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200,000 Votes Disqualified in Florida!

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 07:39 am
Well, color me idiotic, because I do, sincerely, believe the US to be the greatest nation in the current world.

Any other idiots want to join me in saying their country is the best, or do you agree that mine is?
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 08:05 am
I think blind patriotism that ignores the need for improvement in any country is a fine definition of idiotic.
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 08:12 am
"Well, color me idiotic"

You look quite sweet in idiotic - or shall we agree to call it motley?

And, personally speaking, no - I would never be so narrow-minded as to call my country the best.

For starters, what criterion shall we use?

Biggest?
Prettiest?
Best educated?
Longest continuing culture? (OZ aborigines would win that one)
Best art?
Wealthiest?
Fattest? (Some African cultures prize this)
Thinnest?
Nicest cattle (Masai)
Most bombs?
Most people?
Cutest men?
Most progressive social policy?
Most beautiful cities?
Producer of most pollution/
Guzzler of most planetary resources?
Clearest blue skies?
Greenest forests?
Highest mountains?



How will you argue for the criteria you use McG (I suspect it is the one most folk do - by some strange accident of fate I was born here - had I been born elsewhere, I should equally fervently trumpet ITS virtues?)

How shall you answer the next country's eejits when they trumpetr THEIR reasons?

Or - do you simply say we should all consider our counrty the best?

Makes the concept meaningless, does it not?
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dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 08:12 am
But this is a digression.....
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 08:17 am
McGentrix wrote:
Well, color me idiotic, because I do, sincerely, believe the US to be the greatest nation in the current world.

Any other idiots want to join me in saying their country is the best, or do you agree that mine is?


Our country, McG, is the strongest and richest (except Luxembourg by some standards is richer) and with personal freedoms equal to any others.

Does that make it the best. For me it does. But that is value judgment on which others may reasonably disagree.
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 08:18 am
a) I do not recall the Democrats complaining about voter fraud in the 90's. Why did they not accuse the Repugs then but do it now? Answer, because they will lose this election like they lost the last one. The transparency of the argument is laughable.

b) I do not feel I am narrow minded when I say the US is the greatest country in the World. But I am also aware that AUstrailia and England are great countries also as is Japan to name a few. For someone to label that sentiment as narrowminded might also be called an intellectual snob by me.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 09:03 am
If I were German, Germany would be the greatest nation on Earth. If I were Australian, Australia would be the greatest nation on Earth. If I were Canadian, the US would be the greatest nation on Earth. ( That last one was a joke and only a joke, please do not get riled up about it.)

It is a matter of personal pride for me. Very citizen should believe their nation is the greatest, else they should move to the country they think is.

To answer your question Dlowan, the best country in the world is the one lucky enough to have ME as a citizen.
0 Replies
 
squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 10:36 am
Ballot instructions confuse voters
Absentee ballots came with two sets of instructions about how to mark a vote. But they contradicted one another on which writing tool to use.
By JEFF TESTERMAN, Times Staff Writer
Published October 16, 2004

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


TAMPA - Kelley Moore opened up his absentee ballot Friday and began reading the instructions. When it came to marking the ballot, the more he read the more confusing it became.

The official printed ballot was clear enough.

It said to mark choices with a No. 2 pencil. But a mimeographed instruction sheet provided by the office of Hillsborough Supervisor of Elections Buddy Johnson cast doubt on that. The sheet said to use black or blue ink or a dark pencil.

"I thought about it awhile and I decided to call and ask," said Moore, 59, a retired salesman who lives on Davis Islands. "They (at Johnson's office) said the information about the No. 2 pencil was incorrect. I was told to use a dark pen.

"But then I thought, what if I use a pen and I don't follow the instructions on the ballot - will they throw it out?"

Edith Schrier was in a similar quandary Friday. Schrier, 46, a Forest Hills resident who runs her own coin and jewelry company, also read both sets of instructions, also called Johnson's office and also was told: disregard the ballot and use a dark pen.

Schrier wasn't satisfied. She called local Democratic officials. They advised her to do what the ballot said: use a pencil.

"But then I thought, what if someone erases it," said Schrier "They could still tamper with it."

Since the disputed presidential election of 2000, when hanging chad, butterfly ballots and aborted recounts raised the consciousness - and paranoia level - of Florida voters, suspicions about ballot-marking instructions can't be dismissed.

Friday afternoon, Johnson said he had great sympathy for voters confused by dual instructions.

He also said absentee voters can use a dark pencil or a blue or black pen and have confidence their votes will be recorded.

"I understand completely," said Johnson. "I think the instructions could be clearer. In an effort to be helpful, we added the second set of instructions. Perhaps next time, we'll try to make it more consistent."

Johnson pointed out that the printed sheet of instructions cautioned voters not to use red ink, which is not easily read by optical scanners.

Alfie Charles, spokesman for Sequoia Voting Systems, which this year printed nearly 56,000 absentee ballots for Hillsborough, said Friday that optical scan devices "will read black ink, blue ink or dark pencil equally well." Charles was also sympathetic about local voters' concerns.

"People in Florida were told they weren't following directions in the 2000 election, and I think they're trying to make sure they do this year," he said. "There's an increased level of awareness now. People are just trying to do the right thing."

But Moore said his effort to get it right just made him angry.

