193
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Lash
 
  0  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 09:28 am
@blatham,
Nah. I’m just a non-repentant Bernie! ✌🏻
blatham
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 09:54 am
@Olivier5,
Quote:
Codifying sex too much may lead to the death of erotism.
Yes, definitely. We each make a journey of learning in our sexual lives and that often (or always?) entails pushing our boundaries and experimentation. Over the years, one can move from, "I'll never do that!" to, "Oh, let's do that again!"

And then there's legal codification within culture. It is still illegal in 18 states to engage in oral sex. It seems there will always be some perceived necessity within cultures to police people's sexual activity and choices.

And sexual partner A will be different in needs and tastes from sexual partner B who's different from partner C, etc. So it's all pretty complicated and there's no easy way through this. But the situation as it has been for women is morally unacceptable. We know that, at least.
blatham
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:04 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Pompeo is another far right GOP Tea Party dork heavily supported by the Kochs. He's a GW denier who fights to reduce/remove subsidies for clean, renewable energy. This guy is just one more Koch aligned person now with serious influence over US policy and politics. Is America fucked? Damned good chance.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:18 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:
So it's all pretty complicated and there's no easy way through this.


it's not all that complicated if people talk to each other

I'll admit that the first time someone asked if he could kiss me (1978 or 79) I was a bit startled - then I realized he was smart. That was a good relationship, based on very clear communications.

__

Leonard Cohen ... bah on anything that man said about relationships.
BillW
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:18 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Pompeo is another far right GOP Tea Party dork heavily supported by the Kochs. He's a GW denier who fights to reduce/remove subsidies for clean, renewable energy. This guy is just one more Koch aligned person now with serious influence over US policy and politics. Is America fucked? Damned good chance.


This isn't tRumpian, it is where the Right Wing sits. In fact, the only thing thr RW finds wrong with tRump is that he verbalizes/tweets their abhorrent positions.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:20 am
@BillW,
BillW wrote:
This isn't tRumpian, it is where the Right Wing sits. In fact, the only thing thr RW finds wrong with tRump is that he verbalizes/tweets their abhorrent positions.


I'm definitely not seeing that. They're supporting those tweets and are proud of how he is representing him. His core is truly his core. I may not respect their beliefs but I don't doubt that they hold them deep deep down.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:22 am
@blatham,
White House readies plan to replace Tillerson with Pompeo, install Cotton at CIA
Quote:
Under the plan, Pompeo would likely be replaced at the CIA by Sen. Tom Cotton (R-Ark.), one of Trump's most steadfast defenders and a confidant to some leading members of the foreign policy team, according to the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because the White House has not publicly announced the moves. White House spokesmen did not immediately comment.
BillW
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:24 am
@ehBeth,
I am not talking about the people, I am referring to all the Republican politicians. The standby his positions but don't want him to divulge their true repugnant ideology. The south would love to return to slavery, the north just want to enrich their wealthiest and return to the royalty. The populace are just ignorant goats.
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:39 am
@Lash,
A bit over the top, Lash. Do you pen bodice-rippers on the side?

Look, if you want to see it as a predatory move on Keillor's part you can. Many will. I don't know the guy personally but I've never gotten the impression that he's one of those testosterone-driven creeps like Weinstein or Lauer. I can envision a scenario which is much less incriminating. There's a certain style of blouse worn by women which is not tucked into a waistband but allowed to flow freely. And if someone reaches to put a hand on the middle of her back — people do actually engage in non-erotic physical contact when they wish to console or encourage a friend or colleague — it could easily and unintentionally end up touching bare skin. Oh my god, the horror! Lock him up! Or maybe he really did grope her — I don't know and neither do you.

Now sometimes there is no ambiguity at all and the contact is obviously purposeful. I suggested to Finn that a swift kick in the knee (or more realistically, the verbal equivalent) would be a proper response. I realize that in most societies women are not expected to react in that manner. Well, that has to change. Not that girls should be taught how to box but that they should be taught that they don't have to put up with crap like unwanted attention from leering males. It hasn't escaped my notice that our culture actively promotes the idea that girls are supposed to be sexy and attract the male gaze. Just look at the sorts of styles marketed to teens. A walk down a city street in warm weather makes it abundantly apparent. Girls are actually taught that this has something to do with self-esteem. And boys learn that a response of the basest sort ratifies their own self-esteem. Just look at the movies. These are unwritten but pervasive cultural attitudes, loosely derived from the biology of the sexes. The civilizing process can help us overcome raw animal-like behavior but only if both sides uphold their end of the bargain.

