Got a bible? Grab it and look at this.

SmokingFire wrote:

Origally man was created in the image of God...

For the remainder of this discussion, I will assume you actually mean...the Bible says originally, man was created in the image of God...and that you, for whatever reasons, guess that this is TRUTH rather than mythology.

But you really should be more careful in your wording...because the way you are working, you are expecting me to accept the kind of thing you are willing to accept...and which I find cartoonishly silly.

Quote:

... and when man ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil they disobeyed God's command. Adam prior to that could be in the presence of God and did not have to do anything to please God. The moment he ate from that tree he lost his identity. Which originally was supposed to be the god of earth. Since we were created in God's image he gave us a mandate.

Quote:
Genises 1:26
26Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over the cattle, over all the earth and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth."

The interesting thing about having the image of God is this, man could freely enter into God's presence since man saw him not inferior to God. Once man lost his image and likeness he could no longer freely be in God's presence, hence the being kicked out of Eden. Now, man being tainted with his disobedience and his sin could not please God. This was his offence to God.

No problem there, SF...except that this is an excellent place to tell you that although I feel John 3:16 is THE most disgusting passage in the Biblethe story of Adam and Eve in Eden is such a close second, I sometimes consider it a tie.

The Adam and Eve story has your god placing two absolutely innocent people in a place with a significant prohibitionthey were not allowed to eat of the fruit of the truth of good and evil.

Imaginethe god set things up so that these innocents had access to the tree and had no idea of what would happen if they disobeyed the god. Remember...they had no idea of the differnce between good and evil.

Ask a third grader what would happen in this situationand almost any of them would be able to tell you that the people more than likely would eat of the fruit. But apparently your omnipotent god could not see what any third grader could easily see.

But just to be sure that they would eat of the fruit (otherwise the myth would not work) the god saw to it that the personification of all evilSatan, in the form of a serpantwas in the garden with the two innocents to tempt them into trying the fruit even further than simply having access was already tempting them.

And for the single indiscretion of eating of this fruitthe god then punishes the innocents by essentially taking everything away from them...and visiting enormous punishment on all the rest of humanity.

MIND YOUdespite the fact that the innocents did not even know that disobeying the god would be considered wronglet alone evil.

Until they actually ate of the fruitTHEY HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA THAT THERE WAS EVILor that disobeying the god had consequences.

They had no ideathe god knew they had no ideaand the god punished them severely despite all that.

What a wonderful god!!!

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Since God is holy and sin cannot stand in the presence of holiness, man could not stand in God's holy presence. God is also righteousness, and for man to deal with God's righteousness he needs to be righteous himself. Therefor God created the law, which was ultimately to make man righteous once again. But man still was disobedient. Therfore God also instituted sacrifice, because of atonement.

Right.

This god decided that although (he) could easily forgive humans their indiscretions(he) would insist that they make sacrifices before (he) would do so.

The god insisted that animals be slaughtered in order to forgive humansand then decided that they had to torture and kill (his) son before (he) would do what (he) easily could have done without all the bloodletting.

The godas we know from other stories in the mythologyis very, very big on bloodletting.

Quote:

Quote:
Exodus 30:10
Once a year Aaron shall make atonement on its horns. This annual atonement must be made with the blood of the atoning sin offering for the generations to come. It is most holy to the LORD ."

Yepthe bloodthirsty god wanted lots and lots of sacrifice.

Quote:

Now, the reason God did this was that man should not die, holiness and sin cannot be in the same presence.

Really!

But this is simply because the god wanted things that way.

Why not change that? What the hellthe god is god, according to the mythology. So why not just change itrather than requiring a bunch of killing in order for it to be okay?

Quote:

Now, for one man's sin we all were tainted

Sounds to me like a rather scumbag thing to doto taint everyone because of one man's sin!

Quote:

and by one man's obedience we were justified.

Yes, you keep saying thatand I keep noting that anyone with a brain would be disgusted by this mythology. It truly is a disgusting notion.

Quote:

The reason Jesus had to be tortured for our sins was that it was God's wrath on our sin.

THINK, man.

If the sins would be forgiven after we tortured and killed Jesuswhy not simply eliminate that step.

Why does this god need bloodletting before it is willing to act? (Lemme give you a hint: Because the mythology was invented by people who thought that is the way gods act!)

