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Looking ahead to Bush's second term...

 
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 11:31 am
Re: Looking ahead to Bush's second term...
blatham wrote:

Mid-East Conflict


I hope so too, but I see little to make me optimistic. The 'Roadmap' was, as you know, coincident with British demands for some movement on the Israel/Palestine problem as there was a broad consensus among foreign affairs personnel that this situation was a key element, if not the key element, in the rise of Muslim anti-western extremism and hatred. The likelihood that beginning a war with Iraq would make this situation worse was pretty cavalierly ignored by the Bush administration. Further, if Bush maintains his Defence Department lineup, then he will maintain a group of folks (Wolfowitz, Perle, and others) who hold connections and allegiances and philosophies with Likud. If those allegiances remain as they appear to have been, then American policy may well continue to reflect Israeli preferences to the likely detriment of Palestinian desires. Still further, anything like a Palestinian political or civic infrastructure seems clearly to have been a target of Israel policy, and this doesn't bode well for anything like a functioning Palestinian state or for Israel's desire that there be one. Two new factors...Arafat and the recent vote in Israel. I'm not optimistic.


I agree with much of this. Many members of the Bush administration seem to prefer that Israel get its way to any settlement.

Furthermore, Israel has a knack for undermining any Palestinian leader (even the more moderate ones) and with Arafat gone it wouldn't be difficult to keep a state of political instability which can be used as a pretext for settlement delay.

Alternately the Palestinian leaders vying for the top spot might end up in a contest of who is more extreme and end up with a candidate that is harmful to the process.

Either way, I wonder if Bush will make the effort.

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Gay Marriage

This election is over, but not the next one. One of the first steps Rove took in preparation for 2004 was to deny the possibility that any rightwing third party might arise to take votes from Bush. The growing threat of a rightwing third party is no longer from Buchannan, but from the radical religious element, such as was in the air when Moore was not, in the view of the radical religious right, adequately supported. Also, this element is now far more cohesive and more powerful within the party than is the libertarian wing. Continuing Republican power in both houses and for the presidency is now utterly dependent upon the religious right. Of the issues this element will continue to demand of the Republicans, two probably stand at the fore: gay issues and abortion. If Bush were to back down on gay marriage, a religious third party becomes a much more real possibility. He won't back down on this. He'll push it hard.


I wonder... why push it when it can be saved for the next Republican candidate.

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Government Spending and Taxation

I think Krugman has this one dead on. This administration is not fiscally conservative. Remember that Bush vetoed zero spending bills, and has driven the debt to unprecedented levels, and that he has pledged to cut taxes further and that the war will cost god knows how much. For those who have been reading about Grover Norquist, a key figure in the Bush/Republican team, the notion of 'starving the beast' will be clear - the bankrupcy of the government to facilitate the dismantling of New Deal social arrangements. Krugman speech to London School of Economics April 2004


I think Krugman has it dead on too, and have been telling my brother about "starve the beast" since before Krugman has been telling it.

Bush seems to be pursuing a course of future fiscal conservatism through current fiscal recklessness.

Whether it's his intent to starve the beast I do not know, heck it may well just be typical near-sighted spending of future money that so many politicians are tempted to do.

But ultimately it may have the same result.

In his victory speech Bush said:

    [i]We will continue our economic progress. We'll reform our outdated tax code. We'll strengthen the Social Security for the next generation.[/i]


So it sounds like some big economic and social plans might be on the table. I think social security needs an overhaul but I suspect that what he has in mind is far different from what I do, and that his idea of strengthening it falls in line with the ideological divide.

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Post 9/11 Government Freedoms

I doubt the latter very much indeed. Though there are Republican voices in the Senate and House that have spoken up and voiced traditional libertarian concerns about privacy and civil rights issues related to the Patriot Act, this is not an administration that brooks a lot of discord, particularly when they feel the issue is important, whether that importance relates to operations or re-election. Nor is it an administration that considers legal precedent to be much of a concern (Abu Ghraib, etc). Nor is it an administration who will feel terribly queazy about using the tools provided in the Act for other purposes (eg finding lost legislators, or, more frighteningly, the recent FBI statement that the main terrorist threat internally arises within the environmental movement). So the question becomes, how important will the administration actually consider the Patriot Act and its tools in order to procede as they desire and to facilitate re-election in 2008. We can hope that mature Republican voices will temper, but we can't be confident that will happen.


IMO movement on this is contingient on how the people start viewing it. Especially Republicans.

