192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:38 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:

You should be in rcovery by now and will read about how every one of us is wishing you a speedy and unremarkable recovery. No pressure, just good wishes


Oh this is embarrassing. Embarrassed

I certainly now wish I had not posted my response to blatham or made it more clear I was tweaking him. I'm always reluctant to use smiley faces to signify that I am joking because it seems in some way condescending towards the person to whom I am "telling" the joke (and everyone knows I religiously avoid condescension Smile ) but after this I am going to need to rethink that approach.

As with everyone else who expressed good wishes, I thank you for yours, even though the announcement of my surgery was part of a small dose of sarcasm intended for Bernie. Obviously you were not alone in interpreting my post as serious, and even though it was not, your expressed sentiment was sincere, and therefore along with all of the others, humbling and well appreciated.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:47 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Whatever Shakespeare intended the lesson to be, we can be fairly certain that the members of the audience who shave stood and cheered when Trump/Caesar is assassinated, haven't been cheering the bard or his lesson.


My point exactly, Finn. All the abstract discussion of what art is, or what the first amendment allows, etc., is beside the basic point. It's the audience reaction that is disgusting. As I said in a prior post:
Quote:
In all of the many thousands of times the standard presentation this Shakespearean play has been staged, the audience has never been known to cheer wildly when Caesar is assassinated, eh? Generally the mood gets very somber


=====

Quote:
In my mind, the Eustis production isn't lousy art because it might incite some lunatic to violence, but because it was created, in too large a measure, to exploit base emotions and indulge the hatred of it's director and large segments of it's audience.


Here again I don't think the question of what is, or aint, "lousy art" really enters the picture. "Art" is not the issue here. To me, the latter part of this sentence conflicts with the first part, though. It seems your suggestion is that it couldn't possibly "incite some lunatic to violence." I disagree.

Some bigtime psychologist (I've forgotten just who) was asked if there was ANY behavior so inherently disgusting that the average person would never do it. His answer was: "No, I don't think so, not if his peers strongly approve of the behavior." Some muslim mothers, for example, encourage and pray that their children become suicide bombers, knowing that their memory will be honored by the community if they do so. That seems highly "unnatural," but it's a common sentiment nonetheless. 5 year-olds say their dream is to become such a "martyr."

Many losers desperately seek "approval." Seeing an audience wildly cheer a particular action could easily lead some of these types to implement the cheered action.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:52 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

HeyFinn we allknow there are some things more important in life than politics, like life itself, right? So we"re pulling for you, recover and get back here soonest.


Many thanks Jack, but I never was scheduled for any surgery. It was poorly worded or way too subtle (probably the former) but it was intended as a slightly sarcastic response to Bernie's post announcing his upcoming lecture on his magnificence (which I assumed was in jest too, but now I'm so confused).

You were far from the only one who interpreted my post and being serious and so the problem in the communication is all mine.

I'm repeating myself here, because one of the lessons learned with embarrassing situation is that a lot of members don't read all prior posts in a thread and you and a couple of other folks missed the ones in which I have explained that I am in fine health and the announcement about surgery was intended as a joke.

I will also repeat myself to tell you that while I really was just tweaking Bernie in jest and never for a moment considered anyone would take me seriously, I, obviously, missed the mark. Mine was a joke but your well wishes along with those of a number of others were clearly sincere and I find them all humbling and very much appreciated.
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:55 pm
@layman,
Unlike some obsessives amongst you, I don't follow every perverse twist and quirk yo throw the thread into. The first I saw of it was ///finn's post about going in for surgery and there was no context in that. I would have had togo back over six pages of inanity or so to find it. No thank you. Appparently whoever did it, Blickers?, Blatham?, got Trump's cabinet meeting dead on, the one he called so his Cabinet could come and heap praise on him and tell him how wonderful it was to work for him, which, being the sycophantic toadies they are, they did in excruciating detail.Pretty disturbing that someone needs that much artificial ego stroking.

