192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:33 am
@glitterbag,
The methods and procedures to which you refer are meant to keep children free of the risks associated with the confinement their parents brought on themselves by violating our laws. These methods were used in precisely the same circumstances by the previous administration, and others before it. You appear to ignore that. Moreover these same procedures are widely used under other circumstances involving children stranded by parents who violate other laws. That you fail to note even these obvious contradictions in your rather pseudo pious personal denunciation of a political figure whom you happen to oppose tells us far more about you than him
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:35 am
@glitterbag,
glitterbag wrote:
Ceausescu


a good friend whose family came here from Romania after a brief stay in Israel has been talking and posting at great length how familiar she finds what is going on in the US these days. she's finding it pretty disturbing that people she thought were so smart can be so blind about what is happening in their country.
georgeob1
 
  0  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:50 am
@ehBeth,
What does the Canadian government do in the case of the minor children of parents who are jailed for crimes they have committed?
firefly
 
  1  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 11:53 am
@glitterbag,
https://cdn.newsday.com/polopoly_fs/1.19239705.1529098425!/httpImage/image.jpg
layman
 
  0  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 01:25 pm
Everyday people are arrested, booked, charged, given court dates for trial, etc. And probably 95% of those cases never go to trial. Often a guilty plea is taken in return for a sentence to "time served' or probation in relatively minor cases.

Trump and Sessions don't really want to have take care of these unwelcome intruders in a jail cell for months on end. They do, however want to get control of the border and do not want to encourage more illegal entry.

The "solution" cheese-eaters think should be taken is to let anyone who comes in with a kid just walk on by with a notice to appear months later. This never worked. I think only about 20% of those given such notices ever showed up and the rest just "disappeared" into some sanctuary city.

Illegal immigrants have, in many cases, a "right" to a hearing, but they are not obligated to assert it. Many deportations are consensual. I suspect that's all Sessions really wants--an agreement to get out of the country without a court hearing. Then they can go home and tell their discouraging story to their fellow citizens.

For years they never came back to tell any story. Instead they sent mail and money home telling everybody how easy it was to just wade into the USA and how unwilling Americans were to do much about it.

These illegal aliens, and their kids, have the keys to their cell in their own pocket. All they need to do is take themselves and their kids back home. If they stay locked up, and separated from their kids, it's because they want to.
0 Replies
 
firefly
 
  2  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 01:53 pm
Message at the border: ‘No vacancy’
by Editorial Board-- June 16

FOLLOW THE rules. That’s what people fleeing violence or persecution in their home countries and seeking asylum in the United States are being told by the Trump administration under its zero-tolerance immigration policy. Don’t cross the border anywhere other than at official ports of entry. If you do, your bid for asylum won’t be heard, you will be criminally prosecuted and, if you have children, they will be taken from you. But the real message being sent, judging by troubling reports of asylum seekers being turned away at legal border crossings, is that the administration has undertaken a drastic escalation of its efforts to limit immigration and discourage asylum seekers. No measure, it seems, is too extreme.

Getting the most attention, as it should, has been the separation of families that has resulted from the administration’s policy of prosecuting everyone (including asylum seekers) who crosses into the United States illegally. Previously, most illegal crossers were paroled while awaiting court proceedings, which allowed families to remain together. Hundreds of children have been taken from their parents, and the accounts of suffering have been heart-rending: toddlers crying themselves to sleep; mothers being falsely told their babies were being taken away only to be bathed; a father killing himself in a detention cell after his child was taken from him.

There also have been reports of U.S. Customs and Border Protection officers turning back asylum seekers, mostly from Central America, who try to present themselves, as is their legal right, at El Paso and other legal crossings on the Mexican border. “I wanted to do everything legally, to ask for asylum in the proper way, but this is a setback I did not expect for us,” Justo Solval, a 25-year-old laborer who traveled with his 21-month-old son from Guatemala, told the New York Times of having to camp out for more than a week on the streets of Nogales.

Asylum seekers are not being told that they can’t apply for asylum, just that they have to wait because the port of entry is at capacity and unable to process claims. It’s “the immigration equivalent,” Robert Moore wrote in The Post, “of a ‘no vacancy’ light over the Rio Grande.” Advocates for asylum seekers are skeptical of those claims, pointing to a lack of data to back them up. We will take the agency at its word about stretched resources and the multiple missions of Customs and Border Protection. But that raises the critical question of why the administration implemented such a drastic policy change affecting asylum seekers — requiring them to present themselves only at official entry points — with so little regard for the consequences. Why, for example, aren’t there plans to set up temporary processing facilities, as was done during a surge in asylum requests during the Obama administration?