Quote:

Since Jesus had no sin he was not judged but took our punishment for our sins. He became our sacrifice which made us be justified through his acts. His 100% obedience set us free from our disobedience, which made us be acceptable in the sight of God once again. So now, by understanding this, can we still sin?

The answer to that is no, through faith accepting this action of Christ we eliminate our possibilities to sin. We are dead to sin and alive to God. Jesus covered us by his obedience and so God doesn't see us but he sees Christ in us. We became free of sin. The reason Christ had to suffer, was that we didn't have to.

Why does your god consider all this slaughter necessary?

Why does it please (him)why does it allow (him) to forgive?

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ww wrote:

God says what he means and means what he says.

The Old Covenant, a covenant of Law, was fulfilled when Jesus bore our sins upon the cross and died.

The Law was given that man would know he is a sinner. Under the Old Covenant sin was punishable.

We are now living under a New Covenant, a covenant of Grace.

So here I go...

Is homosexuality wrong in the sight of God? Yes! It was when he created the universe and still is today. The act is a sin, but the price of that sin has been paid for by Jesus on the cross. Therefore God is not going to strike you down where you stand, God will not tell his faithful followers to stone you. Why? Because God so loved the world that he gave a New covenant, a new Law. The old law still applies, but the penalty has already been paid, but only IF the sinner accepts Jesus as their saviour.

If people do not accept Jesus, the Christ, as their personal saviour, when their mortal bodies die, their immortal Souls will be separated from God for eternity.

God says what he means, and means what he says. And he loves us so much that he gave.

ww

So you believe in slavery right? Because Leviticus also says you can own slaves. It also says if you sleep with your wife when she's menstruating, you be banned from your town. If you swear at your parents, you should be stoned to death.

Are these also your beliefs? Or do you just get to pick and choose what to believe and not believe in the bible?

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Would just like to say something about one thing under discussion, particularly to Frank.

You are absolutely right about Paul (Saul of Taursus). An interesting book about Paul for you to read would be: The Apostle, by Sholem Asch. Written in the 1930s the book was controversial in its time, but I couldn't put it down and wished it would never end. I would rather not discuss this book. It's considered valuable today but could probably be found in large libraries.

Yes, Paul was a monster, but that's why he was chosen for the role he played. Could Peter have told the gentiles, "If I can be forgiven, anyone can." He was forgiven, but Paul did suffer mightily. We are not just merely forgiven for hidious acts.

About the subject matter here. I think the strange things God prohibited the OT people from doing were for their own good, including homosexuality, heterosexuality, the blood thing. Weren't pigs rather filthy creatures? I recall as a child that pigs were creatures who ate the "slop" from the human's tables. Also, consider the obsession with the washing of our hands, today, when we or someone else is ill. Bacteria does kill us, give us dreaded diseases.

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Sunlover...I understand what you are saying...

...but...

...to attempt to rationalize some of the things the god of the Bible says as being "for their own good"...really glosses over a great deal.

Look...I have no idea if there is a God or not...and certainly, if there is a God...that God could pretty much do and say whatever it pleases.

I acknowledge that without qualification.

But if we are to take the words of the Bible to make a judgment about whether the book is more likely a recitation of what GOD...THE MAKER OF EVERYTHING (should such a God exist)...feels and wants

...or...

...a compilation of what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one...

...we've got to look at the words with an open mind.

Here are a couple of for-instances:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves." Leviticus 25:44ff

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred." Leviticus 21:18ff

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." [Deuteronomy 13:13-19]

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

Do you see a pattern developing here????

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Frank, you took my point to another level. I grew up catholic, but once I was able to fully evaluate the beliefs and positions of the bible, I realized it wasn't the religion for me.

Personally, I think religion, if used for it's general purposes (ie the 10 commandments) can be a useful tool for society. It's when people start taking the preachings of the bible/New Testament/Koran et all literally, things go out of wack.

If I ever was going to believe in a religion, it probably would be buddhism. It is the one belief that keeps to the one of the best credos know to man. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, because your own happiness is caused from your own actions and your unhappiness is also caused by your morally wrong actions.

Ironically, Matthew chapter 7 deals with similar credos, but unfortunately, it's never looked upon as the main belief for catholicism.

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Frank, "God" is within us and speaks to us from there. The small quiet voice, or that gut feeling we get. Whatever anyone says, no God says the words you quote. No God speaks outside of us.