I can see I wasted sympathy on someone who didn't deserve it. Won't happen agin, Finn. I thought you were better than that. Now Layman, I know, is not better than that.
layman
 
  -2  
Sat 17 Jun, 2017 11:59 pm
@MontereyJack,
A little hint, Jack. If you ever want to know just what a particular poster is actually responding to (often quite useful in actually understanding what is being said, as opposed to merely "reading" it), just click on the name at the very top of the post.

That said, NOBODY, EVER, "re-schedules" heart surgery for anything but the most extreme reasons. That alone should have immediately tipped you off. If you had a sense of humor, it would have.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:11 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
one of the lessons learned with embarrassing situation is that a lot of members don't read all prior posts in a thread


That has always been obvious, Finn, but what "lesson" is there to be learned from it? Are you going to start pasting the entire thread into each of your posts before making your own comment?

I don't recall what you did in this particular case, but I often quote the precise portion of a post that I am responding to, just so the context and the intention will be (at least somewhat) clear without having to "scroll back."

But if my knowledge that not everyone read every post stopped me from making some point, then I could never comment here at all.
layman
 
  -2  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:19 am
@layman,
For that matter, it often appears that even those responding to a post I've made have not read it (all), despite trying to keep most of my posts relatively short. If they can't even read the post they are (generally) attacking, what lesson can I learn from that?

I don't see how anyone could have read ONLY your post, standing alone, and not understood that you were joking. Apparently many didn't, though.

But I don't blame you for that.
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:32 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
Gracefully done, Finn, I retract my remarks made without having experienced the whole discussion. I don't often agree with you, but my opinion of you as a thoughtful person has definitely risen.

I would say that Shakespeare has been restaged in the light of current events hundreds of times in the last four hundred years, as people draw new parallels.
and seeing parallels between Caesar as an incipient tyrant trying to destroy the Roamn republic and Trump's incipient autocracy makes sense to a lot of people..

Perspnal aside: I don't remember the play in any detail, who was for what, or Shakespeare's viewpoint at this point, I only remember that in 10th grade I had to stand on the front, rather Roman, steps of my high school and deliver Marc Anthony's speech, wrapped in a white bed sheet, to my classmates, for some reason. I can't even remember whether I had to do it in Latin or English. "Amici, Romani, Patrii" Friends, Romans, Countrymen sticks in my mind, so maybe it was Latin. Orating in a bedsheet is not all it's cracked upto be, especially whan everybody in all the other classrooms that faced on the steps is staring at you thru the windows.
layman
 
  0  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:35 am
@MontereyJack,
Toga! Toga! Toga!
MontereyJack
 
  3  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:36 am
@layman,
Did you hear, Otter just died.
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:39 am
@MontereyJack,
Really!? What a great loss. Too bad it wasn't Flounder, eh?

MontereyJack
 
  3  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:47 am
@layman,
Damn. It WAS Flounder. Faulty memory after just reading the headline. Anoother hopefuly more accurate memory after just googling for the obit. Apparently he went on to play in "Babylon 5", often regarded, especially on Big Bang Tehory as the worst SF TV series ever. I"ve never watched it.
layman
 
  0  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 12:49 am
@MontereyJack,
Flounder, ya fucked up. Ya trusted us.
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 02:31 am
http://theredelephants.com/no-never-play-depicting-obama-assassinated/
layman
 
  -1  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 02:39 am
@gungasnake,
Heh. Figures that the lying left would try to claim that "Obama" was portrayed as Caesar just because a black actor, who looked nothing like him, played the role, eh?

Quote:
In 2012 there was in fact a Julius Caesar production in the flyover state of Minnesota. It did depict a black man getting assassinated. But it wasn’t a portrayal of Barack Obama. Not to mention no one cheered after the first knife was inserted into the gut of the actor like they did in the New York Trump version. The 2017 version however was essentially a stain double to President Trump, and was identical all the way down to his wife.


I saw an interview of a guy waiting to see the play. He said he had no problem whatsoever with Trump being assassinated on stage. He was then asked if he would feel differently if it were Hillary Clinton. He said: "Hell, yeah! Hillary is the boss."

