192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
hightor
 
  5  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:08 am
@layman,
Quote:
Originally we were told that 17 intelligence agencies believed we were hacked by Russians. It turned out to be a very few people in a few agencies.

This is inaccurate and if he's that careless with the facts it makes me doubt anything else he has to say on the matter.
Quote:

President Donald Trump, speaking in Poland July 6, downplayed the strength of the intelligence community’s conclusion that Russia meddled in the election to his benefit.

He justified his doubt by noting that the New York Times and the Associated Press recently corrected stories to clarify that four agencies, rather than 17, were directly involved in the January intelligence assessment about Russia’s interference in the election.

"I heard it was 17 agencies. I said, boy, that’s a lot. Do we even have that many intelligence agencies? Right, let’s check that," Trump told NBC’s Hallie Jackson. "We did some heavy research. It turned out to be three or four. It wasn’t 17. ... I agree, I think it was Russia, but I think it was probably other people and/or countries, and I see nothing wrong with that statement. Nobody really knows. Nobody really knows for sure."

It’s valid for Trump to criticize news organizations for not being specific enough in their reports (more on that in a bit). But this does not invalidate the report by the CIA, FBI, NSA and Director of National Intelligence, nor their "high confidence" in their judgment that Russia engaged in an influence campaign directed at the election.
Relevance over quantity

Trump asked if the federal government really does have 17 intelligence organizations. Yes, it does.

They are as follows: Air Force Intelligence, Army Intelligence, Central Intelligence Agency, Coast Guard Intelligence, Defense Intelligence Agency, Energy Department, Homeland Security Department, State Department, Treasury Department, Drug Enforcement Administration, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Marine Corps Intelligence, National Geospatial Intelligence Agency, National Reconnaissance Office, National Security Agency, Navy Intelligence and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence.

Some of these are large, independent agencies, like the FBI, CIA and NSA. Others are smaller offices within agencies whose main focus is not intelligence, like the State Department’s Bureau of Intelligence and Research or the Treasury’s Office of Intelligence and Analysis.

Four out of the 17 were involved in the January assessment about Russia: CIA, FBI, NSA and the Office of the Director of National Intelligence, which is an umbrella agency that oversees all 17 organizations.

This doesn’t mean the remaining 13 intelligence organizations disagree with the January assessment, nor does it mean the report was insufficient, according to multiple national security experts.

The 17 organizations differ on their missions and scope, so they wouldn’t all be expected to contribute to every intelligence assessment, including one of this import.

"What matters is the agencies that (were involved) and whether, based on their mandate and collection responsibilities, those are the agencies best positioned to make the assessment," said Carrie Cordero, counsel at law firm ZwillGen and former counsel for various federal agencies focusing on national security.

For example, the intelligence arms of the Drug Enforcement Agency or the Coast Guard would not be expected to collect intelligence related to Russian interference in an election, said Steven Aftergood, director of the Project on Government Secrecy at the Federation of American Scientists.

"So their endorsement or non-endorsement basically means nothing in this case," Aftergood said, adding, "In this context, the assessments that count the most are those of CIA, NSA, FBI and ODNI."

The intelligence community likely limited the Russia assessment to those four agencies because they have the most to contribute on this topic, and because they wanted to contain the highly sensitive intelligence as much as possible, said Paul Pillar, senior fellow at Georgetown University’s Center for Security Studies who served in the intelligence community for 28 years.

"The ones that participated are the ones you’d expect on this," Pillar said. "It’s hard to see any of the others having something to contribute."

"That does not vitiate the conclusions. It does not mean the jury is still out," he added.

source

Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:13 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

A do think that Cohen has a very close relation to Russia ... and share many of his views.
That should read "I do think ..."
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  6  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:14 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
Republican tax cut bill opens up oil drilling in the Arctic National Wildlife Refuge:
http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/365022-time-running-out-for-opponents-of-arctic-drilling

Just the tip of the (melting) iceberg:
60 Environmental Rules on the Way Out Under Trump
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -3  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:16 am
@hightor,
As I recall, Clapper, or Brennan, or one of those agency heads testified before congress that a "select" congregation of agents was established to look into this matter. I.e, a very few agents, hand-picked, as with Mueller's operation.

And even their report clearly and explicitly acknowledged that their conclusions were NOT established facts.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:33 am
More on Prof. Cohen — from 2014:

The Nation’s Stephen F. Cohen Denies Existence of Ukraine

Putin's Pal

from 2015:

Has "The Nation" Turned into a Putin Propaganda Forum?

from 2017:

He lost the Munk Debate in Toronto where he and Vladimer Posner defended the pro side: Be it resolved the West should engage not isolate Russia…

It's amusing the way rightwingers like to identify Cohen as being a "leftist" — after smearing them as unpatriotic communist sympathizers for most of the previous century. But this one, he tells the truth.
layman
 
  0  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:41 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

More on Prof. Cohen — from 2014:


The Nation’s Stephen F. Cohen Denies Existence of Ukraine

Putin's Pal

from 2015:

Has "The Nation" Turned into a Putin Propaganda Forum?

It's amusing the way rightwingers like to identify Cohen as being a "leftist" — after smearing them as unpatriotic communist sympathizers for most of the previous century. But this one, he tells the truth.



Thank you for being so kind as to immediately and completely prove Cohen's point--which is basically that there is no discussion or debate--just McCarthy-like denouncement.

hightor
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 06:51 am
@layman,
Quote:
Thank you for being so kind as to immediately and completely prove Cohen's point--which is basically that there is no discussion or debate...

You're welcome. But it's questionable how much of a debate can actually occur when Cohen makes statements which fail to comport with reality.
Quote:
--just McCarthy-like denouncement.

