192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
BillW
 
  4  
Fri 17 Nov, 2017 10:03 pm
Quote:
Anybody who has been banned from a Mall should be banned from the Senate!


Spoken by a respected Republican Strategist, Mark McKinnon.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  -1  
Fri 17 Nov, 2017 10:53 pm
@snood,
Quote:
This abysmal jerk really thinks he's smarter than everyone and can't resist letting his inner asshat show.


I gave it a PMSL vote up. Pretty funny, and quite clever.
0 Replies
 
Builder
 
  -2  
Fri 17 Nov, 2017 11:24 pm
@Setanta,
Quote:
Here was the straw man fallacy you employed. At no time did I compare the moral turpitude of Clinton to that of Moore. If you want to do so, that's fine, but you have no business bringing that up the context of my condemnation of those who grope people.


Not a single mention of that prez plump character.

Be careful, or that setanta dude will be on your case about that.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 12:18 am
@oralloy,
oralloy says:
Quote:

If it's OK when Bill Clinton does it, it's OK when Roy Moore does it.


Utter bullcrap. What Clinton did has no bearing on whether or not Moore did wrong. Moore did wrong. He's a slime ball on a number of fronts.. He's a disgrace to Alabama and the country.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 02:12 am
@snood,
snood wrote:



Nope, can't recall any of that. Also can't recall the democratic presidential candidate being caught on tape admitting to "inspecting" naked young beauty contestants, and grabbing women by their genitals without their consent.

It's so typical of Finn to be appalled and outraged by the terrible hypocrisy in dems for daring to admit the guilt of Clinton at this late date, while at the same time not seeing or just never mentioning how cravenly his side dismisses Trump's accusers while they elected and continue to defend him. And that's not even to mention his implicit defense of Moore, whose holy-roller hypocrisy is beneath disgust.

So high and mighty while defending the currently serving POS - who by the way is still very justifiably the main focus of this thread.


Another recent passenger on Set's Logical Fallacy Express who chooses to jump off when it suits him.

Lately, a few people here, including our friend snood, have taken to slapping a fancy Latin term, (essentially meaning "you too") like a trump card whenever someone else attempted to argue (in response to criticism of Pres. Trump or Roy More as respects their behavior towards women) "What about Clinton?" It's not a bad card to play since whatever Clinton did or did not do doesn't mitigate or change whatever Trump or Moore has done.

Now here we have the same fellow snood responding "What about Trump and Moore?" to criticism of Clinton's sexual predation. If that ain't a Tu quoque argument, then I will have to admit I don't know what one is.

But snood hasn't just jumped off of Set's train, he jumped into the arms of Madam Logical Fallacy. Straight from his "you too" argument, he launches into a "you POS" argument, sometimes known as Ad hominem. Precious little about the argument I made, but quite a lot about high and mighty me personally.

Well, you may think that was a pretty exciting stunt by snood, but wait, he went for the trifecta and the logical fallacy that perhaps Set despises most: The infamous Straw Man Argument whereby you misrepresent someone's position because you would prefer not to argue with what he or she actually wrote:

Quote:
And that's not even to mention his implicit defense of Moore, whose holy-roller hypocrisy is beneath disgust.


He would have done better not to mention it at all because it doesn't exist. If you can find a defense of Moore in my post I would like to know about it considering that what I did write was that I believed he is guilty of the charges leveled at him by at least four of the five women who have come forward and that if I was a citizen of Alabama I would not vote for him. Mighty lame defense if you ask me, but then snood has some spooky mind reading abilities as evidenced by the fact that he is forever telling people what they are thinking, despite what they might write. The use of "implicit" is cute too and there's probably a logical fallacy among the list of about 100 that covers what he's up to with it.

You can't prove someone implied a meaning, only that you inferred it. Others may agree with you that it seems like the person meant what you suggest, but unless they share snood's mental powers, they can't know if the person actually did. Using "implied" and "implicit" can provide you with standing (albeit often very shaky standing) to argue someone is in favor of or believes all sort of things. For instance, I might argue that snood's post contained an implicit threat to cause me physical injury.

Can't see it? Well, that what I inferred from it and my inference is just as solid as snood's concerning my supposed defense of Moore.

To round this post off, let's remember and try to apply the lesson Setanta has so assiduously been trying to teach us: a)Whether or not Bill Clinton is a sexual predator has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Roy Moore, Donald Trump, George H. W. Bush, Roger Ailes, Bill O'Reilly, Al Franken or even Santa Claus are sexual predators and b) Whether or not Democrats who defended Clinton, but criticize Trump, Moor, Ailes et al for sexual misconduct has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not Republicans are hypocrites for the same reason.

As difficult as it is to resist arguing "Well, you did it too!" doing so is, indeed, a logical fallacy. It may make us feel good but it doesn't assist our argument. Likewise Ad hom
izzythepush
 
  2  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 05:02 am
Quote:
A Texas motorist whose vehicle window decal directed an expletive at US President Donald Trump and his voters has been arrested.