If the more libertarian wing of the Republican party starts caring they can probably get the more right wing folk to go along.

Either way, this is one that I don't care about nearly as much as the other issues.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 11:32 am
Lash wrote:
Bush doesn't have to satisfy anybody's demands now. He's a free agent.


Bush is a Republican, and the Republicans are not free agents. IMO, he will have some concern for the future of his party even if his own presidential future is a done deal.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 11:44 am
Larry434 wrote:

-Staying the course in the worldwide war on terror


Indeed. My wonder is if this will be as prominent a characteristic in this second term.

Unless new fronts are opened I doubt it.

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-Making the tax cuts of his first term permanent and then tax code reform to simplify it


Yes, Bush seems to want to continue the theme of tax cuts, to my personal dismay but probably to the delight of those with different economic philosophy to mine.

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-Social Security reform


IMO, this has the potential for the most ambitious move by this administration. And though Bush uses words like "strengthen" for this program I'm uncertain that it can realistically be viewed that way.

To me, the big question is how much this administration plans to reduce its scope.

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-Medicare reform


Another front for change on the social services ticket. This could be big, and it's something I will follow.

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-Respecting the value judgment of the citizens re: the importance of morals


"Moral" issues are usually just hot button issues in politics where what people say makes a big difference to those who disagree or agree with them.

In practice it's a small part of actual governance, as we thankfully don't mandate our government to do too much toward enforcing moral standards.

Quote:
Will the Dems also heed the will of the majority of the electorate or ignore the will of the voters and continue to attempt to obstruct their agenda?


I certainly hope the Democrats don't become sheep just because they lost.

Democracy isn't about bending over when you lose an election. The election determines who wins, not whether the opposing party should think the way the winners do.

If the democrats had won I would not expect you to think their way, I would expect you to continue to oppose them and try to win next time.

That is what Democracy is about and I hope that is not lost on you here.
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 11:53 am
"I certainly hope the Democrats don't become sheep just because they lost.

Democracy isn't about bending over when you lose an election. The election determines who wins, not whether the opposing party should think the way the winners do.

If the democrats had won I would not expect you to think their way, I would expect you to continue to oppose them and try to win next time.

That is what Democracy is about and I hope that is not lost on you here."

I agree. But not listening to the voters, or even worse listening to them and then trying to change their minds with a contrasting message, and insulting them as ignorant when they don't buy it, is political suicide.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 12:38 pm
Larry434 wrote:

I agree. But not listening to the voters, or even worse listening to them and then trying to change their minds with a contrasting message, and insulting them as ignorant when they don't buy it, is political suicide.


Larry, "the voters" are not monolithic. The Democrats are listening to voters. Their voters.

You seem to want them to listen to the Republican party's voters. Which, while it may be nice, should at least be presented accurately in your criticism of them.
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 12:42 pm
Larry, "the voters" are not monolithic."

No, they are not. And you need only listen to the majority of them if you have any desire to win an election in this decade.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 12:47 pm
Larry,

Democracy isn't just about winning elections. That is populism, not to be confused with Democracy.
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 12:51 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
Larry,

Democracy isn't just about winning elections. That is populism, not to be confused with Democracy.


Nope, Democracy is about electing ones representatives. And naturally we all vote based on our value judgment of the message and the messenger.
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 12:54 pm
And if representatives simply adapt their positions to the will of any majority a great deal of the citizens will lack a representative of their positions.

Larry, I don't personally see any profit in continuing this, I think you are convinced of this particular way of detracting from Democrats so I'll not likely pursue it further here.
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 01:02 pm
Craven de Kere wrote:
And if representatives simply adapt their positions to the will of any majority a great deal of the citizens will lack a representative of their positions.

Larry, I don't personally see any profit in continuing this, I think you are convinced of this particular way of detracting from Democrats so I'll not likely pursue it further here.


O.K.

Because of the necessity of our politicians to do as you say, compromise their positions, to get elected and remain in office, is why I am not a politician.

I don't have the stomach for it.
0 Replies
 
Harper
 
  1  
Reply Sat 6 Nov, 2004 08:34 pm
Looking ahead when applied to Bush is an oxymron.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2004 09:20 am
Re: Looking ahead to Bush's second term...
Craven de Kere wrote:
The election is over, and now I hope we can focus on policies and positions (as opposed to personalities and parties).

Mid-East Conflict

One of the things I was hopeful about with Bush is what seemed to be a willingness to make bold moves in the mid-east conflict.

Some of that was very likely related to trying to sell the war in Iraq but he did set some precedents and went on record as saying America supports a two-state solution.