There are other teachings of a more positive nature. I was brought up attending church 3x a week but nobody told me how to think, just presented all those bible stories. At times there were screaming men at the pulpit. Maybe I thought everyone was like me and never heard a word they said. I enjoyed my friends, the singing.
I got most of my spiritual education (much later)from a Unity church and a coupla other places with great bookstores.

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SmokingFire wrote:

I believe that Jesus chose him for this very reason, to be the preacher to the "gentiles" since Jesus' mission was not to save the gentiles but to save the Jews which most of them rejected him, and it was Paul who reached out to the gentiles...hanging with the greeks and the romans and so on....the impact of Jesus on paul made Paul spread the news to all those that was near him...

Paul never met Jesus (hallucinations "on the road" notwithstanding)

SmokingFire wrote:

The NT basically completes the law and makes you live under grace therfore making you righteous through the act of Christ. If you were to base your life on the OT you would be trying to live through works which is futile in the sight of God, therfor still living on the works of the law you would still be condemning yourself to death, since the law is a condemning law, whereas the law of grace is the opposite...

Paul invented the theology of atonement not Jesus.

SmokingFire wrote:

...they try to please God through works and not through faith, which was one of the essential teachings of Christ...

Bzzzzt! Wrong.

SmokingFire wrote:

...he (Paul NOT Jesus) also preached acceptance through faith and not work...

Paul:
Galatians 2:16 (Galatians 3:11)
A man is not justified by the works of the Law, but by faith in Jesus Christ.
and:
Romans 3:28
A man is justified by faith, without the deeds of the Law.

Paul said:

We who are Jews by birth and not "Gentile sinners" know that a man is not justified by observing the law, but by faith in Jesus Christ. So we, too, have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law, because by observing the law no one is justified.
Galatians 2:15-16

This directly contradicts Jesus:
"Do not think I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have come not to abolish the law but to fulfil them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Anyone who breaks the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses those of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven."
Matthew 5:17-20

There are several verses where Jesus told of gaining the kingdom of heaven by works alone as well as faith AND works... but only Paul taught salvation through faith alone.

Matt 7:18-23
"Thus you will know them by their fruits. Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many deeds of power in your name?' Then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; go away from me, you evildoers.' "

Many so-called "Christians" give lip service to Jesus, and then ignore Jesus' teaching about Faith proven by "works", in favor of Paul's teaching about Faith without works.

While PAUL clearly taught that we are saved by being passive beneficiaries of what Christ did, JESUS clearly taught that our salvation hinges on what we do (our "works"), along with what God does (God's "grace").

See also:
Luke 10: 25-37
Matthew 4: 17-19
Matthew 5: 2-19
Matthew 7: 24-29
Matthew 21: 21-32
Matthew 10: 32-36
Matthew 10: 37-42
Matthew 12: 33-37
Luke 6 : 45-49
Matthew 25: 31-46
Luke 18: 18-23
Luke 19: 7-10
John 5: 29
John 13: 13-17
1 John 3: 17-29
Rev. 2:23
Rev. 20: 11--12

So... are you a Christian? or a Paulian? Question

To sum up:
I agree with Frank. Very Happy

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Thor...excellent post! Terrific research!

Sunlover You wrote:

Quote:

Frank, "God" is within us and speaks to us from there.

How do you know that?

Or are you just making a wild guess...something you simply pulled out of the air because you think it sounds good and may possibly earn you some brownie points with your god?

Quote:

The small quiet voice, or that gut feeling we get.

How do you know that the small quiet voice or gut feeling we get...is not just a gut feeling?

Or are you just making a wild guess...something you pulled out of the air because you think it sounds good?

Quote:

Whatever anyone says, no God says the words you quote. No God speaks outside of us.

I've read this over several times...and I cannot make any sense of it at all.

What were you trying to say?

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Joe Republican wrote:

Personally, I think religion, if used for it's general purposes (ie the 10 commandments) can be a useful tool for society. It's when people start taking the preachings of the bible/New Testament/Koran et all literally, things go out of wack.

If I ever was going to believe in a religion, it probably would be Buddhism. It is the one belief that keeps to one of the best credos known to man. Do unto others as you would have others do unto you, because your own happiness is caused from your own actions and your unhappiness is also caused by your morally wrong actions.

