monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

@georgeob1,

Quote:

Most of the human misery and suffering of the late, unlamented 20th century was caused by self proclaimed "reformers" of human society, bent on improving the condition of all through the imposition of their ideas of various socialist paradises.

Good to see you here.

First thing, these attempts were responses to human misery and suffering so I'm not sure if leaving the old regime in charge would have been a better choice.

Secondly, the reforms we're talking about today, such as consumer protection, don't really rise to the level of revolutionary upheaval.

But I agree — human are basically incompetent when it comes to organizing free and fair societies.

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Finn's stance - calling everyone a "fool" who doesn't believe all politicians to be unprincipled, sure strikes me as simple-minded, lazy thinking.
He posits that it's a fait accompli that all politicians are unprincipled because of "money and power".

Saying that the problem with politics and government is that all politicians are unprincipled is exactly like me saying that the problem with law enforcement and the dispensation of justice is that all police officers are evil.

I think it's a much more accurate statement that bad government (and unjust law enforcement) happens because some of the practitioners are corrupt and unprincipled, and the ethical, principled among them too often stand in cowed silence.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

Most of the human misery and suffering of the late, unlamented 20th century was caused by self proclaimed "reformers" of human society, bent on improving the condition of all through the imposition of their ideas of various socialist paradises.

This is a claim you've been making for years with the implication that "leftism" is either identical to or similar enough to the situation under Stalin or the Chinese regimes that one can discard leftist political ideology either entirely or mostly. It's a straw-man argument.

As I've pointed out to you before, all of the successful (relatively free, relatively prosperous) nation-states that exist now are mixed economies with enterprise supported but not allowed to dominate and with redistribution of wealth. Conversely, there are no examples of successful nation-states where these arrangements are missing.

Quote:

A common element in all that appears to be a thirst for power among those who are sure they alone are right and have the good of others in mind.

If you want to have a careful discussion of Isaiah Berlin's Two Concepts of Liberty which addresses this problem of people who deem their ideas so true and so good that they therefore have warrant to insist that all others abide by the strictures of their ideas (and believe it inevitable that those others forced to abide will one day thank the enforcers) I'm up for it. But I'm not going to let you get away with sloppy thinking or assertions about wisdom.

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@Brand X,

Brand X wrote:

No one in banking, or Wall Street finances went to jail for the 2008 financial crash, it seems those industries will always have a Teflon coating.

.....And, that coating is made by the Republickan Party!

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@blatham,

I didn't argue that all "leftists" are in the grip of the traits I indicated, Instead I suggested it is a common trait detectable among many, ( and present in your dialogue above) and one that tends to identify the group. Your false claim of a straw man is typical, but wrong.

I have indeed made this point many times. However it is one that is widely recognized as true among historians of the 20th century.

blatham wrote:

As I've pointed out to you before, all of the successful (relatively free, relatively prosperous) nation-states that exist now are mixed economies with enterprise supported but not allowed to dominate and with redistribution of wealth. Conversely, there are no examples of successful nation-states where these arrangements are missing.

I have no argument with that statement at all. You appear to posit it as some kind of alternative to what I wrote. That is demonstrably false and deceitful.

The dialogue here centers on just what should be the mixture of the features you listed features, and which elements we currently need more or less of. An excess of government control and redistribution of wealth tends to inhibit economic growth and productivity for all. Examples of that abound in the developed world. Such excesses also often end up threatening democracy. Unbridled capitalism has its own defects as well. Venezuela provides us an excellent reminder of the failings of serious efforts at socialism. The result there is the usual ones - poverty and tyranny.

We can debate whatever ideas about liberty you like. I did enjoy your name-dropping there, Very impressive.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

Quote:
Interesting that Graham and Kennedy cast "no" votes — and I'm disgusted with my state's senator, Collins, for siding with the GOP establishment once again. I think she was concerned about "frivolous lawsuits" or something.
Graham is such an odd duck. I once heard him in a debate/discussion with Breyer and he's clearly a very smart fellow (and he was very gracious in behavior throughout). Sometimes I agree with his stance on some issue and other times I want to slap him with a rotting salmon. I hadn't realized Collisasns' vote had been in favor. She's another odd one.

They have to show loyalalty or die!

