192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:08 pm
@MontereyJack,
Progressives dislike reality, but no. The truth is not a fantasy.

Progressives lynched Amy Cooper for calling the police when a black man was menacing her in the park.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -2  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:10 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
that is wholly totally malevolent fantasy.

Progressives dislike reality, but no. It's not a fantasy.

BLM goons are all about allowing black people to rape and murder white people with impunity.
MontereyJack
 
  1  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:18 pm
@oralloy,
yokur rehetoric is escalating and it's getting more and more to sound like a stone cold racist segregationist and lynching enthusiast from 1920.
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:19 pm
@MontereyJack,
The only racist here is you. Saying that it is wrong to rape and murder white people is not racist. White lives matter.

There has been no change in my rhetoric. I merely tell the truth, and the truth is the same today as it was a week ago.
MontereyJack
 
  0  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:20 pm
@oralloy,
totally absurd.
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:21 pm
@MontereyJack,
Not absurd at all. Raping and murdering white people is wrong. White lives matter.
MontereyJack
 
  0  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:23 pm
@oralloy,
I'm going to sleep.. Rant on to yourself. Pitiful.
oralloy
 
  0  
Sun 20 Sep, 2020 11:24 pm
@MontereyJack,
Saying that it is wrong to rape and murder white people is hardly ranting.

How would you feel if you or someone you cared about was attacked by one of these BLM goons?
0 Replies
 
coluber2001
 
  1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 12:12 am
ANNE APPLEBAUM
https://i0.wp.com/immigrationcourtside.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/ACD76479-C027-410B-82D7-D7F30A524EA5.jpeg?w=360&ssl=1

THE ATLANTIC: “History Will Judge the Complicit: Why have Republican leaders abandoned their principles in support of an immoral and dangerous president?”

In February, many members of the Republican Party leadership, Republican senators, and people inside the administration used various versions of these rationales to justify their opposition to impeachment. All of them had seen the evidence that Trump had stepped over the line in his dealings with the president of Ukraine. All of them knew that he had tried to use American foreign-policy tools, including military funding, to force a foreign leader into investigating a domestic political opponent. Yet Republican senators, led by Mitch McConnell, never took the charges seriously. They mocked the Democratic House leaders who had presented the charges. They decided against hearing evidence. With the single exception of Romney, they voted in favor of ending the investigation. They did not use the opportunity to rid the country of a president whose operative value system—built around corruption, nascent authoritarianism, self-regard, and his family’s business interests—runs counter to everything that most of them claim to believe in.

Just a month later, in March, the consequences of that decision became suddenly clear. After the U.S. and the world were plunged into crisis by a coronavirus that had no cure, the damage done by the president’s self-focused, self-dealing narcissism—his one true “ideology”—was finally visible. He led a federal response to the virus that was historically chaotic. The disappearance of the federal government was not a carefully planned transfer of power to the states, as some tried to claim, or a thoughtful decision to use the talents of private companies. This was the inevitable result of a three-year assault on professionalism, loyalty, competence, and patriotism. Tens of thousands of people have died, and the economy has been ruined.

This utter disaster was avoidable. If the Senate had removed the president by impeachment a month earlier; if the Cabinet had invoked the Twenty-Fifth Amendment as soon as Trump’s unfitness became clear; if the anonymous and off-the-record officials who knew of Trump’s incompetence had jointly warned the public; if they had not, instead, been so concerned about maintaining their proximity to power; if senators had not been scared of their donors; if Pence, Pompeo, and Barr had not believed that God had chosen them to play special roles in this “biblical moment”—if any of these things had gone differently, then thousands of deaths and a historic economic collapse might have been avoided.