Karen Fonseca, 46, was detained on Thursday on an outstanding warrant and has been freed on bail.

Her arrest came a day after a local sheriff warned that the driver of the pick-up truck could be charged with disorderly conduct.

The lawman's comments provoked an outcry over free speech.

Fort Bend County Sheriff Troy Nehls' office said he had deleted his Facebook post, which included a photo of the vehicle's sticker, because his family was being threatened.

"The objective of the post was to find the owner/driver of the truck and have a conversation with them in order to prevent a potential altercation between the truck driver and those offended by the message," the sheriff's office said on Thursday afternoon.

"Since the owner of the truck has been identified, the Sheriff took down the post. Due to the hate messages he has been receiving towards his wife and children, the Sheriff will not be commenting on the matter further."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-42032634
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 05:02 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
My money is on there being a lot more to O'Neill's past sexual activity than simply making love to consenting gorgeous women.

Promiscuity always eluded me, self-effacing nebbish that I am. I can recall the details of relationships from the distant past but I wouldn't describe them as numerous or particularly memorable. But I've known guys — probably we all have, hell, some of us might have actually been one of those guys — who made sexual seduction into a sport. You know, the kind of guys who scored — and bragged about it. I never respected those guys that much. I guess I may have been jealous but the main thing is that they were, by and large, assholes.
Quote:
"Oh, that was decades ago when I was only 40 and so much less mature and so much more confused."

The hypocrite Henry Hyde's excuse. But where is the cut-off point? Late teens? Early twenties? Some people actually do mature over time and learn to behave responsibly. Mitt Romney might have beaten up a fag when he was in college but he doesn't act like that anymore. So why bring it up? (That's a rhetorical question; I know why.)
Quote:
If he was a pig with any of the 50 beauties, at least one is likely to get pissed off about this idiotic stunt and go to the media, so we probably won't have to wait long to find out.

So, this guy slept with fifty gorgeous women. Maybe they were all one night stands, but there might have been a few painful breakups along the way. A woman might have felt she'd been done wrong. After all those things he told her. After all those things she did to please him. So, in the current climate she goes public. "He treated me as an object! He promised me a diamond but it was just a zircon! He dialed another girlfriend when I went to the ladies' room and left me with the check!" So maybe none of these things rises to the level of abuse — but publicizing old resentments during a media frenzy as we're seeing now can have the same effect as exposing an actual criminal act. Some aging Lothario gets lumped in along with a whole gang of sickos and in the current atmosphere just being known to have enjoyed casual sex is made out to be some sort of deranged pervert. Teflon Don gets a pass but woe to anyone who might have been know to have cheated at playing "Spin the Bottle". I'd rather hear about Benghazi.

Setanta
 
  2  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 05:25 am
Then of course, maybe Plump is not the Lothario he would have us believe, and he's just lying about that. After all, he does have a very obvious penchant for lying.
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oralloy
 
  -4  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 06:03 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
As difficult as it is to resist arguing "Well, you did it too!" doing so is, indeed, a logical fallacy. It may make us feel good but it doesn't assist our argument.

I strongly disagree. Why should we let the Democrats create a double standard where the rules never apply to them but still apply to everyone else?
blatham
 
  4  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 06:06 am
@revelette1,
Quote:
Where do you any of ya'll think this [collusion investigation] will eventually lead?

Indictments for financial crimes. Possibly obstruction. Collusion findings - I don't know.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  4  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 06:11 am
Nothing that was offered by Oralloy in response to my statement about the gropers was a fact. He was offering inferences, alleged implications and characterizations. Those are not facts, they are opinions. He has also made a slur against Snood's intelligence, while whining that I made a personal attack against him when I pointed out the poor rhetorical method he employs. It is clear over the years that his habitual modus operandi is to offer opinions and claim that they are facts, when clearly they are not. All of that is further skewed by the polemical nature of his "contributions" here. He comes here only to attack ideas, and those who do not agree with his warped political views. My apologies to Mr. Latham for the disruption of the thread. I will not respond to that member again.
hightor
 
  5  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 06:44 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
If it was OK for Bill Clinton to do it then it's also OK for Roy Moore to do it.