I don't know if what we are currently experiencing will actually lead to a cultural shift. But if the stories in the news encourage women to respond quickly to unwanted advances, in no uncertain terms, they will have done their part in helping to break these bad cultural habits.

As for the men, the guys in the news stories have suffered from the exposure but I'm not sure how this will trickle down to the street level. Rich powerful pigs are more easily busted — as they are in the public eye — but ordinary guys, full of resentment and feeling powerless, will probably still continue to cat-call women and behave like assholes. These jerks feel it's some sort of prerogative that enhances their masculinity. Short of prescribing medroxyprogesterone acetate to the male population I see no easy answer. But strong self-actualized females are definitely part of the solution.
Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 10:50 am
@blatham,
Quote:
the situation as it has been for women is morally unacceptable. We know that, at least.

What's morally unacceptable IMO is coercion, pressures, rape of course, and sexual harrasment. But any and all physical contact should not be considered a problem IMO.

I'm particularly keen on protecting "stollen kisses" (non solicitated kisses) from prosecution, having been on the receiving end myself every now and then, generally for the best... But i fear they could be on their way out.

Olivier5
 
  1  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 11:27 am
@Olivier5,
Lyrics from the above:

[...] Toi qui a mis  --- [...] To you who put
Sur ma langue ta langue amie  --- Your friendly tongue on mine
Et dans mon cœur un décalcomanie  --- And in my heart a decalcomania
Marqué: "Liberté, Liberté Chérie"  --- Engraved "Freedom, Beloved Freedom"
Je donne des parts  --- I'd give all the shares
Pour ce moment, délicieux hasard,  --- For this moment, delicious hazard,
Oh ! Tous les milliards de dollars…. --- Oh, all the billions of dollars…
[…] Si tout est moyen  --- […] If everything is so-so
Si la vie est un film de rien  --- If life is but a boring movie
Ce passage-là était vraiment bien --- At least that part felt really good
Ce passage-là était bien  --- That part felt good
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 11:44 am
@hightor,
It’s sad for women that you have such a limited understanding of this issue, but you’re still talking.

Why do you think Meredith Vieira didn’t respond defensively when Lauer told her to keep bending over like that, cause what he saw looked good.

You might say that was harmless. It’s not. Most women are at work with their career in their minds. They have to choose to smile at demeaning **** like unwanted touches from powerful men at work or suffer losing a job and possibly being blackballed from the career they love.

You obviously don’t have a clue what it’s like to be a woman in a man’s world.

“Just kick him in the knee.”

Thank god you are here with the solution.

ehBeth
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 11:52 am
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
I realize that in most societies women are not expected to react in that manner.


not expected?

people are warned, threatened, punished, fired, black-balled etc etc ... for objecting to unwanted sexual touching /advances/ comments by more powerful people. even commenting on it can get you the stink-eye or worse
hightor
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:34 pm
@Lash,
Quote:
Why do you think Meredith Vieira didn’t respond defensively when Lauer told her to keep bending over like that, cause what he saw looked good.

I suspect cultural conditioning had something to do with the behavior of both of them. But if every woman felt empowered enough to put a creep in his place guys like Lauer and Weinstein might wise up. As it is, they know there's a line of applicants waiting outside the door.
Quote:
You might say that was harmless.

But I didn't.
Quote:
Most women are at work with their career in their minds.

Yes, I'm aware of that. Although you will find the occasional woman — or man — who will walk off a job rather than continue a demeaning pantomime. Tippi Hedren for one:
Quote:
“I was stunned and alarmed by his actions,” she recalled. “In the end, he made unqualified demands of me that I could not assent to. He said things like, ‘I want you to be available to me at any time, whenever I choose.’

“I don’t care about being an actress if this is what it involves,” Hedren says. Hitchcock never used her in another film, and refused all requests to loan her out for other movies while she was under contract, derailing her then-promising career.

source
Quote:
You obviously don’t have a clue what it’s like to be a woman in a man’s world.