He even set a goal for statehood in 2005.

The Palestinians have had too much political instability for much movement on this front, and this administration seems to have forgotten about the mid-east once the invasion of Iraq got underway, but maybe Bush will go for legacy and actually put some weight behind a resolution.

I hope he does, I hope he makes an earnest effort at pushing both sides toward a teritorial resolution.

The only way that Bush could have become more involved in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute without throwing gasoline on an already burning Middle East would have been to come down on the side of Palestine. While there are many who would have applauded such action, there are many who would have been disappointed, to say the least. Generally speaking, those who would have been pleased, would not have been Bush supporters to begin with and such a move would probably not have gained him any of their votes. On the other hand, it is quite possible that a shift towards the Paletinian side of the issue would have cost him the votes of those American Jews who have moved to the right, because of their support for Israel and their concern for Islamic facisim.

As a matter of fact, there has been a confluence of events that bode well for advancement of a solution in the short term:

1) A second term US President can focus on the situation with less concern for domestic politics
2) Sharon has demonstrated his committment to the withdrawal from Gaza plan. Whether or not one believes this to be a sincere and viable component of a peace plan, the Israelis do and while it may not constitute the vast unilateral concessions those who favor the Palestinians may be seeking, it is a concession of significance and can be a major step toward some form of peaceful resolution.
3) Arafat is on death's door and the world will soon be clean of him. Symbolically, and through his own devices, he has been a major obstacle to peace. The Israelis have always gagged at the prospective of having to deal with him (and rightly so) and Bush has made no secret of his negative feelings for the man. From what I can see, his death is unlikely to result in a new and greater wave of violence born of the Palestinian people. Without him in the picture there is at least the possibility of a good faith Palestinian engagement
4) Tony Blair has, thus far, really received very little in return for his stalwart support of the Bush Administration. A strong and perceptively fair American effort to resolve the matter is likely to be his reward.

BTW - The US should favor Israel in this matter. They are our ally and they are the only democratic nation in the region. The favor should not be so great as to make resolution impossible, but it should manifest itself in certain ways.


Gay Marriage

Now that the election is over, I'd like to see if this was election politics or if he really does want to push this issue.

Look at the margins of victory for the State constituional ammendments this election. This is no where as devisive an issue as some would contend.
It is also an issue that is very important to the Religious Right. When 60-70% of the American people are in favor of establishing, legally, that marriage is between a man and woman, and only a man and woman, Bush isn't going to have to spend any of his political capital to push for something in which he personally believes.

Government Spending and Taxation

Bush has been very agressive in forwarding a more fiscal conservative agenda with his tax cuts. With his increased spending and seeming lack of concern for the deficit it makes me wonder if he's setting a future administration up for the social cuts.

With an actual popular vote mandate and Republican control of the government I wonder if this will be pursued in this second term.

It's a given that he will push for his tax cuts to be made "permanent."

I think he honestly believes that a thriving economy, accompanied by some cuts in Government spending will result in overcoming the deficit. In theory it can. I don't, however, see him pushing significant cuts in social programs, however I appreciate that for some, the mere elimination of increase is perceived as a cut.


Post 9/11 Government Freedoms

I'm far less concerned than most here about these moves by this administration. But I am curious to see if they will be pursued even further or perhaps even reversed to some degree.

I doubt the latter.

I doubt the latter under any circumstances. I also doubt the former unless there is another major attack and the public clamors for safety.

The plan

If the first term was Iraq/tax cuts, then what will characterize the second term? I doubt that foreign policy in the second term will be as agressive, there are no targets as easy to sell and hit as Iraq and I think much of the "invade other countries" political capital was spent.

But this Administration is ambitious, so what do you think this upcoming term will be like?

Precisely what he has promised, unless unexpected events overtake us.

Tax Reform
Social Security Reform
Standing firm in Iraq

Bush isn't one to readily turn away from stated goals (for those about to protest relative his stated goals shortly after his first election victory, keep in mind that 9/11 occurred and drastically changed the picture - for him if for no one else.

I certainly hope he gets to stick to these issues not only because I believe they are vital to our future prosperity and security, but because I think only another catastrophe will cause him to change his focus.

0 Replies
 
blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Sun 7 Nov, 2004 09:29 am
I hope he doesn't create another one....
0 Replies
 
Craven de Kere
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 01:02 am
Re: Looking ahead to Bush's second term...
Finn d'Abuzz wrote:
The only way that Bush could have become more involved in the Israeli/Palestinian dispute without throwing gasoline on an already burning Middle East would have been to come down on the side of Palestine.