Where did Monterey Jack, or anyone else on A2K, say that what Clinton did — alleged assaults — was "okay"?
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 07:27 am
Jackson Lears wrote:
Liberal democracy is one of those formulaic terms that all too easily evaporate into the realm of grand abstractions: the American Dream, the Free World, the Right Side of History. Yet those two words succinctly capture the tension between individual freedom and communal well-being that has animated American politics since the nation’s founding. Various ways of balancing that tension have surfaced throughout US history: legal principles and practices, lists of inalienable rights, government structures and procedures, legislation in response to civil war and social upheaval.
(...)
Reports of ideology’s death were greatly exaggerated. Since the 1970s we have seen a resurgent reactionary ideology used to justify the systematic dismantling of the welfare state—a process organized by right-wing elites who, for example, seek to enact policies that have the effect of defunding the public schools, then use allegations of incompetence as an excuse to privatize education. The assault on the public sector, the celebration of markets as the solution to all problems, the underwriting of free-market ideology by government policy—these tendencies reacquired legitimacy and centrality in the 1980s and have maintained their hegemony ever since. In less than four decades, the ship of state and the conversation on its bridge have steered away from the midcentury idiom of liberal democracy and toward…what? New times, alas, demand neologisms. The return of nineteenth-century slogans and pieties, combined with a twenty-first-century veneer of technocratic expertise, has inspired many observers to call this new ideological consensus “neoliberalism.”
(...)
This narrowing of human horizons has political as well as educational effects. As humans become “human capital”—for themselves, for a firm, for a state—investment value trumps all other values; moral autonomy fades, and with it the very notion of a sovereign individual; citizenship shrivels to the mere ritual of casting a vote. Beneath the all-seeing gaze of the omnipotent market, the sovereignty of the state (like the sovereignty of the individual) shrinks to the vanishing point. Amid chants about freedom, the very basis of freedom (at least in the liberal and republican traditions)—individual and state sovereignty—is undermined and ultimately destroyed.

Technocratic Vistas: The Long Con of Neoliberalism
0 Replies
 
revelette1
 
  2  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 09:13 am
Kushner didn't recall any campaign WikiLeaks contact (CNN)

Quote:
White House senior adviser Jared Kushner told congressional Russia investigators that he did not communicate with WikiLeaks and did not recall anyone on the Trump campaign who had, a source with knowledge of his testimony told CNN.

But Kushner did receive and forward an email from Donald Trump Jr. about contact Trump Jr. had with WikiLeaks, according to a new report this week and a letter from the Senate Judiciary Committee.

Kushner, President Donald Trump's son-in-law, was asked in July during his closed-door congressional testimony if he had any contacts with WikiLeaks or its founder Julian Assange and he responded that he had not, according to the source. He also told Congress he did not know of anyone on the campaign who had contacted WikiLeaks.

A separate source familiar with Kushner's interview with congressional investigators said he accurately answered questions about his contact and didn't recall anyone else in the campaign who had contact.

In a statement Friday night, Kushner attorney Abbe Lowell said the committee had asked "a classic gotcha question.

"Mr. Kushner was asked if he had contacts with Wikileaks, Guccifer or DC Leaks and said no. He also said he did not know of such contacts by the campaign. From all I have now seen, his statement was accurate then as it is now. In over 6 hours of voluntary testimony, Mr Kushner answered all questions put to him and demonstrated that there had been no collusion between the campaign and Russia."

But Democrats are likely to amplify calls for Kushner to return for more testimony on the heels of a letter on Thursday from Senate Judiciary Committee leaders that charged Kushner failed to turn over certain documents on a range of topics to the committee, including those related to WikiLeaks.

The letter from Republican Sen. Chuck Grassley of Iowa, the committee's chairman, and Sen. Dianne Feinstein of California, the committee's top Democrat, said that others had provided documents showing "September 2016 email communications to Mr. Kushner concerning WikiLeaks, which Мr. Kushner then forwarded to another campaign official.

The campaign's communications with WikiLeaks are under scrutiny after a report in The Atlantic earlier this week that Trump Jr. had corresponded with WikiLeaks over Twitter during the height of the 2016 presidential campaign. Trump Jr. subsequently shared his messages with WikiLeaks on Twitter.

The same day he received the first Twitter direct message from WikiLeaks about an anti-Trump PAC, Trump Jr. emailed Kushner and other senior officials on the campaign telling them WikiLeaks had made contact, according to The Atlantic. Kushner forwarded that email to campaign spokeswoman Hope Hicks, who is now White House communications director.




I do not see how the committee engaged in a "gotcha question." When they first asked Kushner if he had contact with WikiLeaks, they had not yet had in their possession documents relating the email from Trump Jr concerning WikiLeaks. So, Kushner lied when he said he did not know anyone who had contacts with WikiLeaks. I also do not see how his attorney could possible say Kushner's testimony was true then and still true today. It makes no sense to me.
revelette1
 
  2  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 09:21 am
Summary of the tax bill thus far, I am going to pray it does not pass the full senate after the Thanksgiving weekend.
Quote:
an analysis of their plan released Thursday projected the bill would actually raise taxes on low-income Americans within a few years.


House Passes Tax Bill, as Does Senate Panel (NYT)
0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  3  
Sat 18 Nov, 2017 10:43 am
@revelette1,
Quote:
I do not see how the committee engaged in a "gotcha question."

It's spin, that's all. How unfair those nasty people are being to the poor little son-in-law; he's such a nice boy.
0 Replies
 
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