That is how I feel as well.

It is quite interesting to me that all religions include something similar to 'the golden rule' ... i.e., 'do unto others as you would have done unto you.'

Actually, I prefer the Eastern religions because so much emphasis is placed on meditation. It's just that, of them all, Buddhism speaks most directly to me.

However, Taoism does a pretty darn good job as well:

Quote:

Taoism is a way of life - nothing mystic here - inspired, it's true, from the rhythms of the natural phenomena.

But how could a human way of life draw its inspiration from nature? The best example is offered by martial arts, which borrowed initially the essential elements - attack, defense, slipping away - from the corresponding movements of the wild animals.

Lao-tzu Page

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Lots of gold in this thread. I particularly liked the word "cartoonishly".

Something that was mentioned before was about versions of the bible. Maybe somebody who is older and wiser can tell me what they know about who all was in charge of deciding what all went into the bible. I sure do know that whoever it was, they had some pretty warped views. The official position of the Catholic church has never been on very steady ground according to current norms of ethics/morality/knowledge. What all was left out just because the earth is the center of the universe?

You know what would put this whole thing (by which I mean christianity, and subsequently, the rest of the religions, as the US starts to encourage atheism) to rest? If somebody could cleverly catch jesus in a clear sin. It don't work if he ain't sinless.

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binnyboy wrote:

You know what would put this whole thing (by which I mean christianity, and subsequently, the rest of the religions, as the US starts to encourage atheism) to rest? If somebody could cleverly catch jesus in a clear sin. It don't work if he ain't sinless.

I disagree. Christianity would find a way to explain away what, at first blush (staying away from the gold here :wink: ) appears to be a 'clear sin.'

Since religion is based on faith, why would you think you could apply logic to it?

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Frank, say we as Christians are wrong, where do we go? what happens to us? if you are wrong and we are right you will spend the rest of eternity in hell.

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koodles4you wrote:

Frank, say we as Christians are wrong, where do we go? what happens to us? if you are wrong and we are right you will spend the rest of eternity in hell.

Frank is an agnostic. Agnostics don't believe they know. It sucks to tolerate ambiguity ... I'd much rather have your faith, I think. .... or not. :wink:

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koodles4you wrote:

Frank, say we as Christians are wrong, where do we go? what happens to us? if you are wrong and we are right you will spend the rest of eternity in hell.

Only if the God that happens to exist is a monstrous, scumbag like the god described in the Bible.

If that piece of shyt god actually exists...I AM going to spend eternity in hell...because there is no way I can even stand that god, let alone love and worship it.

But the question I might ask you is: Why would you worship...or pretend to love...a god who plans to punish some people by torturing them relentlessly for all the rest of eternity?

Saddam Hussein was not that disgusting; Napoleon wasn't; Nero wasn't.

Why would you worship...or pretend to love...a god who plans to punish some people by torturing them relentlessly FOR ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY?????

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Sunlover...I understand what you are saying...

...but...

...to attempt to rationalize some of the things the god of the Bible says as being "for their own good"...really glosses over a great deal.

Look...I have no idea if there is a God or not...and certainly, if there is a God...that God could pretty much do and say whatever it pleases.

I acknowledge that without qualification.

But if we are to take the words of the Bible to make a judgment about whether the book is more likely a recitation of what GOD...THE MAKER OF EVERYTHING (should such a God exist)...feels and wants

...or...

...a compilation of what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one...

...we've got to look at the words with an open mind.

Here are a couple of for-instances:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves." Leviticus 25:44ff

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"When you march up to attack a city, first offer terms of peace.
If it agrees to your terms of peace and opens its gates to you,
all the people to be found in it shall serve you in forced labor.
But if it refuses to make peace with you and instead offers you
battle, lay siege to it, and when the Lord, your God, delivers it
into your hand, put every male in it to the sword, but the women
and children and livestock and all else in it that is worth
plunder you may take as your booty and you may use this plunder
of your enemies which the Lord, your God, has given you." Deuteronomy 20:10

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"I, the Lord, your God, am a jealous God, inflicting punishments
for their fathers' wickedness on the children of those who hate
me, down to the third and fourth generation." Deuteronomy 5:9

