[Classic] Your Views On Life After Death

There is the unknown and then there's the needlessly speculative. In the past, when humans were new and ignorant on the way to becoming consciously self aware, there were boundless excuses for misreading nature and our place in the scheme of things. The knowledge dredged up in the last couple of centuries removes the need for superstitions and reaching out to external imaginary entities for guidance. We've got it all, without keeping the baggage of centuries old concepts that just don't hold water. An atheist is as moral or immoral as a deist, proving we don't need a supernatural influence of our actions. Evolution, the adaption and change of single cell entities, becoming flora and fauna as we now experience it, is one factor that in itself belies notions of the afterlife. Who would seriously entertain a notion of semi-living matter as living on in an afterlife? And yet we are ancestors of that matter. When did animals, which is what people are, acquire souls and immortality? In the trilobite stage? The first homonid? When first self knowledge occurred? The firs people knew much, but it was largely instinctual. There are those who claim we are still creatures of instinct (see Philip Wylie's explanations involving science in the light of C G Jung's work in An Essay on Morals and Generation of Vipers). When they asked themselves why such and such happened there were no teachers to help them. They had to guess and the guessing frequently involved pain and fear. I think it is time to move beyond the concepts they have instilled in succeeding generations.

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(Next time could you break it into paragraphs?!)

How do you know that the "religion" we have these days isn't another form of supersition? It is still a vague belief of what is beyond us.

Science can't explain where everything came from, it may explain how everything evolve but at the very, very begining.... It's impossible to explain.

Same goes to the almighty God. I mean, I've had this nagging idea at the back of my mind for a while now - what if (let's pretend for a second) God created the world, but he didn't stay? What if he left? That can quite reasonably explain why he "doesn't" care about everything that goes on.

What if God comes from a different world, or universe, or whatever, created us, and went back?

What if in the near future, humans started to create robots that can think of themselves - are we the Gods then? And what if these intelligent robots started to rebel and think for themselves - doesn't that just make you feel we are in a circle of God-Creation-Intelligence-God-Creation and can never break free?

But that's just my crazy ideas. You are welcome to discuss it, though.

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Rosslyn wrote:

edgarblythe wrote:
You are not wrong to admit you don't know, Frank. You are wrong to say I am wrong is all.

Agree, Eb. (Dat's much better) It isn't a matter of right and wrong.... it's just personal opinions, not facts.

Except that Edgar is not offering his opinions as opinions. He is saying quite specifically that there are no gods.

I am saying that I do not know if there are gods or if there are no gods...and I am speculating that he does not know either. And I am asking him to produce the evidence he has for there being no gods.

He has had ample opportunity to state that he is merely offering an opinion that there are no gods. At which point, I would drop this.

But just as the thesists say "There is a God" without offering any reasonable evidence...Edgar is saying "There are no gods" without offering any reasonable evidence.

That is the reason for this discussion.

You will note in Edgars last post...that he offers a variety of reasons for his offering an opinion that there are no gods....but not ONE SINGLE PIECE OF EVIDENCE THAT THERE ARE NO GODS.

EDGAR: Where is the evidence you promised that substantiates your assertion that you know what the REALITY is on this question?

Still not here, I see.

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I painted a picture of how humans invented these notions in the archaic past out of fear and ignorance. The notions of life after death and God came into play very recently in the overall scheme, so obviously invented and based in only speculation. It is a story with no god and no necessity for one. Only the self blinded among us could leave open the possibility of any sorts of gods.

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Still didn't get the point, Frank & Eb! The whole point of OPINIONS is that you don't have to produce evidences. it's what you THINK, not what you know.

So maybe you two shouldn't insist on what you KNOW........ but change that to what you THINK.

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guffaw...you go girl!

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The scenario I laid out at the top of this page blows the notion of gods and afterlife out of the water. Fundamentalists are smart. More progressive thinkers belittle them for their obstinance in ignoring facts. Truth is, they know that their belief has been disproven and are in denial. They want the facts watered down or simply left out of education. The agnostics are in between, saying, "I don't." The ones like Frank play one of the deists' favorite games: Prove the Negative. Which is a mind game, a neat lttle dodge. A little fortitude and a straight mind facing the facts and it's all over. No gods to be disproven, because they are inventions out of the imagination.

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My 2 cents... ( wich i hand out freely :-) )
I dont know anyone who has died and lived to tell about it. Since I have not experienced it first hand Im clueless.
I believe that it is impossible to KNOW for a FACT what happens when you die . Why do I believe that? Because you are still alive...... you have not experienced it. Since you have no first hand experience, you have no knowledge.
( when I say YOU i dont mean any one specific person.. please dont think I am attacking anyone.. im just handing out my change hehe)
Religion, in the western part of the world, tells us that death is permanent and that the only thing we have is life. True, while you are alive that is. And with the idea that death is permanent comes an enormous amount of fear and denial. Religion gives us the idea that WITH religion, there is ' life after death' wich creates a safety-net for people, so to speak . This safety net gives people a false sence of ' control ' over the unknown ie; death.