What type of scenarios do you have in mind when you say this?

Quote:
1) A second term US President can focus on the situation with less concern for domestic politics


There is a little known maxim in politics to the effect that Israel can only be pressured by a second termer. I'm not sure how true that is, or whether it will make a difference now.

Quote:
2) Sharon has demonstrated his committment to the withdrawal from Gaza plan. Whether or not one believes this to be a sincere and viable component of a peace plan, the Israelis do and while it may not constitute the vast unilateral concessions those who favor the Palestinians may be seeking, it is a concession of significance and can be a major step toward some form of peaceful resolution.


I agree. And I think Sharon represents a rare opportunity in Israeli leaders that should be capitalized on.

Quote:
3) Arafat is on death's door and the world will soon be clean of him. Symbolically, and through his own devices, he has been a major obstacle to peace. The Israelis have always gagged at the prospective of having to deal with him (and rightly so) and Bush has made no secret of his negative feelings for the man. From what I can see, his death is unlikely to result in a new and greater wave of violence born of the Palestinian people. Without him in the picture there is at least the possibility of a good faith Palestinian engagement


My concern is that any eventual settlement will likely not have any rallying signature of approval that Arafat could bring to the table.

He is viewed by many as the embodiment of the Palestinian struggle for statehood and I had held out hope that he would play a symbolic role in the end of said struggle.

I'm still pondering the impact his death would have these days, at present I don't expect much of a ripple.

Quote:
4) Tony Blair has, thus far, really received very little in return for his stalwart support of the Bush Administration. A strong and perceptively fair American effort to resolve the matter is likely to be his reward.


To be perfectly honest I'm not sure if a reward for him is a concern for this administration.

Quote:
BTW - The US should favor Israel in this matter. They are our ally and they are the only democratic nation in the region. The favor should not be so great as to make resolution impossible, but it should manifest itself in certain ways.


The US clearly does favor Israel. I think historically the balance of our favor is slightly off but far less than most (and by this I mean MOST) people think.

What do you think? Do you think the US should favor Israel more, less or the same as we do now?


Quote:
Look at the margins of victory for the State constituional ammendments this election. This is no where as devisive an issue as some would contend.
It is also an issue that is very important to the Religious Right. When 60-70% of the American people are in favor of establishing, legally, that marriage is between a man and woman, and only a man and woman, Bush isn't going to have to spend any of his political capital to push for something in which he personally believes.


IMO, it depends on how he pushes and precisely what he pushes. A constitutional amendment would require a lot of political capital.

More subtle and more reversible measures might not.

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It's a given that he will push for his tax cuts to be made "permanent."


Agreed, he did this before the election.

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I don't, however, see him pushing significant cuts in social programs, however I appreciate that for some, the mere elimination of increase is perceived as a cut.


Neither do I. I see his policies as necessitating such cuts in the future.

Quote:
Quote:
But this Administration is ambitious, so what do you think this upcoming term will be like?


Precisely what he has promised, unless unexpected events overtake us.

Tax Reform
Social Security Reform
Standing firm in Iraq


I agree, but will note that at the time I posed the question he hadn't yet spelled out his second term agenda in that speech.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 04:30 am
Hmmmmmm....

"US to remain 'aggressive' abroad


Powell has ended speculation on the direction of Bush's second term
The US Secretary of State has said that his country will continue to pursue an "aggressive" foreign policy.
In an interview with the Financial Times, Colin Powell said President George Bush would not alter or curtail his policies abroad in his second term.

"The president is not going to trim his sails or pull back," Mr Powell said in his first interview since the election.

"It's a continuation of his principles, his policies, his beliefs," he told the London-based newspaper.

The president had won a mandate to pursue a foreign policy that was in the US national interest, he said.

This policy had traditionally been "aggressive in terms of going after challenges, issues", Mr Powell added, and the president was "going to keep moving in this direction".

Mr Bush would take a multilateral approach, he said, but the US would act alone where necessary.

Peace in Middle East

However, Mr Powell stressed that an aggressive foreign policy also applied to developing world issues, including Aids and the Middle East peace process.

The Middle East peace process was "one of the biggest overhangs in our foreign policy", he said.

After disagreements with European leaders over US policy, Mr Bush was "anxious to reach out" to them.

"Where we have had disagreements, we will try to get beyond those disagreements," Mr Powell said.