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred." Leviticus 21:18ff

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

Suppose you hear in one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you that some worthless rabble among you have led their fellow citizens astray by encouraging them to worship foreign gods. In such cases, you must examine the facts carefully. If you find it is true and can prove that such a detestable act has occurred among you, you must attack that town and completely destroy all its inhabitants, as well as all the livestock. Then you must pile all the plunder in the middle of the street and burn it. Put the entire town to the torch as a burnt offering to the LORD your God. That town must remain a ruin forever; it may never be rebuilt. Keep none of the plunder that has been set apart for destruction. Then the LORD will turn from his fierce anger and be merciful to you. He will have compassion on you and make you a great nation, just as he solemnly promised your ancestors. "The LORD your God will be merciful only if you obey him and keep all the commands I am giving you today, doing what is pleasing to him." [Deuteronomy 13:13-19]

Keeping an open minddoes this sound more like something GOD would sayor what a group of relatively unknowledgeable, relatively unsophisticated, superstitious ancient Hebrews might want a God to say if they decided to invent one?

Do you see a pattern developing here????

Frank...I have but one problem in your argument, the scriptures that you so well qouted are incomplete and only in part, you failed to list the entire scripture.

Quote:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves." Leviticus 25:44ff

In this part you failed to mention on how they became slaves in the first part, slaves weren't forced to be slaves or commonly known as servants, they sold themselves. This being if the person had no money, and offered up his life for payment, which was only allowed for seven years, after that the servent was forced to be free. And in that part of the bible it spoke in leviticus 25 that the people of Israel shall not make their own people slaves and subject them to that but treat their brothers as working men, whereas those who are not of your family you shall treat them as "slaves" or servants.

Quote:

"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

This is absolutely not right at all, you obviously used this and manipulated the scripture for your own benefit since,

Quote:

Deuteronomy 22:13-18 N.I.V

13 If a man takes a wife and, after lying with her, dislikes her 14 and slanders her and gives her a bad name, saying, "I married this woman, but when I approached her, I did not find proof of her virginity," 15 then the girl's father and mother shall bring proof that she was a virgin to the town elders at the gate. 16 The girl's father will say to the elders, "I gave my daughter in marriage to this man, but he dislikes her. 17 Now he has slandered her and said, 'I did not find your daughter to be a virgin.' But here is the proof of my daughter's virginity." Then her parents shall display the cloth before the elders of the town, 18 and the elders shall take the man and punish him. 19 They shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give them to the girl's father, because this man has given an Israelite virgin a bad name. She shall continue to be his wife; he must not divorce her as long as he lives.

Quote:

"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred." Leviticus 21:18ff

Once again taking out scripture to benefit your argument, first of all the passage speaks of the priests, they must be the example of the body of Israel, so these rules didn't apply to everybody. And the "..." that you so conveniently placed also spoke of this...

Quote:

He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food;

Basically what I am saying is that, you try to make a good point, but without valid backing since you only showed a part of the truth and not the entire truth. If you bring forth an argument of the Bible, please read the entire passage and then you can begin to speak of it.

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ForeverYoung wrote:

Frank is an agnostic. Agnostics don't believe they know.

If you are going to get involved here, FY...get it right.

Agnostics KNOW they do not know.

There is no f*****g ambiguity about that.

It is purely honest...and to the point. And it is anything but ambiguous.

Quote:

It sucks to tolerate ambiguity ... I'd much rather have your faith, I think. .... or not. :wink:

Whatever drives your engine!

Personally, I'd rather be truthful.

I do not know if there is a God....

...I do not know if there are no gods...

...I do not see anywhere near enough unambiguous evidence upon which to base a meaningful, rational guess in either direction.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Why would you worship...or pretend to love...a god who plans to punish some people by torturing them relentlessly FOR ALL THE REST OF ETERNITY?????

Why...because above all these things you listed God is still more loving and has more grace than you give to him. God gives all chance to come to Him, but it is man who slaps Him in His face. Most people fear judgement because they feel unworthy and fear punishment, the verdict of judgement is either guilty or innocent. God wishes all to be innocent and gives them ample oppertunity to repent and to be declared innocent, yet, man refuses. So if your guilty your guilty. And then will know that the punishment was hell, so...it is up to every man to accept or reject. You are trying to go against absolutes, whether you wish to accept it or not, the absolute doesn't change.