"Denunciation" is a better word. And there's nothing "McCarthy-like" about it. McCarthy was accusing people in the US government of being Soviet spies. Cohen is accused of being an apologist for Putin, who is a nationalist. No charges of espionage. The funny thing is Cohen's (or is it layman's) knee jerk appeal to leftist sentiment — "ooohhh, McCarthyism...evil...bad" — so transparent!
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  0  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:03 am
@layman,
Quote:
But it's questionable how much of a debate can actually occur when Cohen makes statements which fail to comport with reality.


This particular video is an extended discussion of russia/western relations. This guy strikes me as intelligent, well-informed, and calm, not manic.

I neither know nor care a lot about many of these issues, but I have no problem listening to what he has to say.

Typically, you want to portray yourself as the ultimate arbiter of all truth and fact, and I seriously doubt that you have, or would be willing to, listen(ed) to his comments.
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:03 am
Trump's 'Impossible' Plan for a 350-Ship Navy Is Sinking Fast
Quote:
The scheme is "more than unrealistic,” one Congressional shipbuilding expert told me on condition of anonymity, as they were not authorized to speak to the press. “It would be impossible."

source
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:23 am
@layman,
layman wrote:

Quote:
But it's questionable how much of a debate can actually occur when Cohen makes statements which fail to comport with reality.


This particular video is an extended discussion of russia/western relations. This guy strikes me as intelligent, well-informed, and calm, not manic.

I neither know nor care a lot about many of these issues, but I have no problem listening to what he has to say.

Typically, you want to portray yourself as the ultimate arbiter of all truth and fact, and I seriously doubt that you have, or would be willing to, listen(ed) to his comments.


I meant to add that, on the basis of the information I have available, this guy probably knows 1000 times more about the "reality" of the situation than you do, notwithstanding your claim to superior knowledge.
hightor
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:35 am
@layman,
Quote:
I meant to add that, on the basis of the information I have available, this guy probably knows 1000 times more about the "reality" of the situation than you do, notwithstanding your claim to superior knowledge.


Yeah, you're probably right. Although while I don't claim "superior knowledge" (and I don't know why you say that I made that claim), I do know that Ukraine is an actual nation and knew so at the time of the Russian invasion. But yes, Prof. Cohen is very knowledgeable. He's also worth over seven billion dollars!
Walter Hinteler
 
  3  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:40 am
@hightor,
He is a great historian of Stalinism.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:55 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

I do know that Ukraine is an actual nation and knew so at the time of the Russian invasion.


What you do know (well) is how to eat up any simplistic and fallacious straw man argument you come across as being dispositive of, and foreclosing any possibility of debate about, any position which caters to your confirmation bias.

Cohen said this in the article you quote:

Quote:
—Fallacy No. 2: There exists a nation called “Ukraine” and a “Ukrainian people” who yearn to escape centuries of Russian influence and to join the West.

Fact: As every informed person knows, Ukraine is a country long divided by ethnic, linguistic, religious, cultural, economic and political differences—particularly its western and eastern regions, but not only. When the current crisis began in 2013, Ukraine had one state, but it was not a single people or a united nation. Some of these divisions were made worse after 1991 by corrupt elite, but most of them had developed over centuries.


Cohen does NOT say there is no country which calls itself "Ukraine."

The "brilliant" journalist who you endorse says this in reply:

Quote:
There, in fact, a nation called “Ukraine”? Yes, there is. You can look it up. It’s right there on the U.N. member state list, between Uganda and United Arab Emirates.

And that really ought to settle the question.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:56 am
@hightor,
Quote:
Trump's 'Impossible' Plan for a 350-Ship Navy Is Sinking Fast

I'd like to know why they think that our new stealth bombers won't be able to penetrate the defenses of a peer rival, and why they think escort fighters would remedy that problem (if it truly exists).

http://thediplomat.com/2016/09/a-raider-and-his-little-buddy-which-fighter-will-accompany-the-usafs-b-21/
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 07:59 am
@thack45,
Quote:
One of the top executives of a consulting firm that the Environmental Protection Agency has recently hired to help it with media affairs has spent the past year investigating agency employees who have been critical of the Trump administration, federal records show.
Isn't that just splendid. But it makes sense as even a corporatocracy, when it has achieved dominance politically, will be certain it needs its police and intel on domestic threats.
0 Replies
 
Walter Hinteler
 
  4  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 08:06 am
@layman,
You really should read THE AMERICAN WHO DARED MAKE PUTIN’S CASE ...
blatham
 
  3  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 08:07 am
@farmerman,
The story is that he doesn't do drugs. Of course, it might be his story and not the truth. But if he was a typical NY City rich, partying coke-head, many others would know about it.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 08:16 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:

You really should read THE AMERICAN WHO DARED MAKE PUTIN’S CASE ...



Thanks for the link, Walt. I'm in the process of reading it now. As I said, I don't know much about Cohen or care much about some of the issues involved. One of the first quotes of Cohen in this article is this:

Quote:
In his article “Distorting Russia,” Cohen wrote that American “demonization” of Putin in news coverage amounts to “toxic” “media malpractice” that verges on the alarmist language of the Cold War.


Even given my limited knowledge (which includes listening to his hour or so long talk which I posted)I think he has already made a strong case for this claim.
Walter Hinteler
 
  5  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 08:21 am
@layman,
layman wrote:
I'm in the process of reading it now.
And afterwards, if you didn't find out the inconsistencies yourself Meet Stephen F. Cohen, Vladimir Putin's Best Friend in the American Media
revelette1
 
  3  
Sat 16 Dec, 2017 08:57 am
Millions Post Comments on Federal Regulations. Many Are Fake. (Wall Street Journal)
 

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