The answer is obvious. Just as the Trump administration doesn’t think twice about trampling on American values by separating children from parents, it doesn’t mind turning its back on the country’s proud tradition of offering harbor to the persecuted.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/message-at-the-border-no-vacancy/2018/06/16/1c1719de-70d9-11e8-bd50-b80389a4e569_story.html?utm_term=.f56209a1f6b6
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coldjoint
 
  -4  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 03:08 pm
@firefly,
What is that parent doing out of jail? If the parents are freed so are their children.
0 Replies
 
coldjoint
 
  -4  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 03:12 pm
@firefly,
Quote:
That’s what people fleeing violence or persecution in their home countries

That is bullshit, they are coming for a better life, which can be done legally. Or the welfare life. Plus they are being coached by useful idiots to say "asylum". Starting off with a lie makes the rest of the post whining and virtue signaling crap.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 03:15 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

glitterbag wrote:
Ceausescu


a good friend whose family came here from Romania after a brief stay in Israel has been talking and posting at great length how familiar she finds what is going on in the US these days. she's finding it pretty disturbing that people she thought were so smart can be so blind about what is happening in their country.


I was on an assignment for the State Department in 1988 in Bucharest, Romania. It was a freaking nightmare, barely any electricity and even then the power fluctuated so radically you couldn't rely on it. But that wasn't what made it a nightmare, to me seeing Securitate, with automatic weapons slung over their shoulders casually intimidating people on the street and watching the public immediately become so deferential it was unsettling.

I was so relieved when my plane left Romanian airspace, it's hard to explain. While I was there I was blown away by the constant reminder of the power of the State and the realization that I could disappear and no now would know what happened. This is back in the day when everyone knew what the Iron Curtain was all about.

But as George has so wisely observed, bad things have happened under other administrations, henceforth no one has any authority to ever criticize any administration.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 04:03 pm
@coldjoint,
coldjoint says:
Quote:
That is bullshit, they are coming for a better life, which can be done legally. Or the welfare life. Plus they are being coached by useful idiots to say "asylum". Starting off with a lie makes the rest of the post whining and virtue signaling cra


Youi clearly haven't BEEN PAYING ANY ATTENTION TO WHAT HAS BEEN HAPPENING IN THE REST OF THE aMERICAS OR IN THE mIDDLE eAST FOR THE LAST THIRTY YEARS. tHAT'S WHY PEOPLE ARE BEGGING ASYLUM FRO US, THEIR LAST HOKPE. aND tRUMP IS SLAMMING THE DOOR ON THEIR HANDS. Goddamned caps lock key is too close to the a.
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gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 05:47 pm
Good if everybody understands the history of Mexico and the US. Media idiots make it sound as if we took California and the US SW from Mexico. The real truth is that Mexico and Spain NEVER HAD those places. Mexicans were never able to prevail against the Apaches and Comanches and had no land routes out of Northern Mexico; Comanches in particular held Northern Mexico and much of Texas in a reign of terror throughout the 18th and much of the 19th centuries.

The first thing which ever gave ANYBODY any sort of a military edge against the Comanches was the Colt revolver, a US invention. So that with a 300 year head start at doing anything with California, all Spain or Mexico had to show for that head start by the middle 1800s was a few missions which had to be supplied by ships. If Mexicans had ever done anything with California, Anglos would not have been able to just walk into the place in the 1840s.

https://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&keywords=the+empire+of+the+summer+moon&tag=googhydr-20&index=stripbooks&hvadid=241632246158&hvpos=1t1&hvnetw=g&hvrand=3970962477164709157&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=e&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9027924&hvtargid=kwd-19637856927&ref=pd_sl_5aqtiqdc4g_e
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -1  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 05:53 pm
Another thought: On the day that the US civil war ended, the US was 50 years ahead of Europe. The first two years of WW-1 were fought with tactics which no US commander would have ever used after Gettysburg.

In particular, at that time, the US could have simply seized Mexico; nobody in Europe would have been able to jack **** about it. Ask yourself why that didn't happen.

The answer is simple, US leaders didn't want the place. They'd just fought a civil war over slavery and the idea of trying to swallow a place whose entire society was based on a master/serf model and whose economy was based on the idea of 100 families owning everything and everybody else owning nothing, simply did not appeal to them.
0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  4  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 05:58 pm
@layman,
Quote:
You have any citation for this "real case" you're talking about?


You're never so good with the links yourself, but sure: https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-forced-labor-constitutes-material-support-board-immigration-appeals-finds
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 05:58 pm
And now we get these Mexicans talking about "reconquista" and "laRaza" and jumping up and down in California yelling "undocumented, unafraid" and flying Mexican flags as if Mexico had ever had the place.

What it reminds me of really, is how much fun it used to be watching Roberto Duran stomp Mexicans. Example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sL3rZDB9R4Y



0 Replies
 
nimh
 
  5  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 06:11 pm
I don't even care whether you want to emphasize the origins of these policies under Obama or their sudden, vast escalation under Trump - there is no excuse for this:

Quote:
Inside an old warehouse in South Texas, hundreds of children wait away from their parents in a series of cages created by metal fencing. One cage had 20 children inside. Scattered about are bottles of water, bags of chips and large foil sheets intended to serve as blankets. [...]