The price of collaboration in America has already turned out to be extraordinarily high. And yet, the movement down the slippery slope continues, just as it did in so many occupied countries in the past. First Trump’s enablers accepted lies about the inauguration; now they accept terrible tragedy and the loss of American leadership in the world. Worse could follow. Come November, will they tolerate—even abet—an assault on the electoral system: open efforts to prevent postal voting, to shut polling stations, to scare people away from voting? Will they countenance violence, as the president’s social-media fans incite demonstrators to launch physical attacks on state and city officials?

Each violation of our Constitution and our civic peace gets absorbed, rationalized, and accepted by people who once upon a time knew better. If, following what is almost certain to be one of the ugliest elections in American history, Trump wins a second term, these people may well accept even worse. Unless, of course, they decide not to.

When I visited Marianne Birthler, she didn’t think it was interesting to talk about collaboration in East Germany, because everybody collaborated in East Germany. So I asked her about dissidence instead: When all of your friends, all of your teachers, and all of your employers are firmly behind the system, how do you find the courage to oppose it? In her answer, Birthler resisted the use of the word courage; just as people can adapt to corruption or immorality, she told me, they can slowly learn to object as well. The choice to become a dissident can easily be the result of “a number of small decisions that you take”—to absent yourself from the May Day parade, for example, or not to sing the words of the party hymn. And then, one day, you find yourself irrevocably on the other side. Often, this process involves role models. You see people whom you admire, and you want to be like them. It can even be “selfish.” “You want to do something for yourself,” Birthler said, “to respect yourself.”

For some people, the struggle is made easier by their upbringing. Marko Martin’s parents hated the East German regime, and so did he. His father was a conscientious objector, and so was he. As far back as the Weimar Republic, his great-grandparents had been part of the “anarcho-syndicalist” anti-Communist left; he had access to their books. In the 1980s, he refused to join the Free German Youth, the Communist youth organization, and as a result he could not go to university. He instead embarked on a vocational course, to train to be an electrician (after refusing to become a butcher). In his electrician-training classes, one of the other students pulled him aside and warned him, subtly, that the Stasi was collecting information on him: “It’s not necessary that you tell me all the things you have in mind.” He was eventually allowed to emigrate, in May 1989, just a few months before the fall of the Berlin Wall.

In America we also have our Marianne Birthlers, our Marko Martins: people whose families taught them respect for the Constitution, who have faith in the rule of law, who believe in the importance of disinterested public service, who have values and role models from outside the world of the Trump administration. Over the past year, many such people have found the courage to stand up for what they believe. A few have been thrust into the limelight. Fiona Hill—an immigrant success story and a true believer in the American Constitution—was not afraid to testify at the House’s impeachment hearings, nor was she afraid to speak out against Republicans who were promulgating a false story of Ukrainian interference in the 2016 election. “This is a fictional narrative that has been perpetrated and propagated by the Russian security services themselves,” she said in her congressional testimony. “The unfortunate truth is that Russia was the foreign power that systematically attacked our democratic institutions in 2016.”

Lieutenant Colonel Alexander Vindman—another immigrant success story and another true believer in the American Constitution—also found the courage, first to report on the president’s improper telephone call with his Ukrainian counterpart, which Vindman had heard as a member of the National Security Council, and then to speak publicly about it. In his testimony, he made explicit reference to the values of the American political system, so different from those in the place where he was born. “In Russia,” he said, “offering public testimony involving the president would surely cost me my life.” But as “an American citizen and public servant … I can live free of fear for mine and my family’s safety.” A few days after the Senate impeachment vote, Vindman was physically escorted out of the White House by representatives of a vengeful president who did not appreciate Vindman’s hymn to American patriotism—although retired Marine Corps General John Kelly, the president’s former chief of staff, apparently did. Vindman’s behavior, Kelly said in a speech a few days later, was “exactly what we teach them to do from cradle to grave. He went and told his boss what he just heard.”

