggage he brought to the ticket. Evenso, many Americans were willing to forgive him or give him the benefit of the doubt on some of that, if he had just had any kind of comprehensive message. He didn't, and neither did the DNC. Without a message they could run Jesus himself and still lose.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  1  
Reply Sat 20 Nov, 2004 05:27 pm
Jesus most definitely would have lost against Bush. Some long-haired dude who, when talk is of foreign policy, extols the virtue of "turning the other cheek" and calls on the voters to share their riches on top of that - would not have gone over well in America.

Twisted Evil
0 Replies
 
 

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