192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
blatham
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:06 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Ask yourself, how would Americans have reacted if a foreign power had assassinated Dick Cheney, claiming that he had the blood of hundreds of thousands of Iraqis on his hands? Don’t answer that Suleimani was worse. That’s beside the point. The point is that we don’t accept the right of foreign governments to kill our officials.

And now riding to the rescue...American exceptionalism! The God-given super power that permits America to do anything at all to others and yet at the same time disallowing other nations to do the same to it!
blatham
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:10 am
@revelette3,
Quote:
I didn't look at it as Trump being concerned for ambassadors, but just an affront or insult to him personally by Iraqis protesting against him.
Could be, though I think more likely a perceived need to not be identified with Benghazi (which would have electoral consequences)
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:14 am
@blatham,
Probably a combination of all of the mentioned. Plus we have those Iran hard liners in the administration.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:20 am
@revelette3,
Quote:
Clearly [Haley] is looking for a future presidential run when Trump is out of office. She is young enough to not feel in a hurry.
She's ambitious and so her behavior is future-conscious. Nothing wrong with that, of itself. But the point is that the specific behavior she's engaging in is deeply immoral. It's like the difference between an ambitious League of Women Voters member versus an ambitious Mafia hitman.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:28 am
@blatham,
The same arguments we used back when we had an empire. The American one will fare no better in the ME than we did.
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:28 am
@blatham,
Well, she has always been very partisan and a war hawk, she just came off as a woman with common sense more than Trump and I would be surprised if she approves of targeting foreign cultural sites during war time as a tactical war strategy. I doubt anyone brought it at Fox, even the so called liberal host. Did they?
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:30 am
@izzythepush,
A former republican advisor and a consultant now on MSNBC called it the ME sinkhole. Considering Trump himself campaigned on ending such, he sure messed up with this latest action to put the kindest outlook on it.
hightor
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:35 am
@blatham,
Can anyone point to one or two instances of Democratic leadership or Democratic presidential candidates mourning the loss of Soleimani?

I guess if you're stupid enough to use a noun as an adjective you can just go ahead and misuse any other word. Especially when your non-critical audience has been groomed to applaud everything you say.
izzythepush
 
  3  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 09:37 am
@revelette3,
It damaged the reputation of Gladstone enormously, overnight he went from GOM (Grand Old Man,) to MOG (murderer of Gordon.)

Memories are very long over there, they still talk about the crusades as if they were recent events and America will be seen as part of that tradition.

I did mention this on another thread that we still don't know how the Jihadis are going to react. Groups like IS and Al Qaida are Sunni Muslims like the Saudis. They've been fighting the Shia Muslim militias backed by Iran.

Will it go on as before or will Trump succeed in uniting Shia militias and Sunni Jihadis against the Americans?

I don't know, but it could well be the granddaddy of all shitstorms.
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  3  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:06 am
BBC piece on the legality of Soleimani's murder.

Quote:
US President Donald Trump ordered the drone strike that killed Iranian military commander Qasem Soleimani in Iraq but what are the legal grounds for this course of action?

The US said: "This strike was aimed at deterring future Iranian attack plans."

So, what are the key issues when considering its legality, according to international law?

What does the law say?
The relevant law in the UN Charter allows for a state to act in self-defence "if an armed attack occurs".

But this definition tends to be interpreted by governments, say legal experts.

"In the Soleimani case, the US is claiming it acted in self-defence to prevent imminent attacks, a category of action which, if in fact true, is generally seen as being permissible under the UN Charter," says Dapo Akande, professor of public international law at Oxford University and co-director of the Oxford Institute for Ethics, Law and Armed Conflict (ELAC).

But Agnes Callamard, UN special rapporteur on extra-judicial killings. has tweeted about the strike saying "this test is unlikely to be met".

The test for so-called anticipatory self-defence is very narrow: it must be a necessity that is “instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation”. This test is unlikely to be met in these particular cases. (Tweeted by Agnes Callamard)

A 2010 UN report on "targeted killings" said there was a weighty body of scholarship that viewed the self-defence argument as having the right to use force "against a real and imminent threat when the necessity of that self-defence is instant, overwhelming, and leaving no choice of means, and no moment of deliberation."

The initial US Department of Defense statement omitted the word "imminent" and said the strike was aimed at deterring future Iranian attacks and that Iran's top military leader Soleimani was "actively developing plans to attack American diplomats and service members in Iraq and throughout the region".

In later statements, US officials including President Trump said Soleimani had been plotting "imminent attacks".

Elizabeth Warren, a Democratic Party candidate for the US presidency, said: "The administration cannot keep its story straight."

The legality of the strike under international law may well depend on the US providing evidence of those future attacks, according to Mr Akande.

The US government has not yet shared details publicly, but the administration has said intelligence has been shared with key figures in the US Congress.

There are other justifications it has used in the past, according to Dr Ralph Wilde, an expert in public international law at University College London.

"Since 9/11 the US has taken a view that self-defence can be justified to prevent more longer-term attacks. When the attack is being planned, but is not imminent. The Obama administration used this argument to justify drone strikes."

The other issue is whether the US had consent from Iraq to carry out the strike there.

Iraqi MPs reacted angrily and passed a non-binding resolution calling for US troops to leave the country. The Iraqi government has called it a "brazen violation of Iraq's sovereignty".

US forces had been invited into Iraq to fight the Islamic State group and to train Iraqi forces.

The US might argue this invitation constituted some form of consent, giving them a right to protect their interests and personnel inside Iraq.

But Mr Akande argues that, in practice, the terms of the agreement to host US forces would not stretch to carrying out an attack like this.

