@engineer,
I missed your response, I didn't mean to ignore it. It's sometimes tough to keep up with this thread.
You wrote:Since when do we question a strangers professed faith? None of us personally know the former President...
First of all, you failed to include in your quote of my comment the part where I wrote
I don't care whether or not he is a Christian, any more than I cared whether or not he was born in America. Perhaps I needed to reiterate several comments I've made over the years about his origins:
I never cared whether or not he was born in America. I think the provision requiring a president to be a native-born citizen is outdated and of no value. Having been born in Kenya or Indonesia would not have made him a better president in my view and it would have been a silly way to deprive him of his clear election victory if it could have been proven. The only importance his birthplace could have to me would center on his honesty, which is the only importance the nature his faith has.
Secondly, it's silly to refer to him as a
stranger. I know more about him (in part due to his own autobiographical books) than I do the
vast majority of my fellow Americans. He
wanted me to know about his life: His origins, his parents, his grandparents, his schooling, his athletics, many of his likes and dislikes, most of his opinions on everything from policy to movies,
and his faith.
I can't see any reason at all to question a stranger's faith, but as I think I just made clear, Obama is not a
stranger to me or anyone else in America and most of the world.
As for questioning the faith of someone I know, I think it's important to define "questioning." I do "question" Obama's faith but I make no judgment of the import of his lack thereof. If I am correct and he doesn't believe in God (let alone Jesus Christ) it's of no import to me and not even in respect to the fact that it would mean he has "lied" about it. I also think he "lied" when he initially said he firmly believes marriage is between a man and a woman, and I know he lied when he said I could keep my doctor. Everyone lies and politicians lie more so than anybody else...in this Obama is no exception. As a result, the fact that he may have lied is, in and of itself, of no import. I don't expect anyone to tell "the truth" 100% of the time. Context and intent
are of import. Lying about his views on same-sex unions or his faith would have been committed to assist him in getting elected. Every candidate does this and if I have to disqualify Obama or any other Democrat for doing so, I have to disqualify every Republican candidate.
Now lying about faith or views on same-sex marriage may be of importance to some or even many, but it's not to me. Lying about a very important aspect of a significant domestic policy (Obamacare) so as to deceptively assuage concerns of voters is of a lot of importance to me and I think it speaks very poorly of Obama the president and Obama, the man.
Regardless, if he did lie about being a Christian, it's not important to me because believing in God is not required for my vote or support. I know a great many people who are fine, upstanding and deeply moral people who don't believe in God. An atheist can be a great president and a devout Christian can be a terrible one.
You wrote:You might disagree with a fellow Christian's opinions or policies, that will likely happen on any given Sunday in any church around the country, but denying someone's faith, bringing false witness against them, for political reasons is about as un-Christian as you can get. I can't recall another politician subjected to this by mainline evangelical leaders.
It certainly seems to me that you are, once again, someone who didn't really bother to read what I wrote but made assumptions and then launched your swift boat.
I wrote this
Quote:I find it problematic when anyone's faith is questioned because of politics
I also wrote
Quote:I suppose Ms. Sullivan feels she is fighting fire with fire by questioning the faith of self-identified Christians who support Trump or even vote Republican.
And you are doing the same thing as her. You are bemoaning the questioning of Obama's faith and turning around and questioning Trump's.
You wrote:If you are a Christian looking for good in Trump, it's hard when not only is there no repentance, but there are ongoing lies, doubling down on lies and denial.
But I'm not, are you, and if you are why are you ignoring your own admonition about questioning someone's faith?
Neither you nor anyone else knows what goes on in Trump's mind when he is alone with God (assuming he actually believes in and prays to God). I don't, but I do know that he would not be the first sinner to act in public as if he is unrepentant or in denial of his sins, but in private, is begging for forgiveness from God.
I'm not God, I'm not a Christian, and Trump is not someone I personally care for. Whether or not he is seeking forgiveness from God for lying is immaterial to me. The point I was making in the comment you quoted is that no one can tell from outward appearances what someone believes about God, their personal sins, and their desire for forgiveness.
I wrote:...it is more than possible for a man who says all the right words and, by all indications, has been a faithful husband, to not actually believe the fundamental tenets of a religion he has adopted in public for political reasons
Keep in mind I was responding to Sullivan's piece and the importance she placed in the religious sentiments verbally expressed by Obama. She seems to think that they were enough to prove his faith. That's nonsense.
You wrote:Of course it was. You should be honest enough to admit that.
Of course, it was not and I'll admit no such thing. I would though tell you to shove something up your ass for your arrogant insult, but I won't, because you've simply allowed your partisan passion to override your intelligence.
Writing that it is more than possible that someone (and you can even read "Trump" here if you like) can be ignorant of religious dogma and clearly a sinner can also be a true Christian in the sense that he believes in God, that Jesus Christ died for his sins, and that he seeks forgiveness of his sins, is not arguing that Trump is a
true Christian. Surely you are not so dense as to not see this? I can't read Trump's mind and have no way of knowing what his thoughts are about God and his sins.
Similarly, writing that someone (And, again, read "Obama" if you'd like) who is able to recite the Bible chapter and verse and remains faithful to his wife doesn't prove that he is a
true Christian in the sense that I described above. Again, it's hard to believe you don't understand this. Maybe you have zero understanding of Christianity. Faithfulness to one's spouse and knowledge of dogma doesn't make one a
Christian.
There is also nothing in what I posted that a reasonable person without a political ax to grind can interpret as my arguing that someone who fits the definition of a
True Christian is perforce in possession of greater moral character than someone who is not. If you think there is point it out.
I could be wrong but I seem to recall posts of yours that indicate you are either atheist or agnostic. If so it would seem you have an incongruent, and somewhat romantic notion of what a
True Christian is. I'm not a Christian but I believe in God and yet I don't think the term means anything more than what I outlined. Even if one believes that total adherence to the teachings of Christ renders a state of moral perfection, no one has or ever will achieve that state. By the definition you seem to be using, Jesus was and is the only
True Christian that earth will ever see.
If you are a Christian, then you need to re-evaluate your thinking on what a
True Christian is, unless you believe a man or woman on earth can somehow achieve a perfect state of grace and, in essence, become Christ. If you do think that, I find it fascinating and would love to hear more of your thoughts. In the meantime, I'll accept a simple apology for your insulting pomposity.