The U.S. Border Patrol on Sunday allowed reporters to briefly visit the facility where it holds families arrested at the southern U.S. border, responding to new criticism and protests over the Trump administration’s “zero tolerance” policy and resulting separation of families. [...]

Reporters were not allowed by agents to interview any of the detainees or take photos.

Nearly 2,000 children have been taken from their parents since Attorney General Jeff Sessions announced the policy, which directs Homeland Security officials to refer all cases of illegal entry into the United States for prosecution. [...] Stories have spread of children being torn from their parents’ arms, and parents not being able to find where their kids have gone.


One 16-year-old girl recounted that she had been taking care for a young child she didn’t know for three days:

Quote:
She said she had to show others in her cell how to change the girl’s diaper. [...] The teen and others in their cage thought the girl was 2 years old. [...]

Brane said that after an attorney started to ask questions, agents found the girl’s aunt and reunited the two. It turned out that the girl was actually 4 years old. Part of the problem was that she didn’t speak Spanish, but K’iche, a language indigenous to Guatemala.

“She was so traumatized that she wasn’t talking,” Brane said. “She was just curled up in a little ball.”

Brane said she also saw officials at the facility scold a group of 5-year-olds for playing around in their cage, telling them to settle down. There are no toys or books.

But one boy nearby wasn’t playing with the rest. According to Brane, he was quiet, clutching a piece of paper that was a photocopy of his mother’s ID card.

“The government is literally taking kids away from their parents and leaving them in inappropriate conditions,” Brane said. “If a parent left a child in a cage with no supervision with other 5-year-olds, they’d be held accountable.”
nimh
 
  6  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 06:27 pm
@georgeob1,
georgeob1 wrote:

What does the Canadian government do in the case of the minor children of parents who are jailed for crimes they have committed?

Isn't unlawfully entering the country merely a misdemeanour, or is this outdated: https://blogs.findlaw.com/blotter/2014/07/is-illegal-immigration-a-crime-improper-entry-v-unlawful-presence.html ?

I don't know about Canada, I'm definitely no lawyer, and who knows, maybe the world is an even shittier place than I imagine -- but I can't imagine there are a whole lot of Western countries that will, let's see, jail the parents and put their 6-year old children in cages while awaiting to be sent to detainment centers or foster parents whose location the parents are often not informed about, over a misdemeanour offense.
layman
 
  -3  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 06:33 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

Quote:
You have any citation for this "real case" you're talking about?


You're never so good with the links yourself, but sure: https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-forced-labor-constitutes-material-support-board-immigration-appeals-finds


Well, I don't personally agree with this decision, but it appears to be based on long-established precedent and involves highly technical standards for statutory construction. The court did NOT say that the woman wasn't "morally" entitled to protection, but didn't believe that the statute gave her legal entitlement.

Also, I understood you to say that they denied her application for refugee status on the grounds that she would be subjected to torture. You are wrong about that:

Quote:
Our review of the Immigration Judge’s decision reflects that she has not provided sufficient fact-finding and analysis regarding the respondent’s request for protection under the Convention Against Torture. We cannot meaningfully address the DHS’s arguments absent sufficient legal analysis by the Immigration Judge or adequate factual findings, which we are without authority to make in the first instance....

Under these circumstances, we conclude that a remand is necessary for the Immigration Judge to provide factual and legal analyses for her decision. Upon remand, the Immigration Judge may conduct further proceedings, as appropriate, and give the parties an opportunity to supplement the record with additional relevant evidence and argument.


As you noted, this whole case, other than this appeal, was prosecuted under the Obama administration and the woman lost there too.

Another interesting facet is that the woman initially granted protected status in 1991 , but then left the country and came back years later (in 2004) seeking re-admission.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Sun 17 Jun, 2018 06:45 pm
@nimh,
nimh wrote:

I don't even care whether you want to emphasize the origins of these policies under Obama or their sudden, vast escalation under Trump - there is no excuse for this:


Any particular reason why you just give part of the story while quoting general statements about OTHERS, in other places,who had been "taken from their parents?"

Quote:
More than 1,100 people were inside the large, dark facility that’s divided into separate wings for unaccompanied children, adults on their own, and mothers and fathers with children. The cages in each wing open out into common areas to use portable restrooms. The Border Patrol said close to 200 people inside the facility were minors unaccompanied by a parent. Another 500 were “family units,” parents and children.


Kids who follow adults into the country by "tagging along" are not being "taken from their parents."

When these people deliberately come en masse, in a "caravan" we have to do the best we can, on a makeshift basis, temporarily.

Quote:
Under U.S. law, children are required to be turned over within three days to shelters funded by the Department of Health and Human Services.
0 Replies
 
 

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