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sh*t boat veterans get da boot

 
 
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 03:04 pm
Long but worth the read.
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Type: Discussion • Score: 1 • Views: 3,673 • Replies: 77
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roger
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 03:23 pm
From the link:

"In the Silver Star incident, John Kerry's citation reflects that he charged into a numerically superior force, and into intense fire," O'Neill told ABC News in an August 2004 interview. "But the actual facts are that there was a single kid there who had fired a rocket, who popped up, and John Kerry with his gunboat, with or without a number of troops, depending on who you talk to, plopped in front of the kid. The kid was wounded in the legs by machine gun fire, and as he ran off, John Kerry jumped off the boat and shot the kid in the back."

I'm not up to speed on the situation, Coach. Kid fires a rocket at you and retreats. You're supposed to let him go, and see if he comes back later? I'm nobody's Kerry fan, but this isn't much of an issue, unless the medal rather than the incident, is the point of the article.

Had I been planning to vote for Kerry (I hadn't been), this wouldn't switch my vote. Likewise, it wouldn't persuade me to vote for him.
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princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 03:55 pm
The article is about how the vietnamese at the place of the battle remember it: apparently "the kid" was a 26~27 year old soldier who was shot in the chest... Read the article: it's interesting and has a nice photo of Kerry holding a puppy looking still like a kid rather than a grown man.

Quote:


"When the firing started, Ba Thanh was killed," Tam said. "And I led Ba Thanh's comrades, the whole unit, to fight back. And we ran around the back and fought the Americans from behind. We worked with the city soldiers to fire on the American boats."

According to the after-action report, after beaching the Swift boat, Kerry "chased VC inland, behind hooch, and shot him while he fled, capturing one B-40 rocket launcher, with round in chamber."

None of the villagers seems to be able to say for a fact that they saw an American chase the man who fired the B-40 into the woods and shoot him. Nobody seems to remember that. But they have no problem remembering Ba Thanh, the man who has been dismissed by Kerry's detractors as "a lone, wounded, fleeing, young Vietcong in a loincloth." (The description comes from "Unfit for Command," by Swift boat veteran John O'Neill.)

"No, this is not correct," Nguyen Thi Tuoi, 77, told ABC News. "He wore a black pajama. He was strong. He was big and strong. He was about 26 or 27."

Tuoi said she didn't see Ba Thanh get shot either, but she and her husband say

Her husband, Nguyen Van Ty, in his 80s, had a slightly different account of how Ba Thanh died.

"I didn't see anything because I was hiding from the bullets and the bombs," he said. "It was very fierce and there was shooting everywhere and the leaves were being shredded to pieces. I was afraid to stay up there. I had to hide. And then, when it was over, I saw Ba Thanh was dead. He may have been shot in the chest when he stood up."

He also said the Swift boats were coming under attack from the Viet Cong fighters on shore. "We tried to shoot at the boat," he said, "but we didn't hit anything."

Kerry's citation says he "uncovered an enemy rest and supply area, which was destroyed," but according to the villagers, the Americans missed the military supplies. In fact, Vo Ti Vi said, just a few weeks after the attack, the Viet Cong raided a U.S. base stealing weapons and ammunition. The weapons remain in Nha Vi all these years later, she says, buried under her garden.

Back in Tran Thoi, villager Nguyen Van Khoai said that about six months ago he was visited by an American who described himself as a Swift boat veteran and told him another American from the Swift boats was running for president of the United States. Nguyen said the man was accompanied by a cameraman.

"They say he didn't do anything to deserve the medal," Nguyen said. "The other day, they came and asked me the questions and I said that the recognition for the medal is up to the U.S.A."

He said that, after they met, the Swift Boat veteran and the cameraman turned around and went back down the river. "Nightline" has not been able to identify the men.

His awards should have been the most unassailable part of Kerry's record. But then came those campaign ads from the Swift Boat Veterans for Truth. "He is lying about his record," said Ensign Al French in one ad.

Most of the charges in the ads were general: "When the chips were down you could not count on John Kerry," said Lt. j.g. Larry Thurlow. "John Kerry is no war hero," said Lt. Bob Elder. Some of the charges referred to the anti-war testimony Kerry gave before Congress.

But John O'Neill, the officer who took over command of Kerry's Swift boat after Kerry left Vietnam, raised some specific questions about the incident for which Kerry received his most significant award, the Silver Star:

"In the Silver Star incident, John Kerry's citation reflects that he charged into a numerically superior force, and into intense fire," O'Neill told ABC News in an August 2004 interview. "But the actual facts are that there was a single kid there who had fired a rocket, who popped up, and John Kerry with his gunboat, with or without a number of troops, depending on who you talk to, plopped in front of the kid. The kid was wounded in the legs by machine gun fire, and as he ran off, John Kerry jumped off the boat and shot the kid in the back."
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princesspupule
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:36 pm
Basically, it proves that eyewitnesses to the event disagree with the swift boat spinners version. They had no agenda to follow, unlike the spinners. I believe their version since it matches up with the official record over the allegations without any sort of documentation except the memory of some of the few who were there. Rolling Eyes
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Sun 17 Oct, 2004 08:59 pm
Did I miss something in the article? They all (the Vietnamese) say they didn't see anything and don't really know for sure how the young man died.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 06:22 am
But they also say that there was a large number of VietCong in the area who were specifically targeting swift boats -- and that the young man was wearing the standard black pajama. This would contradict the 'lone kid in a loin cloth' idea.
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Harper
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 06:26 am
Case closed
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 07:35 am
Freeduck - you seem a rational sort. Has it occurred to you that there's something just a bit odd about ABC going all the way to Vietnam, yet they've never bothered to put the Swift Vets on camera?