On Sunday, Mr Trump tweeted, warning the US would target sites that were "important to Iran and the Iranian culture" if American assets were hit.

The Iran Foreign Minister, Javad Zarif said an attack on a cultural site would amount to a war crime.

Trump's threat "shows callous disregard for the global rule of law", said Andrea Prasow of Human Rights Watch.

The US government insisted it would behave lawfully.

But an attack on a cultural site would violate several international treaties.

The 1954 Hague Convention for the Protection of Cultural Property safeguarded cultural sites in the wake of the destruction of cultural heritage sites during World War Two, and was signed by the US.

In 2017, the UN passed a resolution in response to the Islamic State attacks which condemned "the unlawful destruction of cultural heritage, including the destruction of religious sites and artefacts".

The US was among the harshest critics of the IS destruction of historic site of Palmyra in Syria in 2015, as well as the Taliban's demolition of the Bamiyan Buddhas in Afghanistan in 2001.

In 2016, the International Criminal Court (ICC) convicted someone for the destruction of cultural heritage for the first time, after an extremist linked to Al-Qaeda destroyed religious artefacts in Mali.

The US is not part of the ICC but it is a signatory of other agreements to protect cultural property and any attack would represent a significant reversal.


https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-51007961?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world/middle_east&link_location=live-reporting-story
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:16 am
@izzythepush,
I hate to say this, I will seem as if I approve of such sentiments, but I doubt it will matter to Trump and/or his supporters, defenders what legal (foreign or domestic) think of the action. All that will matter to them is how it play out in the American voters eyes will be all that matter in the end to them. If matters play out where this is seen by a majority of Americans as a justifiable action, then, the rest won't matter a tad little bit to them. IMO It's why Haley knows she can away with framing as a democrat/republican issue rather than a war in middle east issue which is not popular.

I think the above described attitude is why we are beginning to (maybe already are) hated by friends and foes alike in the rest of the world.
izzythepush
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:23 am
@revelette3,
Who is this all for? If it's about America's need for oil that's covered with shale gas.

This is about protecting the business interests of rich oil people like the Saudi Crown Prince and the Bushes.
0 Replies
 
snood
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:26 am
An idea I find tantalizing: Pelosi should definitely delay giving the impeachment articles to the Senate until at least after the SOTU speech.

If that’s still looming over Trumpo’s head while he’s at that podium, I think we might see him at his most unhinged. Delicious.
0 Replies
 
farmerman
 
  3  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:26 am
@revelette3,
I think Trump , in his Capt Queeg moments, has envisioned himself greater than Obama in the "Situation Room" when he oordered the hit on Osama bin Laden.
Course Trump wasnt anywhere "near" a situation room with all the staff in place. He was at Mar Alago golfing no doubt.

I really hope that Trump has NOT oepened a huge can of worms. Noone here has any idea of whats in store and whether we can avoid any damage. I see that Saudi Arabia has sent an envoy to DC to request a great del of restraint.

Lets see whether Trump can handle this without further busting up any other " International Rules of Engagement"
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:39 am
@farmerman,
He was at Mar-a-Lago (what does even mean?).

Quote:
Hours before the U.S. military sent a Reaper drone to kill one of the most wanted men on the planet, President Donald Trump was relaxing at his palatial Florida properties. In the morning, he played 18 holes at Trump International, his West Palm Beach golf club.


https://www.politico.com/news/2020/01/03/donald-trump-iran-soleimani-093371

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:56 am
@izzythepush,
Quote:
The same arguments we used back when we had an empire. The American one will fare no better in the ME than we did.
I have a wonderful book here - "America Right or Wrong" by Anatol Lieven - which provides quote after quote from British and other imperial powers that, as you say, are quite identical to things written and spoken by American voices in justification of empire and acts of empire.
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 10:56 am
'We're going to war, bro': Fort Bragg's 82nd Airborne deploys to the Middle East

0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 11:02 am
@revelette3,
Quote:
I would be surprised if she approves of targeting foreign cultural sites during war time as a tactical war strategy. I doubt anyone brought it at Fox, even the so called liberal host. Did they?


Just one example from MM
Quote:
Fox host says he supports America committing war crimes: “I don't care about Iranian cultural sites”
Hegseth: “They would destroy every single one of our cultural sites and build a mosque on top of it”

The single most common mistake we make is imagining there's some bottom past which these people won't go.

McGentrix
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 11:04 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

I need to make an apology to you. Regarding the cadets who made the hand gesture, your take on it was correct and mine not.


What a thing to wake up to!
0 Replies
 
revelette3
 
  2  
Tue 7 Jan, 2020 11:06 am
@blatham,
Surely as a former Ambassador to the UN and governor, she would not advocate committing war crimes, out loud? Did they ask her about it? I would be very interested in her response to such a question after her partisan statements she made in the interview we are discussing.

Well, got to drag myself away, time to check in with my heart doctor. Always fun. After the holidays, probably get a lecture on gaining weight.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Obama '08? - Discussion by sozobe
Let's get rid of the Electoral College - Discussion by Robert Gentel
McCain's VP: - Discussion by Cycloptichorn
Food Stamp Turkeys - Discussion by H2O MAN
The 2008 Democrat Convention - Discussion by Lash
McCain is blowing his election chances. - Discussion by McGentrix
Snowdon is a dummy - Discussion by cicerone imposter
TEA PARTY TO AMERICA: NOW WHAT?! - Discussion by farmerman
 
Copyright © 2024 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 1.01 seconds on 11/26/2024 at 08:24:24