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Global Warming: Junk Mathematics

 
 
McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 08:11 am
Gungasnake, evolution has not been disproven and is a viable alternative to creationism.

You can't counter physical evidence with a book.
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 08:36 am
I think perhaps we have evidence in the specific that a child was left behind.
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 08:55 am
gungasnake wrote:
If less than 1% of europeans do anything other than believe wholeheartedly in evolutionism, then Europe needs to be reeducated.


Well, since 99+% does - that will take some time.
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 09:18 am
McGentrix wrote:
Gungasnake, evolution has not been disproven and is a viable alternative to creationism.

You can't counter physical evidence with a book.


Okay, so I'm the only one on this forum who's kept up with this one...

First off, when you talk about evolution, you have to discern two kinds of it and keep the two kinds separated.

MICROEVOLUTION is a proven fact of life and nobody argues over it. Microevolution means brown moths changing to white ones, finches with short beaks changing to finches with longer beaks, and that sort of thing.

MACROEVOLUTION is the notion that new KINDS of animals can somehow arise via an accumulation of the changes involved in microevolution and/or via mutations and this is the thing which is normally referred to as the theory of evolution.

There is no evidence supporting macroevolution at all. In fact when scientists tried to prove the concept in the early 1900s, they utterly failed and the failure was so stark and garish that a number of the scientists involved publically renounced evolution at the time, most notably Goldschmidt who devised his "hopeful monster" theory as a possible replacement.

What they did, over a period of about twenty years, involved fruit flies which breed new generations every few days. Twenty years worth of that is equal to tens of thousands of generations of any normal animal, i.e. enough for any possibility of macroevolution to be observed without requiring millions of years.

What they did was to subject those flies to everything in the world known to cause mutations, including electricity, chemicals, heat, cold, noise, silence, vibration, and basically just everything, and then recombine like mutants in every possible way.

And all they ever got was what the breeders told Charles Darwin was all he would ever get via mutation when they told him he was full of **** in the 1850s, i.e. fruit flies, sterile mutants, and next generations of mutants which returned, boomarang-like, to the norm for a fruit fly. Basically, all they had to show for their work after 20 years was fruit flies. No wasps, ants, spiders, mantises, beetles, hornets, mosquitos, or any other kind of animal whatsoever; just fruit flies.

Basically, the typical yuppie who believes in evolution does not really understand the meaning of "natural selection" and assumes it to be some sort of magical process which produces new kinds of animals. Natural selection in fact is a destructive process and not a constructive one. You could no more create a new species with natural selection than you could build a skyscraper with a wrecking ball. Natural selection is the conservative process which weeds out everything an iota to the left or right of dead center for the norm of a given animal species. It is an agent of stasis and not of change.

What the theory of evolution actually says is that chance mutations create new kinds of animals and that, amongst these new kinds of animals, natural selection then weeds out the "unfit".

The only problem is that, in real life, mutations all have names, such as "Down's Syndrome", "Tay-Sachs", "cri-du-chat syndrome", phoco-locii etc. etc. etc. Ever notice the women walking door to door collecting money for the Mothers' March of Dimes? Ever notice that they are ALWAYS collecting money for research to PREVENT mutations, and never for money for research to CAUSE them? Think there might be a reason for that??

Charles Darwin's theory demands that these kinds of mutations which are invariably destructive and detrimental, are the root cause of our entire biosphere, starting from one-celled animals. The whole idea is basically idiotic.



More info on fruit flies:

http://www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/10mut10.htm
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 09:37 am
Let's look at the alternative theory.

Eight or so people loaded up between 2 and 7 members of each of the existing species into a great big boat.

All of the present species were on that boat (since new species don't ever develop).

Discuss amongst yourselves...
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:02 am
ebrown_p wrote:
Let's look at the alternative theory..


You're claiming that there is only one possible alternative theory...

I cannot think of a reason for that; it seems more likely to me that ten people could come up with ten separate alternative theories in a day's time, and that all ten of them would make more sense than a theory requiring a total inversion of the laws of probability, i.e. than evolutionism. In other words, my alternative theory, my cat's alternate theory, and Freddy the Freeloader's alternate theory would all HAVE to be better than evolution, simply because they could not possibly be worse.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:03 am
What is your alternative theory then? What do you believe?

Are you saying that the flood of Noah isn't true?
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:11 am
Quote:
Charles Darwin's theory demands that these kinds of mutations which are invariably destructive and detrimental, are the root cause of our entire biosphere, starting from one-celled animals. The whole idea is basically idiotic.


You really need to re-read Origin of Species.