Seems if it's those vets they're trying to discredit they'd get them on camera and ask the hard questions. Yet the media hasn't done this.

I think I know why. I think they're afraid if the public ever saw them interviewed, well, they might just see how credible they are. Not to mention they have quite a bit of evidence assmbled to make their case.

Otherwise, why doesn't ABC just go face-to-face with them and demolish them? They could show all 60 of 'em...all of whom signed affidavits... to be partisan liars, huh?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 08:16 am
Basically, something like 90% of the people who ever served with or around Kerry are on record to the effect that the guy is unfit for command. That's good enough for me in spades.
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 08:20 am
Thanks for that made-up 90% figure. That helps.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 08:27 am
kickycan wrote:
Thanks for that made-up 90% figure. That helps.


I said 'something like 90%'. From what I read, that's about ballpark.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Mon 18 Oct, 2004 10:14 am
JustWonders wrote:
Freeduck - you seem a rational sort. Has it occurred to you that there's something just a bit odd about ABC going all the way to Vietnam, yet they've never bothered to put the Swift Vets on camera?



Not really. The swiftvets have had their say on many a news program, in a book, and on their website. One might wonder why they never went all the way to Vietnam to interview the witnesses -- unless they did that but didn't hear what they wanted to hear.

Nobody gives a crap about this anymore because none of the accusations can be proven and it's clear that most people in the group are really just angry about his anti-war activities and not about his service.
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Armyvet35
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:25 am
Free Smile

Why wont Kerry release his 201 file in its entirety? He could put an end to this if he would so why not do it ?

Everyone that has a 201 file knows how important and revealing that document is. If you tout yourself as this brave war hero then back it up and prove those other vets wrong.

Kerry served 4 months in nam and many of those swift boat vets served 1 to 4 tours, yet you call all of them liars. Swift boat vets against Kerry outnumber swift boat vets for Kerry 5 to 1. 200,000 Military Vets and swift boat VEts signed a petition to ask Kerry to release that 201 file and to this day he hasnt and continues to refuse, why is that?

If he is in fact not lying, and has nothing to hide, and can prove them wrong then by all means sign the consent and let us see what the 201 file says.

I will say this. I served 12 years and my 201 file is over 300 pages in length. It has every personal detail one could only imagine surrounding my deployments, medical, dental, awards, schools and training in complete detail and documents backing it. That is why alot of vets question Kerry's service record. If he is so willing to lable himself this big hero and brag about his awards why is he not so willing to let us see the "real deal" surrounding them?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:33 am
A fundamental misunderstanding is that Kerry is bragging about his hero status. While he has talked about his service in the context of his entire life of public service, he has not, in fact, bragged about himself as a hero.

Those vets are contradicted by Navy records -- which have been released. The point of the continued attacks and the insistence on Kerry releasing this file you talk of is not to find out what Kerry did during his 2 tours of duty, but to keep everyone talking about a very divisive time in American history. I don't blame Kerry for releasing what he released and moving on. This is a non-issue.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:38 am
Kerry isn't releasing the records for the same reason Bush wouldn't for so long.

Becuase there are a ton of jackals out there waiting to pick it apart. Kerry doesn't gain anything by releasing his records; all he does is invite himself for further scrutiny, when he would rather have the scrutiny on his opponent.

I don't know what's in his records, and frankly, neither do you. But why assume he's guilty of anything? We should be thinking about the future, not the past....

Cycloptichorn
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Armyvet35
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:45 am
Kerry has indeed said his military service in Nam makes him a better Commander in Chief, and people in the military do not agree.

If he wants to tout his service record as making him more qualified then why refuse to release military records?

Also if you really knew anything about a 201 file review board you would know something big happened to go to that extreme to fix something like say a less than honorable discharge..
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Armyvet35
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:47 am
Freedick Smile 2 tours? he didnt even complete one tour in nam....
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Armyvet35
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:48 am
Gads I meant freeduck...sorry
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OCCOM BILL
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 09:58 am
BM
0 Replies
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Thu 21 Oct, 2004 11:05 am
Armyvet35 wrote:
Freedick Smile 2 tours? he didnt even complete one tour in nam....


Armyvet35, I am so completely on your side on this issue, but please don't use deragatory terms when referring to other users. Just offering my advice as you be taken more seriously if you don't.

He actually was in the south Pacific for a year and 4 months before he got his third band-aid and ran for home.
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