With that implied level of control, we find security in ourselves because logicaly, with a religion, we ultimatly control what happens to us. Right?
..hmm.. Wrong. In the unknown, there is no control. ( reverse that statement, You cant control what you dont know. )
No matter what religion, society, or even your grandmother says. With a lack of control comes fear and westerners dont like to think of themselves as ' disposable' impermanet or OUT of control.

But , that is my take on things. :-) This is my opinion. Not fact. I own it. I hope I have offended none.
BB

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Yeah, but you don't have to experience death to put two and two together.

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panzade wrote:

guffaw...you go girl!

You are not being sarcastic by any chance, are you Panzade? It sounds like you are enjoying this >_< Why don't you back me (or somebody) up?

Here's the thing.

If you can't prove yourself right, you can say that you are not wrong by others can't prove yourself wrong. But then... think about it.... you're not absolutely right, and you are not absolutely wrong. So what does that equal to? UNKNOWN! OPINIONS! I rrrrrrrrrrrreally don't see a point in arguing.

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edgarblythe wrote:

I painted a picture of how humans invented these notions in the archaic past out of fear and ignorance. The notions of life after death and God came into play very recently in the overall scheme, so obviously invented and based in only speculation. It is a story with no god and no necessity for one. Only the self blinded among us could leave open the possibility of any sorts of gods.

I'm going to jump in here Smile

Splash! Gee, it's fun here where Moses parted the water.

Edgar, if you are right that humans invented the notion of God, are you sure it was out of fear and ignorance? Personally, for me, there is a God...because there just has to be dammit! I wouldn't want to live in a place where the people I love just cease to exist. Where truly good souls like my stepfather just vaporized the moment he died. Is this belief ignorance? I don't think so. It helps me get through the day - yeah, it's my crutch...but if I had a broken leg would using a crutch be ignorant?

Maybe my belief in God is based on fear? I certainly do "fear" the possibility of never seeing my loved ones again and not having a higher being help me through this life. Who wouldn't?

Do I have evidence that there is a God? I have personal evidence (prayers answered that I couldn't explain any other way than to believe God was listening, personal peace, being able to get up in the morning). That's where faith comes in. Faith doesn't have much scientific backup..that's true. It doesn't need to.

Dictionary.com first two definitions of faith are:

1. Confident belief in the truth, value, or trustworthiness of a person, idea, or thing.
2. Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidence.

I don't know if there is a God or not. Nobody really knows. But some of us have faith that there is. It's kind of a personal decision based not on ignorance or fear. It's based on survival.

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Speaking of expereience death..... some people have near-death experiences or being dead for a minute or so. Even them can't explain it. I think... maybe it's just like you're going to sleep and.... that's it.

I mean, it is a crazy thought but how do you know, every time you go 2 bed, how do you know you are going to wake up the next morning? How do you know you won't cease to existance in the middle of the night?

It's disturbing. Shan't say no more.

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My momma used to say that if your party is quiet, bring up religion. that starts a debate in under 5 seconds. ;-) BOY was she right. hehehe

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I just saw my first Vivid loop and I want to audition for director.

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Much of the fear and ignorance I speak of came from the distant past, though there is still some in many places today. We are instilled with these thoughts from early childhood. It's hard to break free for many of us, and I don't even recommend that for quite a few religious persons I know. Speaking in general terms, I stand by my presentation. I just make exceptions for certain saint-like persons.

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ahh.. im only taking actors.
prove yourself
and you can be a director.
HAHAHAHHAH

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I agree with edgar. People speculate out of fear. As i said in my post, fear of the unknown brings about lack of control. One of the survival instincts we have instilled in us IS control. We have learned along time ago that we can control things. with OUT that control we seek alternative means to HAVE control.

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I've said pretty much all that I started out to say and, barring a bobshell from somebody (Frank, for instance) will now bow out. Thank you to all who have followed the thread. It was a civilized discussion and well worth the time.

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edgarblythe wrote:

I painted a picture of how humans invented these notions in the archaic past out of fear and ignorance. The notions of life after death and God came into play very recently in the overall scheme, so obviously invented and based in only speculation. It is a story with no god and no necessity for one. Only the self blinded among us could leave open the possibility of any sorts of gods.

In other words...you are guessing.

But that's what I've been saying.

Why are you denying it?

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edgarblythe wrote:

The scenario I laid out at the top of this page blows the notion of gods and afterlife out of the water. Fundamentalists are smart. More progressive thinkers belittle them for their obstinance in ignoring facts. Truth is, they know that their belief has been disproven and are in denial. They want the facts watered down or simply left out of education. The agnostics are in between, saying, "I don't." The ones like Frank play one of the deists' favorite games: Prove the Negative. Which is a mind game, a neat lttle dodge. A little fortitude and a straight mind facing the facts and it's all over. No gods to be disproven, because they are inventions out of the imagination.

No one is asking you to prove a negative.

I am asking for the evidence upon which you base your claim to KNOW what the REALITY of existence is.

Fact is...it is apparent you do not know...and are just guessing. But it seems beyond your ability to acknowledge that.

I wonder why?

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[Classic] Your Views On Life After Death

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