Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

Cycloptichorn wrote:

I understand the point you are trying to make, but frankly, you don't live here.

That's a fair objection. There's 300,000,000 people living in America, and I have never met 299,999,900 of them. By contrast, you know every American but 299,999,000 of them. For all other information, I rely on the internet, TV and radio stations, as well as statistics -- just as you do.

Cycloptichorn wrote:

While we may have more people living and working together in the same areas, racism is alive and well here in the South, I guarantee you.

I'm sure you are right, I believe the evidence you offer is correct, I don't think I ever claimed racism was dead and buried in the South. I said, to stay in your picture, that surprisisngly it may be even more alive in the North, and that Northern preconceptions to the contrary look like pretty unwarranted self-congratulation as best I can tell. And I've argued implicitly that while statistics aren't perfect, they are better than no data at all, and better than subjective impressions too. The sample of people we observe in our daily life is not representative of anything.

0 Replies

sozobe wrote:

Not the "frankly, you don't live here" card. I don't like that card, especially not when used against the likes of Thomas and nimh. You could make all of the following points without that particular card.

soz

To argue from familiarity and experiential knowledge is not a logical fallacy. To deny such is. And our intuitions suggest this to us. If we wish to learn something about a country, we'll hope that we might go there and observe it as well as any other research we might do. And cyclo's manner was not of an insulting sort.

That said, and though I don't think he said so, thomas has lived and spent time here too.

0 Replies

Quote:

And why should it be? It takes a long time to effect TRUE change in one's society. We only have overcome the hurdle of institutional racism something like 50 years ago. There are still many people alive who remember the time before this, and many whose attitudes were forged in the time just afterwards when only the law had ended racism.

Give us a few generations.

Well said, Cyclop.

And Soz, I don't think Cy was putting Thomas down. She has a point. Come live with the people and do it for a long time and then state an opinion. The value of statistics only goes so far. Since none of us can live everywhere, it would be a good idea to consider the experience of those people who do live in whichever region is being discussed.

Of course, I do not deny the value of statistics in countering the danger of bias that is a component of empirical observation by definition. One should check the other.

0 Replies

I believe the sample anyone observes in NYC is representative of a lot. Walk into places of business or down the street. There is a greater mix of colors here than any place I've been. And most everyone is either rude to everyone else, or respectful of everyone else, regardless (mostly) of color.

I agree Thomas, that Manhattan is not a representative sample of the North East. And I believe racism exists everywhere to some extent.

0 Replies

While I certainly cannot claim to know everyone in America (as Thomas pointed out), I have spent considerable time in both the south and the north parts of America, and despite whatever statistics you are looking at (need I quote Mark Twain?), racisim is much more prevalent, in my experience, in the south than it is in the north part of America. Homophobia? Much more in the south than the north. Xenophobia? Much more in the south than the north. Sexism? Debatable.

Note that racisim is not simply limited to the white man. The concept of 'reverse racisim,' whether born from economic factors or years of (percieved? actual?) persecution, is also a major factor in the social lives of southerners.

As I said above; it takes time for a country to TRULY shift it's ideas and values. It wouldn't make sense to assume that the south had given up it's old ways so quickly, and while I am sure you can find tables and graphs that show differently, it has been my experience that we need more time to fully conquer our problems here.

So, to get back to Finn's original comment that Systematic racism is a 'historical canard,' that may be true in the areas which can be legislated; but in daily lives of people there is still a lot of systematic racism that has yet to be eliminated.

Cheers

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

(Gotta change that avatar, Cycloptichorn! ;-))

The comments addressed to me were responded to nicely by Thomas at virtually the same moment.

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

It's just not a 'data' thing. I don't think you can look at tables and statistics and see how people treat other people in daily life.

Again, a fair point, and one where I do have less information to go on than you do. For what it's worth, I distinctly remember an interview of Martin Luther King from shortly before he was shot. Among other things, he said that the most hostile and mean-spirited kind of racism he had ever experienced was during a week he spent organizing and attending a demonstration in Chicago. Unlike me, Martin Lugher King did live in the South.

(And by the way, no offense taken from the "frankly you don't live here" card. I get that a lot -- and surprisingly rarely on A2K.)

0 Replies

Lola wrote:

I believe the sample anyone observes in NYC is representative of a lot. Walk into places of business or down the street. There is a greater mix of colors here than any place I've been.

If you like this kind of place as much as I do, I warmly recommend the neighborhood of the Fillmore in San Francisco. I was there 2 weeks ago, and madly fell in love with it. I hope I can come back soon!

Dyslexia wrote:

actually no Thomas, I didn't have you in mind when I said "Dems and Republicans" I don't seem able to fit you under either catagory, am I wrong?

Well, I made Sozobe faint once by making allusions that I'm a Republican; I don't want to make her faint again. But even if I did -- the truth is that I can't really fit myself under either category either.

0 Replies

Thomas wrote:

If you like this kind of place as much as I do, I warmly recommend the neighborhood of the Fillmore in San Francisco. I was there 2 weeks ago, and madly fell in love with it. I hope I can come back soon!

Glad to learn you like my neighborhood. Property (and the view) is better over the hill in Pacific Heights, but "the Fillmore" (as San Franciscans call it) is a nice middle ground amidst all the sometimes odd variety of Bagdad-by-the-Bay. The only other district I like as well is the Marina (or cow hollow as it was once known)..