[Read: John Kelly finally lets loose on Trump]

But both Hill and Vindman had some important advantages. Neither had to answer to voters, or to donors. Neither had prominent status in the Republican Party. What would it take, by contrast, for Pence or Pompeo to conclude that the president bears responsibility for a catastrophic health and economic crisis? What would it take for Republican senators to admit to themselves that Trump’s loyalty cult is destroying the country they claim to love? What would it take for their aides and subordinates to come to the same conclusion, to resign, and to campaign against the president? What would it take, in other words, for someone like Lindsey Graham to behave like Wolfgang Leonhard?

If, as Stanley Hoffmann wrote, the honest historian would have to speak of “collaborationisms,” because the phenomenon comes in so many variations, the same is true of dissidence, which should probably be described as “dissidences.” People can suddenly change their minds because of spontaneous intellectual revelations like the one Wolfgang Leonhard had when walking into his fancy nomenklatura dining room, with its white tablecloths and three-course meals. They can also be persuaded by outside events: rapid political changes, for example. Awareness that the regime had lost its legitimacy is part of what made Harald Jaeger, an obscure and until that moment completely loyal East German border guard, decide on the night of November 9, 1989, to lift the gates and let his fellow citizens walk through the Berlin Wall—a decision that led, over the next days and months, to the end of East Germany itself. Jaeger’s decision was not planned; it was a spontaneous response to the fearlessness of the crowd. “Their will was so great,” he said years later, of those demanding to cross into West Berlin, “there was no other alternative than to open the border.”

But these things are all intertwined, and not easy to disentangle. The personal, the political, the intellectual, and the historical combine differently within every human brain, and the outcomes can be unpredictable. Leonhard’s “sudden” revelation may have been building for years, perhaps since his mother’s arrest. Jaeger was moved by the grandeur of the historical moment on that night in November, but he also had more petty concerns: He was annoyed at his boss, who had not given him clear instructions about what to do.

Could some similar combination of the petty and the political ever convince Lindsey Graham that he has helped lead his country down a blind alley? Perhaps a personal experience could move him, a prod from someone who represents his former value system—an old Air Force buddy, say, whose life has been damaged by Trump’s reckless behavior, or a friend from his hometown. Perhaps it requires a mass political event: When the voters begin to turn, maybe Graham will turn with them, arguing, as Jaeger did, that “their will was so great … there was no other alternative.” At some point, after all, the calculus of conformism will begin to shift. It will become awkward and uncomfortable to continue supporting “Trump First,” especially as Americans suffer from the worst recession in living memory and die from the coronavirus in numbers higher than in much of the rest of the world.

Or perhaps the only antidote is time. In due course, historians will write the story of our era and draw lessons from it, just as we write the history of the 1930s, or of the 1940s. The Miłoszes and the Hoffmanns of the future will make their judgments with the clarity of hindsight. They will see, more clearly than we can, the path that led the U.S. into a historic loss of international influence, into economic catastrophe, into political chaos of a kind we haven’t experienced since the years leading up to the Civil War. Then maybe Graham—along with Pence, Pompeo, McConnell, and a whole host of lesser figures—will understand what he has enabled.

In the meantime, I leave anyone who has the bad luck to be in public life at this moment with a final thought from Władysław Bartoszewski, who was a member of the wartime Polish underground, a prisoner of both the Nazis and the Stalinists, and then, finally, the foreign minister in two Polish democratic governments. Late in his life—he lived to be 93—he summed up the philosophy that had guided him through all of these tumultuous political changes. It was not idealism that drove him, or big ideas, he said. It was this: Warto być przyzwoitym—“Just try to be decent.” Whether you were decent—that’s what will be remembered.

This article appears in the July/August 2020 print edition with the headline “The Collaborators.”

***************************

Read Applebaum’s entire, much longer article at the link. Part of it is a fascinating study of how and why, despite backgrounds pointing in exactly the opposite directions, Lindsey Graham abandoned principle and became one of Trump’s “chief collaborators,” while Mitt Romney stood up against Trump and his GOP collaborators in the Senate.