Just because I don't see the situation exactly the way you do doesn't mean that I'm totally clueless. I've listened to many women who have shared these stories with me, including the one I'm married to. I get the feeling that you're not responding to what I said but to what you want to believe I've said. Because that's a lot easier.
Quote:
“Just kick him in the knee.”

Or the verbal equivalent. As long as women smile demurely the men involved will have no reason to cease their behavior. I know that's a bind. I know it's not easy. But nothing about this problem is easy. It exists all through society on so many levels. There aren't enough prisons to hold all the guilty men. The current situation, where more women come forward, is potentially an improvement but it comes with problems of its own. This is a problem that's been with us for thousands of years, now exacerbated by culture as well as biology.
Quote:
Thank god you are here with the solution.

Well what's your "solution"? There's the Lysistrata response but you know there will always be certain women who'll be willing to play the man's game. I suppose big companies could have HR departments deal with this sort of thing — but don't they do that already? Women might be encouraged to gather evidence about a specific individual's actions which would help to escape the "he said she said" trap but so much of this **** goes on at so many levels and every woman isn't going to recording every single action every time.

So I ask you again, what do you think we can do about it? Do you really believe we'll live to see it come to an end?
hightor
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:38 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
not expected?

Right, not expected. I've known some tough women who managed to deal with harassment successfully. But these were little companies in small towns where reputation in the community also played a hand.

Quote:
people are warned, threatened, punished, fired, black-balled etc etc ... for objecting to unwanted sexual touching /advances/ comments by more powerful people. even commenting on it can get you the stink-eye or worse

Which is why there must be a change at the cultural level. What's your solution?
Lash
 
  -4  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 12:44 pm
The solution is to stop your pop-lawyering for Democrat sex predators.
ehBeth
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 01:35 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
What's your solution?


I think that one thing that needs to happen, consistently, is for other people in positions of power to speak up when they witness the inappropriate behaviour or hear about it.

It does happen occasionally, but not nearly enough.

Sometimes it is enough for someone to say 'what you did/are doing is wrong'. 'Dude, that is uncool'. I've seen that work on occasion. The tiniest sliver of negative light on the behaviour is enough to stop some.

We all - men and women - have to keep pushing back - to not be put off by the threats, implied and direct. It definitely gets tricky when your employment/livelihood is threatened and so far courts here haven't been very strong in this area.

Keep shining the light on the behaviours/attitudes - tell people when they are being jerks.

It's definitely easier for me because I'm pretty much old and give good stink eye. I say things because I don't care about the repercussions any more - but people 10 years younger than me, they're still paying mortgages and feel the need to be quiet/invisible. As long as they're not physically injured, they put up with crap.

It's about speaking up - particularly if you're in a position of influence.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 01:39 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:
As long as women smile demurely the men involved will have no reason to cease their behavior.


Evil or Very Mad

____

long past time for anyone witnessing these things or hearing about them to tell the men and women behaving inappropriately that it is not acceptable to them

everyone's got a responsibility here
ehBeth
 
  3  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 01:40 pm
@hightor,
hightor wrote:

Quote:
not expected?

Right, not expected.


you may not have picked up the absolute fury in my tone here
Cycloptichorn
 
  2  
Thu 30 Nov, 2017 02:28 pm
@ehBeth,
ehBeth wrote:

hightor wrote:
As long as women smile demurely the men involved will have no reason to cease their behavior.


Evil or Very Mad

____

long past time for anyone witnessing these things or hearing about them to tell the men and women behaving inappropriately that it is not acceptable to them

everyone's got a responsibility here


I don't really disagree with this but it ignores the reality that it's perilous to one's job to speak up about these sorts of things when the people involved are highly placed. It's not a simple calculation when you have to weigh your livelihood and your family's lives.

I've personally seen whistle-blowers forced out of their jobs as management doesn't want to confront the reality that one of their 'high performers' is in fact an abuser of people. These people were subsequently blacklisted in my industry and were basically fucked. I don't say this to say that you're wrong that people should be speaking up, merely to point out that the situation is a lot more complicated than you're making it out to be here.

Even if you don't lose your job, you can pretty much forget about advancement from that point on. I'm not at all sure I'd trade my career to report someone who I have no real belief would get in trouble even if I did.

What more, let's examine the fact that in so many of these situations, people ARE reporting them to HR - and nothing is happening. To the abusers, anyway.

Cycloptichorn
 

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