0 Replies

Dyslexia wrote:

Actually I don't know the answers to any of these questions other than personal experiences like when I drove (last spring) though what I think of as the old south and heard, repeatedly, the issue of the confederate flag being flown.

That's interesting. What was your impression with the people there? Were they more open-minded or less so than where you normally live? How did they respond to your arguments when you disagreed with them? Did they give you static about wearing your hair long? (That's assuming you still look like you do on your avatar.) I personally don't place that much importance on the confederate flag issue because it often seems to be a token of stubbornness rather than racism. But it would be interesting to hear your impression of those other forms of civil interaction.

georgeob1 wrote:

Glad to learn you like my neighborhood

0 Replies

I have lived in Rhode Island, Michigan, Virginia, Maryland, Florida, Texas, Colorado, Washington State, and California. The place where I observed the least racism was Colorado, and I believe that is because the population there was the most homogenious. The difference wasn't so much the result of virtue as the lack of temptation & opportunity.

My strong impression is that the basics of human behavior are very similar everywhare. Differences are generally more likely to be merly different manifestations of the same things based on local cultural norms. As Cyclo has indicated the institutional forms of racism in this country are gone now. My experience has been that there is more genuine interaction among the races in the South than in the North. Certainly people live and work in greater mutual peroximity there than in most of the cities of the North. While the modes of speech may be different, and the separations that remain more obvious, there is far less hidden antipathy and suspicion in the South than in the North (or even California).

Perhaps Texas is an exception.

0 Replies

It's hard to say. Perhaps it is socioeconomic in nature. Have you spent a wide amount of time around diverse members of our economic scale?

Because the funny thing to me is, the most racist people are usually the richest or the poorest members of society.

Once again, this is merely my personal experience, which could no doubt be wrong.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

I agree with the racist comment. I work with people from all walks of life and you never know when a rich donor will pull you aside and say "you know we need to keep an eye on that black fellow...." or one of the bottom tier workers will say "we need to watch him/her, they are gay..." Most of the time the "middle" management or middle income people just want to do their job and get along with everyone.

0 Replies

Cyclo,

If I recall correctly you live in Austin. An interesting and unusual intersection of State Capitol, a very large university, an emerging version of Silicon (or Dell) Valley, and old South Texas. A far divide from the south side to the lakes in the west and the northern suburbs out Mopac Blvd. Perhaps Austin is a bit of an exception in Texas.

0 Replies

Texas is not much different from the others and has a huge minority population. My kids were raised in New Mexico and Kansas and were never exposed to the "N" word until they were around their Texas cousins. However, these same Texas cousins were the first to help a burned out black family and go to bat for a minority coworker who was unfairly accused, etc. etc. etc.

Racism takes many forms, but being politically incorrect is not necessarily one of them. And in my view, racist language is ugly and inexcusable, but it only offends. A far worse racism is to tell minorities that they are victims and 'Whitey is keeping them down" and they are a discredit to their race if they act, speak, or vote "white" (ie conservative) or they can't make it without the Democrat's help, etc. etc. etc.

0 Replies

Cyc, has your experience of ethnic diversity been primarily urban or has it included a substantial rural component? I ask as in my experience I have found urban environments, irrespective of geograhic situation, to be a bunch more up tight in general than rural environments. I note that has been just my experience, acknowledge it is a generalization, and your mileage may vary.

0 Replies

Austin IS an exception in Texas, you are right about that; a little pocket of progressive liberalism right in the middle of one of the most conservative states in the nation.

But! I've for the most part found racism to be lesser in Austin, than in the time I spent growing up in a relatively poor neighborhood in Houston; or the year I spent in Dallas.

I really do believe that socio-economic factors have become the outlet for racism which is now illegal; either the ones on the top, who don't fear retribution for their statements, or the ones on the bottom, who don't fear retribution for their statements. Those of us in the middle are pretty cool with everything, as Cannistershot put quite well.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Lola wrote:

Quote:

If people who think like you continue to join the bible-thumpers in bashing them, how are the grown-ups ever going to reclaim the Republican Party?

If I saw any movement in this direction from any grown ups in the Republican party I would send large sums of money to support it.

It would be nice to hear from these "grown ups" about their view of the take over of their party and better yet, I'd like to hear what plans they have to do something about it.

Having not heard a word from them on this matter, I have concluded that they would rather bury their heads in the sand. Unfortunately, their fannies are in the breeze.

Well, how do I look Lola?

How would you react if the question were turned around and directed at the cacophonous single issue extreme groups in the Democrat party?

0 Replies

Well, I can't speak for Lola, but I would say that the Democratic party needs to do some work on consolidating it's members and it's message.

Which does seem to be the case.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Since we're still on the subject, I'd like to share an observation I repeatedly made in San Francisco and that surprised me, though I think Sozobe might have mentioned something like it a long time ago in an online community far, far away.

When riding the bus in San Francisco, I was pleased to notice that non-whites and whites mixed liberally there. But Blacks and Hispanics distinctly seemed to avoid sitting next to each other. The pattern was very consistent between about 20 bus lines all across town, and I'm pretty sure the phenomenon was real, not just my observational bias.

However, when racism is debated by politicians -- mostly by Democrats, Republicans tend to ignore the issue -- it always seems to be discussed in terms of Whites vs. Non-Whites, especially Whites vs. Blacks. Can someone please make sense of this apparent mismatch for me?

0 Replies

Okay, Dems, What Went Wrong? And How Can We Fix It?

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know