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@snood,

snood wrote:

Finn's stance - calling everyone a "fool" who doesn't believe all politicians to be unprincipled, sure strikes me as simple-minded, lazy thinking.
He posits that it's a fait accompli that all politicians are unprincipled because of "money and power".

Right Wing SCOTUS ruled this to be free speech, hmmmmmmmmmm........

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In Sofia Lash Both's phony baloney "rising fascism" thread, I pointed out, before anyone else from the right started whining about it, that I saw no difference between Stalinist Russia and the classic European fascist states. Nevertheless, the effort by conservatives around here to smear allegedly leftists members by comparisons to fascism continues. The member George is addicted to accusing anyone with whom he disagrees politically as little better than a communist. As Bernie rightfully points out, it's a straw man because it makes no distinction between liberal democracy and the Marxist state. My experience of this member George is that he uses this smear on anyone who is not to the right of Genghis Kahn.

Organized labor in the United States secured workers' compensation legislation, unemployment compensation legislation, fair labor standards legislation and the floor on wages/ceiling on hours packages that are found in all states. I don't see conservative voters lining up to call for the abolition of those measures, now considered basic employee rights. Bad air and bad water harm us all, and environmental regulation makes the world a safer place for us all. President Plump's regulatory wrecking crew now includes a carefully chosen head of the EPA to tear down those protectons , which is just fine and dandy for capitalists who live in gated communities patrolled by armed, private security guards, and who will jet off to an island in Florida if they want clean air and an exclusive beach.

At the end of the day, capitalism is about the bottom line, even if the bottom line wrecks society for 90% of the population. Calling people commies is the knee-jerk reaction of supporters of so-called laissez-faire capitalism (which has never, in fact, existed) to any suggestion that capitalists should be kept on a short leash.

Now the Koch brothers and those like them want a new and improved fascism--they don't want a close relationship with government, they want to own government. George's brave new world.

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Threats are preventing Wilson from Voting (McClatchy)

Quote:

"She's home," said Rep. Alcee Hastings, a Florida Democrat. "I have not spoken with her about it, but I've heard that she's received substantial death threats and I think she is doing everything she can to ratchet down and let some of us, including me, take over."

Hastings said she expected Wilson to return next week.

One racist threat against Wilson that surfaced on Facebook by a Chicago-area man is being investigated by police.

"Need ten good men to help carry out a lynching," the post read. "Must have own horse and saddle. Rope will be provided. This congresswomen (sic) is a disgusting pig. Someone should take their boot to her face."

The source close to Wilson said that there are "some" ongoing investigations into threats on the congresswoman.

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Tell me one thing. Why would a grieving widow lie about Trump having trouble with remembering her husband's name? Trump said she is lovely lady, but evidently according to him she is a liar.

Trump undercuts widow, says he remembered name ‘from the beginning’

Quote:

The White House disputed Wilson’s claims, which were then reiterated by an aunt who raised La David Johnson and by Johnson’s widow, who in a Monday interview with ABC’s “Good Morning America” told ABC anchor George Stephanopoulos, “I heard him stumbling on trying to remember my husband’s name.”

“And that’s what hurt me the most, because if my husband is out here fighting for our country, and he risked his life for our country, why can’t you remember his name?” Myeshia Johnson said. “And that’s what made me upset and cry even more, because my husband was an awesome soldier.”

On Wednesday, Trump again pushed back on the claim about La David Johnson’s name, repeating it to reporters and saying he had stated it correctly during his initial call — in part because he was provided with a chart that had the fallen soldier’s name written out.

“I certainly respect La David, who I, by the way, called La David right from the beginning,” he said. “Just so you understand, they put a chart in front — ‘La David,’ it says ‘La David Johnson.’ So I called right from the beginning.”

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@revelette1,

That’s deeply disturbing.

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@Setanta,

Perhaps George is of the old school of conservatives like the Birch society?

Quote:

William F. Buckley, the founder of National Review (where I work), once confessed in private, "I wish to hell I could attack them without pleasing people I can't stand to please."

By "them" he meant the members of the conspiracy-mongering, anti-Communist, anti-United Nations, anti-civil rights John Birch Society (named after a Christian missionary who was killed in 1945 by Communist forces, making Birch the first American casualty in the Cold War). The people Bill couldn't stand to please, of course, were liberals.