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Go SmokingFire!! I 100% agree.
Why would the God of everything allow you to come into Heaven if you didn't even believe he existed? And it seems to me by sending you to hell he might be doing you a favor, since that is where you wish to be isn't it?
What horrible things has God done to deserve being called worse that Saddam Hussian?
And if you seem to believe in nothing, what is your propose of living? What do you hope to achieve?

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In fact, it saddens the heart of God to have His children reject Him, regardles of all the people He sent in your way. It saddens my heart to see people speak so blatently against their own lives as well, now, I will bever force anyone to believe what I believe, no, that is your walk not mine. All I do is bring forth of what I know and what I live to light, so people can judge for themselves.

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SmokingFire wrote:

[Frank...I have but one problem in your argument, the scriptures that you so well qouted are incomplete and only in part, you failed to list the entire scripture.

Quote:
"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess...such slaves
you may own as chattels, and leave to your sons as their
hereditary property, making them perpetual slaves." Leviticus 25:44ff

In this part you failed to mention on how they became slaves in the first part, slaves weren't forced to be slaves or commonly known as servants, they sold themselves. This being if the person had no money, and offered up his life for payment, which was only allowed for seven years, after that the servent was forced to be free. And in that part of the bible it spoke in leviticus 25 that the people of Israel shall not make their own people slaves and subject them to that but treat their brothers as working men, whereas those who are not of your family you shall treat them as "slaves" or servants.

Nonsense...that is not what that passage says at all. And since you want the passage quoted completely...here it is:

"Slaves, male and female, you may indeed possess, provided you BUY them from among the neighboring nations. You may also BUY them from among the aliens who reside with you and from their children who are born and reared in your land. Such slaves YOU MAY OWN AS CHATTELS, and leave to your sons as their hereditary property, MAKING THEM PERPETUAL SLAVES. But you shall not lord it harshly over any of the Israelites, your kinsmen."
Leviticus 25:44

I think this is from a King James Bible...but the Catholic and Jewish Bibles say just about identical things. I am willing to quote directly from them if you think it necessary...but there are no significant differences...and certainly none that substantiate what you are alleging.

To suggest that I altered this text to suit my purpose is a goddam lie on your part.

Quote:

Quote:
"If a man has a stubborn and unruly son who will not listen to
his father or mother, and will not obey them even though they
chastise him, his father and mother shall have him apprehended
and brought out to the elders at the gate of his home city, where
...his fellow citizens shall stone him to death." Deuteronomy 22:18ff

This is absolutely not right at all, you obviously used this and manipulated the scripture for your own benefit since,

Quote:
Deuteronomy 22:13-18 N.I.V
..you then went on to quote from 22:13

I did type in the wrong reference on this quote. It should be Deuteronomy 21:18ff. 21 not 22.

AND IT READS EXACTLY AS I HAVE QUOTED IT.

The "manipulation" was nothing more than a typo.

Quote:

Quote:
"Therefore, he who has any of the following defects may not come
forward: he who is blind, or lame, or who has any disfigurement
or malformation, or crippled foot or hand....he may not approach
the veil nor go up to the altar on account of these defects; he
shall not profane these things that are sacred to me, for it is
I, the Lord, who make them sacred." Leviticus 21:18ff

Once again taking out scripture to benefit your argument, first of all the passage speaks of the priests, they must be the example of the body of Israel, so these rules didn't apply to everybody. And the "..." that you so conveniently placed also spoke of this...

Quote:
He has a defect; he must not come near to offer the food of his God. 22 He may eat the most holy food of his God, as well as the holy food;

What difference does that make. This god says that people with physical defects and infirmities will profane sacred places.

You are the one trying to revise what is said...not me.

Quote:

Basically what I am saying is that, you try to make a good point, but without valid backing since you only showed a part of the truth and not the entire truth. If you bring forth an argument of the Bible, please read the entire passage and then you can begin to speak of it.

Bullshyt. A typo does not constitute any kind of duplicity.

If you want to speak of any of these things...we can do it.

Let start with the first one. Let's limit ourselves just to that one...and discuss it until we reach an agreement on what your god was saying.

I am saying that you god was saying that slaves could be owned...that they could be treated as chattels...and that they could be kept as slaves for the entire of their lives.

What do you say your god is saying?

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Got a bible? Grab it and look at this.

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