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Mon 28 Nov, 2016 06:05 am
I'm interested in people's view on whether feminism can ever be reconciled with porn. In my view, it can't. Porn is wholly destructive - both in terms of gender relations and wider sexual culture. It degrades and objectifies women and promotes violent, misogynistic sexual identities to men. Furthermore, the damage it does to the developing minds of children is incalculable.
However, porn is increasingly assented to by liberal feminists and the left more broadly. Some even believe 'feminist porn' is possible. I find this both curious and depressing.
I think it was Martin Amis who said (and I paraphrase), 'once women assent to porn then that's it. Game over'. What he meant was that at that point a culture of sexual objectification and utilisation will have ultimately triumphed over the last bastion of female resistance.
There are worrying signs that is happening. I speak to more and more younger women who believe accessible, ubiquitous porn is an acceptable and normal part of modern life. Some subscribe to the (imo) ill-informed and reprehensible idea that women can be empowered, discerning, consumers of porn. They can't.
Porn is nothing less than the industrial objectification and and degradation of women (and to a lesser extent, though no less reprehensibly, of men) by a predatory capitalist industry. It seems odd to me that people who position themselves on the left and usually call for more intervention in capitalist markets leap to the defence of carpet-bagging porn barons - all on the basis that stopping people enjoy their chosen filmed prostitution (for that is what it is) is an infringement of their individual rights.
Dworkin, Dines and others are absolutely right about the absolute, destructive horror that is porn; as are Christian conservatives - even though I believe they're right about absolutely nothing else.
What do people think?
I agree with your position. Porn objectifies.
I disagree. This has nothing to do with feminism. It has everything to do with sexual freedom.
It is a bad thing for society at large to regulate what consenting adults do in the privacy of their bedrooms (with the obvious exception of laws protecting children).
Pornography is a part of normal human sexuality. The word itself has been used since ancient Greece 3000 years ago. and the practice of sexual depictions has been a part of nearly every culture since humans started making drawings on cave walls. I disagree with your assertion that it is "destructive". Depictions of sexuality is part of how human beings have acted for millennia.
Western culture has long tried to regulate and repress sexual expression. I don't think this has ever been a good thing.
Trying to link this to feminism causes obvious logical contradictions... you are telling women what they can or can't do with their own bodies.
And what about women who want to watch pornography themselves, do they have this right? Are you implying that women enjoy sex, or desire sex, any less than men do?
@Leila78,
Quote:Porn is nothing less than the industrial objectification and and degradation of women (and to a lesser extent, though no less reprehensibly, of men) by a predatory capitalist industry
If porn objectifies both men and women, how is it a threat specifically to women?
Yes porn objectifies, but to a certain extent, so does comedy. So does all entertainment. Look at sports. The athletes are reduced to their skill and abilities in the game, and that is the extent of their value to the spectator.
I agree that porn can be harmful to both the participants and the consumer, but with proper regulation and moderation, no more so than other forms of entertainment.
@maxdancona,
Do you think the porn industry should be regulated at all?
@Leila78,
Leila78 wrote:What do people think?
that I disagree with your entire premise
@ehBeth,
I've just checked out your comment history and you seem to position yourself on the political left. Why would you then defend the most brutal, predatory, commodifying free market there is? That's what the right do.
@Leila78,
Leila78 wrote:
Do you think the porn industry should be regulated at all?
Yes, in at least two ways.
1) There should very strong laws against child pornography that are strictly enforced.
2) There should be laws to ensure that all actors and actresses are doing so voluntarily.
The porn industry should also follow the labor laws on any other industry (e.g. they should have the right to unionize and be subject to fair wage laws). Also additional laws to ensure the health of the performers, i.e. testing for sexually transmitted diseases, are reasonable.
@Leila78,
On political compass tests, I historically scale as a left libertarian.
https://www.politicalcompass.org/faq
(pt 17)
@ehBeth,
So what's the difference between a left libertarian and a right libertarian? A right libertarian believes in deregulated markets and consumerist individualism. What does a left libertarian believe that's different?
@Leila78,
see the link above? follow it and look at item 17
(and try the test for yourself, see where you fall)
@ehBeth,
Sorry, but the left, traditionally believe that the state should regulate markets and industries in order to ensure social justice. Why should the porn industry be the one capitalist industry exempt from state interference?
As Dworkin argues:
“Poverty is not wicked or cruel when it is the poverty of dispossessed women who have only themselves to sell; violence by the powerful against the powerless is not wicked or cruel when it is called sex; slavery is not wicked or cruel when it is sexual slavery; torture is not wicked or cruel when the tormented are women, whores…The new pornography is left-wing; and the new pornography is a vast graveyard where the Left has gone to die. The Left cannot have its whores and its politics too.”
@ehBeth,
Chomsky is a libertarian socialist and is staunchly against pornography.
@Leila78,
Leila78 wrote:Sorry, but the left, traditionally believe that the state should regulate markets and industries in order to ensure social justice.
sorry, but, no
____
have you done the test? where did you fall on the compass?
__
Dworkin? seriously? that might have caught my eye in the 1970's but those days are well over
@Leila78,
Quote:“Poverty is not wicked or cruel when it is the poverty of dispossessed women who have only themselves to sell; violence by the powerful against the powerless is not wicked or cruel when it is called sex; slavery is not wicked or cruel when it is sexual slavery; torture is not wicked or cruel when the tormented are women, whores…The new pornography is left-wing; and the new pornography is a vast graveyard where the Left has gone to die. The Left cannot have its whores and its politics too.”
There is an obsession in this quote with sex. Pick any other profession, and see if it works the same.
Any job (nursing, carpentry or engineering) involves a person doing some service in exchange for money. If a carpenter doesn't build things she won't get paid, if a nurse doesn't care for patients, she won't get paid.
This isn't slavery. It is doing a job. How is doing a job that involves sex any different than doing any other job?
http://bleedingheartlibertarians.com/2014/03/7452/
Quote:Because libertarianism is neither a theology nor a system of personal ethics, it often does not have a single position on topics like pornography, the best way to raise your children, or drug use. And this is a strength. Libertarianism does not require rigid adherence to a single personal practice.
ha! you could substitute atheism for libertarianism and I'd like that too
@ehBeth,
I don't care about the test. You are positioning yourself on the left while defending a predatory capitalist industry - deregulated at the point of distribution and production - in the name of individual freedom. Presumably you wouldn't defend Apple or GAP of exploitation; or condemn the state for abolishing the exploitative labour practices they are complicit in? But you defend porn. You defend shady businessman who profit from portraying women as pieces of meat - who call them slags and whores and dirty bitches. You defend the racist porn, the sexist porn, the pseudo-pedophiliac porn, the amateur porn that does not guarantee the age or consent of the people appearing in the videos - but is big dollars for tech-oligarchs people hosting the site.
The new left are just the neoliberal right in disguise.
@Leila78,
You are confusing me Leila.
Why are you attacking Porn, but you aren't attacking Apple and GAP?
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