These days, the GOP doesn’t produce many folks with intellectual honesty and capacity for self-examination. Indeed, those exhibiting anything suggesting those qualities might be lurking in their souls are shunned or railroaded out of the party (see, e.g., Jeff Flake). So, I wouldn’t hold my breath for any of Trump’s toadies to actually own up to or take responsibility for their “crimes against humanity.”

And “decency,” well, that’s been absent from GOP politicos for some time now. Kids in cages. Taking away the legal and constitutional rights of asylum seekers. Sending abused women refugees back to be tortured by their abusers. Attacking California’s meager payments to our undocumented fellow humans, many performing essential services at risk to their health. Turning Immigration Courts into Star Chambers. Using false narratives to incite hate attacks on African Americans, Hispanic Americans, Asian Americans, and American Journalists. Failing to speak out forcefully against anti-semitic White Nationalist thugs. Looking the other way or even encouraging Trump to mistreat those courageous civil servants who dare speak truth to his lies. “Orbiting” vulnerable asylum seekers back to squalid danger zones. Denying detained kids toothbrushes.The list of indecent acts could go on almost forever.

But, fortunately, as Applebaum suggests, that won’t save these GOP collaborators from the judgments of history. Unfortunately, however, historical vindication won’t save the lives of those victims who have died at the collaborators’ hands, nor will it undo the scars that some will bear for life as the result of the “crimes against humanity” committed by Trump and his GOP cronies. And, that’s the indelible shame of a nation that let Trump and the GOP wield their toxic political power in the first place.

coldjoint
 
  1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 12:21 am
@coluber2001,
THE ATLANTIC: “History Will Judge the Complicit: Why have Republican leaders abandoned their principles in support of an immoral and dangerous president?”

The "Atlantic" after what they just pulled. You have to be kidding. Intellectual moralizing and abject dribble. It won't change one mind. It will just increase the vicarious thrill of the nitwits who think they are going to save the world from freedom by destroying this country.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 12:46 am
@coluber2001,
Quote:
History Will Judge the Complicit


History doesn't have the ability to convict and sentence, though, or the whole Obama admin would be doing time right about now.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 01:11 am
@coluber2001,
The Atlantic wrote:
History Will Judge the Complicit: Why have Republican leaders abandoned their principles in support of an immoral and dangerous president?

The Republicans have not abandoned any principles, and Mr. Trump is neither immoral nor dangerous.


coluber2001 wrote:
These days, the GOP doesn't produce many folks with intellectual honesty and capacity for self-examination. Indeed, those exhibiting anything suggesting those qualities might be lurking in their souls are shunned or railroaded out of the party (see, e.g., Jeff Flake). So, I wouldn't hold my breath for any of Trump's toadies to actually own up to or take responsibility for their "crimes against humanity."

This tendency of the left to equate "agrees with me" with morality and "disagrees with me" with immorality is pretty goofy.

The Republicans have not committed any crimes against humanity.


coluber2001 wrote:
Kids in cages.

Barack Obama was the one who put kids in cages.


coluber2001 wrote:
But, fortunately, as Applebaum suggests, that won't save these GOP collaborators from the judgments of history.

They have nothing to worry about.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 03:03 am
@Builder,
Builder wrote:
Quote:
History Will Judge the Complicit
History doesn't have the ability to convict and sentence
And time doesn't have the ability to speak → "time will tell".

But perhaps David Hume really was totally wrong when he wrote about "history will judge" as the general point of historical moral judgement.

hightor
 
  3  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 04:36 am
@oralloy,
Quote:

Barack Obama was the one who put kids in cages

Were they separated from their parents, as the Trump administration has done? I thought the facilities were used to hold unaccompanied minors for 72 hrs prior to their being moved into foster homes.

Frank Apisa
 
  -2  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 06:03 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

snood wrote:


Sometimes (not all the time, mind you😁),

But sometimes when I find myself feeling offended at something said, I have to acknowledge that part of my hurt feelings have to do simply with the fact that what was said was true, and the truth hurt.