Noone is arguing that the vast majority of mutations are harmful. This is true. But, if even 1%, or .01%, of mutations allow for a genetic advantage, over time, this advantage shows itself. You have to understand the time periods involved here - an animal could remain perfectly static for a million years due to a lack of environmental pressure, and then be forced into mutation and change by an extinction event or global climate change.

This leads to macroevolution. THere's tons of evidence for it. Are you seriously making this argument?

Cycloptichorn
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:20 am
Cycloptichorn wrote:
Quote:
Charles Darwin's theory demands that these kinds of mutations which are invariably destructive and detrimental, are the root cause of our entire biosphere, starting from one-celled animals. The whole idea is basically idiotic.


You really need to re-read Origin of Species.

Noone is arguing that the vast majority of mutations are harmful. This is true. But, if even 1%, or .01%, of mutations allow for a genetic advantage, over time, this advantage shows itself. You have to understand the time periods involved here - an animal could remain perfectly static for a million years due to a lack of environmental pressure, and then be forced into mutation and change by an extinction event or global climate change.

This leads to macroevolution. THere's tons of evidence for it. Are you seriously making this argument?

Cycloptichorn


You're trying to combine two things which don't combine, i.e. the idea of Darwinian (imperceptibly slow) evolution via an agglomeration of the exceedingly rare/non-existent "beneficial mutations", with the Velikovsky/Gould type notion of blazingly fast evolution at the times of geological upheavals. There IS evidence that new kinds of animals might have arisen at times which correspond to geological changes, but there is no evidence that such change occurred via anything you might call evolution. Gould in fact does not provide any sort of a mechanism for his "punctuated equilibrium", referring only vaguely to "speciation events".
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:24 am
What would YOU call the method of change that species undergo during times of geological upheavals?

It doesn't matter if you call it by another name, the creation/rise of new animals where previously they did not exist is evolution. Unless you are arguing divine intervention, in which case this discussion will be over, as I've no time to argue with fools.

Cycloptichorn
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:26 am
ebrown_p wrote:
What is your alternative theory then? What do you believe?

Are you saying that the flood of Noah isn't true?


My theory is that you look at the evidence and try to determine what sort of a totally reasonable statement you could make from it, and not try to make any sort of a claim beyond what the evidence actually justifies.

What the evidence of our biological record indicates is that genetic engineering and re-engineering of complex life forms were ongoing concerns on our planet until some very recent age, after which all such activity stopped, and that no such activity has taken place since then. Moreover it seems obvious that more than one set of hands was involved. There is no rational way to picture an omnipotent, loving God creating biting flies, mosquitos, chiggers, ticks, African bees, funnel web spiders, or disease organisms. Whoever created those things was some sort of an asshole.
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:31 am
So God created horses and cows and honey bees and some other deity created mosquitos and African bees?
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gungasnake
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:38 am
ebrown_p wrote:
So God created horses and cows and honey bees and some other deity created mosquitos and African bees?


God or somebody. Like I say, the evidence indicates that at least two pairs of hands were involved. That's all the evidence seems to indicate.
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Cycloptichorn
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:44 am
Quote:
There is no rational way to picture an omnipotent, loving God creating biting flies, mosquitos, chiggers, ticks, African bees, funnel web spiders, or disease organisms. Whoever created those things was some sort of an ****.


There are two flaws in your reasoning.

First, there's no such thing as an omnipotent, loving god. The two terms are mutualy exclusive.

Read Anselm's theorem and you should be able to work out why for yourself.

Second, all those things you say a 'loving' god couldn't have created, could very easily have been created by him. Why? Because, erroneously, you assume that God will put your health and happiness first over the functioning of the eco-system.

Creationism is stupid. But if we are accepting that as part of the argument, then every one of those things you mentioned - funnel spiders, chiggers, whatever - serve a purpose in the ecosystem, and therefore are part of the plan.

You really need to clean your logic up before you start arguing evolution.

Cycloptichorn
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ebrown p
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 10:46 am
Do we both agree that God (that is the loving caring one) created frogs?

This God would have loved and cared for the frogs which caused Him to create mosquitos. Mosquitos are very bad if you are a human being. But, from a frog's perspective they are a pretty good thing.

Or is there a frog God (i.e. a God who loves and cares for frogs) who would worry about that...
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Magus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 11:21 am
Having been coaxed out from undercover, the stripes become plainly visible...
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blatham
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 11:54 am
Two pairs of hands!? At least!??
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Walter Hinteler
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 12:00 pm
blatham wrote:
Two pairs of hands!? At least!??