"The voters in Florida look pretty dumb to the rest of the U.S.," he said. "You'd think we could at least get this straight."

http://www.sptimes.com/2004/10/16/Hillsborough/Ballot_instructions_c.shtml
0 Replies
 
Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 10:45 am
Quote:
It is a matter of personal pride for me. Very citizen should believe their nation is the greatest, else they should move to the country they think is.

To answer your question Dlowan, the best country in the world is the one lucky enough to have ME as a citizen.


What a typically arrogant, American answer.

Perhaps you could, I don't know, look at things objectively? Perhaps people don't always have the ability (or desire?) to jump up and move to another country, even if they aren't thrilled with their own?

Your answer shows how much Nationalism has taken over in America.... it's not a good thing...

Cycloptichorn
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woiyo
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 10:53 am
Cyclo - WHY is being proud of your country NOT a good thing? Aren't you proud of your country, your neighborhood, your school?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 10:58 am
Hey, I grew up in Texas. You don't have to explain the concept of pride to me; it's our bread and butter.

But Nationalism has very bad consequences when it becomes the ideology of one's nation... when it drives one's foriegn policies... when one loses the ability to judge one's actions objectively because of a deep-seated belief that they are the 'best' and are not subject to outside judgement...

That is EXACTLY what has happened here in America, and one of the primary reasons the rest of the world has problems with us.

Perhaps a little more objectivity would remind my fellow countrymen that while we do have a lot of great things going for us, there is no god-given mandate for America; there is no more probability that our nation will become dominant (or even survive) than there has been any other nation in the past; to believe so is folly, and will lead down the same road as the other nations which believed that they, too, were supreme and therefore their actions were just by definition.

Cycloptichorn
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:01 am
Not when it is wrong.

Why would I be proud of my school which is promoting a high school science teacher that has a 75% failure rate? Is ignoring parents concerns?

Why would I be proud of my neighborhood, that just passed a resolution that we have to get approval to paint our mailbox, even if it will be painted in the same color? Or, that requires that we get approval to plant a shrub on our own property?

Why should I be proud of my country for Iran Contra? Watergate? Vietnam War? Going to war on false information?

Don't those things strike you as odd things to be proud of?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:09 am
That's hitting the nail on the head, squinney.

I think most Americans don't realize that the idea of America and the reality of how we act as a nation are so far removed as to be two completely seperate things.

So, they are proud of their concept of what America is.... they don't bother to look at the actions we make to see if they match that concept, and therein lies the problem.

Cycloptichorn
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:09 am
squinney wrote:
Not when it is wrong.

Why would I be proud of my neighborhood, that just passed a resolution that we have to get approval to paint our mailbox, even if it will be painted in the same color? Or, that requires that we get approval to plant a shrub on our own property?


You have to get approval to plant a shrub on your property? I have lived in PUDs that require one to get approval to plant a shrub in the common area or easment, but not on your own private property.
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squinney
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:12 am
Yup. And few objected, which really floored Bear and me..
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:14 am
You guys are so proud of your country that you are willing to point out it's flaws.

There is nothing wrong with that. Every country has it's flaws. The question you need to ask yourself though is do the good things outweigh the bad, and in the US, that is a huge YES.

I'll not apologize for thinking my country is the greatest and I'll not begrudge anyone who thinks otherwise. I will, however, suggest that anyone who is not proud of theirs, that they do something about it.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:17 am
Think that's bad?

My parents neighborhood association doesn't allow the parking of cars on the lawn. I don't have a problem with this per se (nice anti-white trash legislation), but my parents like to park two cars side-by-side in front of the garage. This puts my father's truck ONE INCH onto the grass on the side of the driveway, right next to the house.

They got fined for it last year and it took six months of going to meetings and fighting to get the fines removed. Sheesh.

Cycloptichorn
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Letty
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 11:22 am
squinney, sounds as though you and the bear have what is known as a covenant. Same thing here. No one can park an RV in the driveway. Duh!

But planting shrubs and painting mail boxes? I have an idea. Paint your mailbox red, white and blue, and spray paint your shrubs the same color. Let's see what kinda flack ya get. Smile
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 12:00 pm
Seems, I'm out here.

My experience, and that of 80 million Germans plus some hundred million persons more worldwide, is that everyone, how says: 'Germany is the greatest' is a Nazi.

And it (unfortunately) was and is proved: that's correct.
0 Replies
 
dlowan
 
  1  
Reply Tue 19 Oct, 2004 03:01 pm
Larry434 wrote:
dlowan wrote:
Larry434 wrote:
squinney wrote:
I have no idea how anyone will be able to trust whatever figure comes in as a final vote tally Nov. 2.


Our democracy is in shambles.


Sorry, but I think your pronouncement of the demise of Democracy in our Republic is quite premature.

Will there be voter fraud in this election? Of course there will be.

Will some of it go undetected? Proabably.

Has it happened before? Yes, throughout our history.

Is there a more practical system? No.

Can voter fraud be completely eliminated? No, just as criminal behavior cannot be completely eliminated in any other aspect.

Can we do better? Yes.


I am lost, Larry.

Why would the US accept vote fraud???

I cannot imagine it being accepted here. Why do you say it cannot be eliminated?

This is a genuine question, BTW, not a disguised attack.


Because voter fraud is a crime. No matter the vigorousness in fighting crime, some still occurs.


Well, of course it is a crime - but that is very weird logic, and no answer.

Truly, I am not aware that most advanced western democracies accept any such crime in their election processes. Why would the US?
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