Mr Powell's interview, published on Tuesday, puts a stop to any thoughts that a second Bush term might have heralded a change in US foreign policy, says the BBC's Ian Pannell in Washington.

Mr Powell did not address speculation over whether he would continue to serve during President Bush's second term, our correspondent adds."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3994699.stm
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:34 am
deb

If there is any one thing we KNOW about this administration, is that its words have no necessary connection to its deeds, its plans, or its facts in hand.

Ron Suskind, writing in the NY Times and quoted here in the Miami Herald...(Suskind has won a Pulitzer writing for the Wall Street Journal)

Quote:
According to Suskind, 'The (White House) aide said that guys like me were `in what we call the reality-based community,' which he defined as people who 'believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.' '' The aide told Suskind, ``That's not the way the world really works anymore. We're an empire now, and when we act we create our own reality.''


Or, John DiIulio, from his letter to Esquire...(John DiIulio headed up the Faith Based Initiatives, but resigned from the administration)
Quote:
You're supposed to stand for something . . . to generate sound ideas, support them with real evidence, and present them to Congress and the people. We didn't do any of that. We just danced this way and that on minute political calculations and whatever was needed for a few paragraphs of a speech."


Thus, it would not be prudent to believe Powell is doing anything other than forwarding a pre-designed PR line, as he did, most memorably, at the UN preceding the attack on Iraq.

I've posted earlier, somewhere on these threads, the passage from Woodward's book that recounts a meeting at Camp David in the early run-up to the war where Carl Rove brought a list of words/concepts to be used to refer to Bush in all media operations. There were about five or six terms, synonymic, including "resolute" and "strong leader". We've all seen that played out, with dismaying success, and Powell's comments follow the model.

The Iraq issue nearly killed this administration in the election and they aren't going to be adding to the risks of electoral loss in two years and again in four by another Iraq-style adventure, because electoral success trumps all else, regardless of claims to principle and integrity as motive forces. In Iraq itself, as the situation gets worse, this administration can be predicted with high certainty to leave early, or rather to make the loud and gaudy pretence of leaving - but maintaining control of oil and occupying enough area to act as a military launch pad in the Middle East, thus solving the sticky problem for Saudi rulers of American forces there with the risk of extremist revolt there and Saudi oil resources falling outside of American control. When they go they will say the following:
"It's time for Iraqi independence. We never wished to be an occupying power, just a liberating agent for the downtrodden Iraqi people. We've removed Sadaam and his baby-eating sons. Freedom is on the march in Iraq now, but freedom and liberty must come from within. We've given them the chance, the opportunity for a new dawn of peace and freedom. Now, it is up the Iraqi army and the Iraqi people to make their own choices. We've done our part. You can't enforce democracy at the point of a gun."
0 Replies
 
Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 06:55 am
"If there is any one thing we KNOW about this administration, is that its words have no necessary connection to its deeds, its plans, or its facts in hand."

Gee, and I thought the complaint was that they did do what they said they would.

Tax cuts.

Education reform.

Prescription drugs for seniors.

Pre-emptive war deemed in our national interest by our elected representatives.

Want more of the same?

Staying the course in war on terror.

SS reform

Medicare reform

1st term tax cuts permanent

Judges and justices that will rule based on the Constitution.

Standby, the President and the GOP controlled Congress will deliver.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 07:16 am
Quote:
The Iraq issue nearly killed this administration in the election and they aren't going to be adding to the risks of electoral loss in two years and again in four by another Iraq-style adventure, because electoral success trumps all else, regardless of claims to principle and integrity as motive forces.


Can you say Parliamentary Government? The United States of America doesn't have one. You do. They are quite different.

Your misunderstanding of Jesusland is really astounding. Laughing
We have a rather unique Constitutional Republic.

And, the Iraq issue; the War against Islamic fascism; our troops on the ground, is exactly what won this administration another four years in office.
And, this admininstration can only, only continue to help the Republican party in two years by staying the course.
It would be "electoral" suicide to do anything else.
0 Replies
 
JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 08:14 am
Moishe3rd - The exit poll info re: support for the war bears this out - by more than 70%.

I just have to laugh at the baloney some of the more dull and backwards types want to put forth as fact.

It's no wonder the Dems have lost five of the last seven presidential elections.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 9 Nov, 2004 09:05 am
moishe said
Quote:
Can you say Parliamentary Government? The United States of America doesn't have one. You do. They are quite different...
We have a rather unique Constitutional Republic.


True. Could you please elucidate how this relates to my post?
0 Replies
 
 

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