Now granted, it’s much, much more comfortable and preferable if I can attribute an interpretation to whatever was said that leaves me untouched. Like “they are just jealous of me”, or “that person said that because they are stupid or crazy”.


But sometimes, it’s just like the old country saying goes, “A hit dog will yelp”.





So what you are saying is that when I told you "You are full of ****"...you realized I had told the truth...and that struck a nerve.

Okay. I get that.



Nope. Not what I was saying at all. And you know that but you’re continuing in your puerile attempts at provocation, which, also, is understandable. For you to acknowledge that you’ve already admitted having your feelings hurt by being called a hypocrite - that would take some self reflection on your part. But I’m sure you’re doing the best you can.



You started a petty argument...I've handed you your ass...and now you are trying to claim a victory of some sort. You sound like Trump claiming his response to the cononavirus pandemic was exemplary.

You are full of ****, Snood, and you seem to be all out of sorts that I mentioned it.

Tough.

But, credit when credit is due: You do entertain me. I couldn't wait for the game to be over so I could see what kind of response you would have for me to deal with in response.

Very disappointing.

Request, if I may: Please up your game. What you are offering makes me feel like a bully.


Whatever. Now try real hard to concentrate. Leave aside preening and patting yourself on the back for how you’re supposedly destroying me in this discussion and answer this question if you can, hypocrite.

You say that anyone supporting Trump is as disgusting as Trump, and that most of your friends are “American Conservatives”. So are most of your friends as disgusting as Trump?



You may get off on calling me a hypocrite...and I can live with that. I have more respect for my friends who are American Conservatives...than I do for you, because you are petty as wallpaper.

Really, Snood...go beat your meat. It tenderizes it. You may, if you try real hard, find a moment of contentment in life before you leave it. I know it will be hard for someone like you, but even though I see you as an exemplar of someone totally full of ****, I would love to see you have a few minutes of serenity at some point. It would be terrible if you died without ever having even a moment without all the disgruntlement and gloominess that seem constantly to permeate your being.

Yeah, I find you to be disgusting, but I do want to see you have a reasonably happy life.

Gosh, I do find it strange that you would find THAT strange.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/eyZbRceXTNWhiTjeIxk-Xzj4qt56uv9GFU2TwdG_r9xDSsPA1lU7_cuDeWc6D2qnUqDRS9FThfE-0uHcekXnJWnWiJqmPRSUKiRqTxDBYg
snood
 
  -1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 07:12 am
@Frank Apisa,
So, all Trump supporters except your friends are disgusting? Just trying to get some coherence out of you... What you say makes no sense. Unless, of course you’re just a mealy-mouthed hypocritical liar.
snood
 
  -1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 07:16 am
Does anybody know what happened to Sarah Conner and all her wonderful Trump parodies? She was posting them every week - now nothing.
Frank Apisa
 
  -1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 07:17 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

So, all Trump supporters except your friends are disgusting? Just trying to get some coherence out of you... What you say makes no sense. Unless, of course you’re just a mealy-mouthed hypocritical liar.


Poor, poor you, Snood.

There, there!


https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/eyZbRceXTNWhiTjeIxk-Xzj4qt56uv9GFU2TwdG_r9xDSsPA1lU7_cuDeWc6D2qnUqDRS9FThfE-0uHcekXnJWnWiJqmPRSUKiRqTxDBYg
Region Philbis
 
  0  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 08:02 am
@snood,
Quote:
Does anybody know what happened to Sarah Conner and all her wonderful Trump parodies? She was posting them every week - now nothing.
not sure who you are referring to... posting them every week where?


meanwhile, enjoy Colbert...

snood
 
  1  
Mon 21 Sep, 2020 08:19 am
@Region Philbis,
Tiktok, youtube, FB...

Love Colbert...
0 Replies
 
 

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