One of the embedded evolution correspandants faxed my this pic:

http://www.f8.dion.ne.jp/~lorenz/vielhaendig-a.jpg
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Ethel2
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 12:21 pm
Einhergar wrote:
Quote:
Good, I was starting to worry that half the people in the US might think the world would end in the next decade. In europe that sentiment is almost as widespread as evolution denial. (1% ? Nah, less)


It doesn't matter how many of them there are........and there are more than you may think (I know because I come from the inside of this camp) this self-admitted minority has organized itself to take over this government since 1980 and they are one election away from realizing that goal. You should worry, Einherjar, there in Norway, as should all reasonable Americans, including reasonable Christians.

Quote:
"We need to find ways to win the war" Karl Rove, President Bush's political director told a gathering of the Family Research Council in March, 2002. The Family Research Council is one of the most powerful lobbying organizations of the Religious Right today. Rove wasn't talking about the war on terrorism. He was talking about the war on secular society.



btw, the Family Research Council is the evolved organization from the now, apparently defunct Christian Coalition. On Rove and Reed's advise, the organization of the radical religious right has gone underground.

Try this link, it's all factual. None of it is simply opinion.

http://www.4religious-right.info/

Here are a few excerpts:

Quote:
In March, 1986, I (Joan Bokaer) was on a speaking tour in Iowa and received a copy of the following memo Robertson had distributed to the Iowa Republican County Caucus: "How to Participate in a Political Party"

Rule the world for God.

Give the impression that you are there to work for the party, not push an ideology.

Hide your strength.

Don't flaunt your Christianity.

Christians need to take leadership positions. Party officers control political parties and so it is very important that mature Christians have a majority of leadership positions whenever possible, God willing.

One of their tactics was to tie up the meetings for hours until people left. Then they appointed themselves leaders and made key decisions. Once they took over the local leadership throughout the State of Iowa , they could control the state party apparatus. After their success in the Iowa '88 primary, they used the same tactic in several other states -- precinct by precinct.




Quote:
Christianization of the Republican Party: In Their Own Words
Christianization of the Republican Party, an article from the The Christian Statesman, claims,

"Once dismissed as a small regional movement, Christian conservatives have become a staple of politics nearly everywhere. Christian conservatives now hold a majority of seats in 36% of all Republican Party state committees (or 18 of 50 states), plus large minorities in 81% of the rest, double their strength from a decade before."

"The twin surges of Christians into GOP ranks in the early 1980s and early 1990s have begun to bear fruit, as idealistic recruits have transformed into savvy operatives and leaders, building organizations, winning leadership positions, fighting onto platform committees, and electing many of their own to public office.

The Christian Statesman is a publication of the National Reform Association. Who is the National Reform Association?

"The mission of the National Reform Association is to maintain and promote in our national life the Christian principles of civil government, which include, but are not limited to, the following:

"Jesus Christ is Lord in all aspects of life, including civil government.

"Jesus Christ is, therefore, the Ruler of Nations, and should be explicitly confessed as such in any constitutional documents. The civil ruler is to be a servant of God, he derives his authority from God and he is duty-bound to govern according to the expressed will of God.

"The civil government of our nation, its laws, institutions, and practices must therefore be conformed to the principles of Biblical law as revealed in the Old and New Testaments."


Quote:
Where Did the Media Go? [Expectionally good question.]

Once the Christian Coalition coup had taken place the media seemed to lose interest. The Religious Right had become "old news." Bill Keller, editor of the New York Times, wrote an opinion piece on May on May 17, 2003, giving the impression that, as a political movement, the Religious Right is over-the-hill.

Mr. Keller points out as an example of a declining movement that Falwell and Robertson have "aged into irrelevance." Yes, they are aging, but they've been replaced by most of the Republican leadership of Congress -- Tom DeLay, Jim Inhofe, Rick Santorum, Bill Frist -- and all those Senators and Representatives who received 100% rating from Christian Coalition and other Religious Right groups.

And what about Ralph Reed, the political mastermind of the Christian Coalition? As Chair of the Georgia GOP, he scored a Republican sweep of that state in the 2002 elections. And he has been signed on to work for the Bush '04 presidential campaign.

Mr. Keller's conclusion is: "As an independent political structure the Christian Right is dying." The "Christian Right doesn't need an "independent" political structure. Its political structure is the Republican Party. Their leaders now reside in the U.S. Congress, the White House, the Courts, State Legislatures, and State Boards of Education.




We should all worry ourselves straight to the polling place and vote for John Kerry.
0 Replies
 
kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Wed 20 Oct, 2004 12:39 pm
This thread is both laughable and incredibly scary at the same time.
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