Conservatives now appeasing right-wing crackpots rather than deflating them (Jonah Goldberg - Tribune Content Agency)

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

I suggested it is a common trait detectable among many, ( and present in your dialogue above)

Where exactly?

Quote:

it is one that is widely recognized as true among historians of the 20th century

Can you give us a quote (with citation) from even one? Two?

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Examples of that abound in the developed world.

If they abound, you ought to be able to point to them. And, you ought to be able to explain how it is that the prosperity and liberty of Norway, Sweden, Canada, New Zealand, Australia, Belgium, Finland, Switzerland, Netherlands, the UK, Germany, Ireland etc clearly do not match the pattern you suggest even while being rather more "leftist" than the US.

Quote:

We can debate whatever ideas about liberty you like. I did enjoy your name-dropping there, Very impressive.

It's not name dropping. It's the deservedly famous essay on exactly the issue in question. But you'll have to read it. You can start at the beginning or you can start HERE

Quote:

I didn't argue that all "leftists" are in the grip of the traits I indicated, Instead I suggested it is a common trait detectable among many, ( and present in your dialogue above) and one that tends to identify the group. Your false claim of a straw man is typical, but wrong.

This is what you wrote

Quote:

Most of the human misery and suffering of the late, unlamented 20th century was caused by self proclaimed "reformers" of human society, bent on improving the condition of all through the imposition of their ideas of various socialist paradises.

Outside of the communist states, to what do you refer? Hitler wasn't very liberal, after all. Nor Mussolini. Nor Japan.

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@revelette1,

Quote:

Why would a grieving widow lie about Trump having trouble with remembering her husband's name? Trump said she is lovely lady, but evidently according to him she is a liar.

Wasn't that one typical. He is actually proud of his lying. He's proud of conning people. He's proud of confusing people. He is a sociopath.

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@Setanta,

Quote:

Now the Koch brothers and those like them want a new and improved fascism--they don't want a close relationship with government, they want to own government. George's brave new world.

Yes. Owning/controlling government is the goal. A system of governance where the citizens can choose what laws they live under cannot be permitted (even if the impression of such a thing must be maintained) because those citizens might choose "wrong" laws and arrangements. That is why Obamacare has been targeted as it has been.

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Quote:

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - Twitter Inc on Thursday banned advertisements from accounts owned by Russian media outlets Russia Today (RT) and Sputnik, citing allegations by U.S. intelligence agencies that the outlets tried to interfere with the 2016 U.S. election.

That's very disappointing ... for some.

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@Builder,

You're right of course. I should have written RIP A2K Political Forum.

Quote:

Imagine what it would be like, if we didn't present an alternative to their propaganda?

It's too horribly banal to consider.

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@blatham,

As you wish.

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This is heartening

Quote:

Fox News’ role as a secondary communications shop for Donald Trump and host Sean Hannity’s advertiser troubles are apparently starting to affect the network’s bottom line.

In September 2017, Fox News’ ad revenue dropped a whopping 17 percent as compared to September 2016, while CNN’s dipped 1 percent and MSNBC’s increased 2 percent.

MM

With any luck at all, the continuing scandals at Fox will derail Murdoch's attempts to take over Sky in Britain. But I am not entirely certain it will. Murdoch is completely immoral/amoral and is a very wily criminal who knows how to corrupt institutions of governance. Fingers crossed. It would also be a fine thing if he dies quickly.

1 Reply

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

This is heartening

Quote:
Fox News’ role as a secondary communications shop for Donald Trump and host Sean Hannity’s advertiser troubles are apparently starting to affect the network’s bottom line.

In September 2017, Fox News’ ad revenue dropped a whopping 17 percent as compared to September 2016, while CNN’s dipped 1 percent and MSNBC’s increased 2 percent.
MM

With any luck at all, the continuing scandals at Fox will derail Murdoch's attempts to take over Sky in Britain. But I am not entirely certain it will. Murdoch is completely immoral/amoral and is a very wily criminal who knows how to corrupt institutions of governance. Fingers crossed. It would also be a fine thing if he dies quickly.

I am sure they have lost a lot due to "Never tRump"ers too!

1 Reply

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