At least he was honest, unlike some here, eh?
gungasnake
 
  -2  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 02:49 am
@layman,
They're trying to weaponize their control over the arts....
0 Replies
 
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 02:56 am
I mean, try to picture anybody trying to pull something like this play when FDR or Ike was president. That's right, they'd come and take them away to the funny farm, and I mean all of them, all of the actors, the writers, the company, and possibly even the dickhead bureaucrats responsible for any licenses involved.

0 Replies
 
hightor
 
  5  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 02:56 am
Frank Bruni in the NYT:

Quote:
In denouncing the hatred that brought bloodshed to a baseball diamond in Alexandria, Va., some people went ahead and spread more of it. Rush Limbaugh, take a bow. You called the shooter “a mainstream Democrat voter.” What do I call you? I want to be clear about my disgust, but not disgusting in my expression of it. That’s the hell of American politics and American discourse today, with its 140-character emissions.

To be seen in a thicket of hashtags and heard above the din, people screech. Passion and provocation blur. One is admirable, the other is adolescent, and too many of us have lost sight of the line between the two.

The shooting that wounded the Republican Congressman Steve Scalise and four others may or may not be the bitter fruit of that — the biography of the gunman, James Hodgkinson, suggests many prompts, including mental illness — but it demands soul-searching along those lines. If not physically then civically, we’re in a dangerous place when it comes to how we view, treat and talk about people we disagree with. Ugly partisanship may not be new, but some of its expressions and accelerants are. We’d be foolish to let this moment pass without owning up to them.

Over the past decade in particular, the internet and social media have changed the game. They speed people to like-minded warriors and give them the impression of broader company or sturdier validation than really exist. The fervor of those in the anti-vaccine movement exemplifies this. So did the stamina of Americans who insisted that Barack Obama was born abroad — and who were egged on by Donald Trump.

Admirers of a responsible politician or righteous cause coalesce quickly, but the same goes for followers of a hatemonger or crackpot. One good articulation of this came from David Simas, who was Obama’s political director, in a New Yorker article by David Remnick that deconstructed the 2016 election.

What people find on the web “creates a whole new permission structure, a sense of social affirmation for what was once unthinkable,” Simas told Remnick. Obama, in his own comments to Remnick, picked up that thread, saying, “An explanation of climate change from a Nobel Prize-winning physicist looks exactly the same on your Facebook page as the denial of climate change by somebody on the Koch brothers’ payroll.”

“The capacity to disseminate misinformation, wild conspiracy theories, to paint the opposition in wildly negative light without any rebuttal — that has accelerated in ways that much more sharply polarize the electorate,” Obama added. Suspicion blossoms into certainty. Pique flowers into fury.

Shortly after that New Yorker article appeared, a 28-year-old North Carolina man named Edgar Welch showed up armed at a restaurant in Washington, D.C. Welch had fallen under the spell of #pizzagate and come to believe that children were being imprisoned and sexually abused by Democrats in a basement there. One of the fabulists who’d spread this tale was the son of Mike Flynn, Trump’s short-lived national security adviser.

And then came Hodgkinson, who used social media as others do: to marinate in his political antipathies until swollen with them. In a Facebook post in March, he declared: “Trump Has Destroyed Our Democracy. It’s Time to Destroy Trump & Co.” Facebook groups to which he belonged included one called Terminate the Republican Party and another called the Road to Hell Is Paved With Republicans.

His life online reflected the goosing, goading, amplifying power of social media and the eminence of outrage in public debate. As Michael Gerson noted in The Washington Post after the shooting, today’s partisans “have made anger into an industry — using it to run up the number of listeners, viewers and hits.” Mocking and savaging political opponents have been “not only normalized but monetized,” Gerson added, and he stated the obvious, which needed stating nonetheless: “If words can inspire, then they can also incite or debase.”

That’s true whether those words are spoken from the right or from the left, and the monetization of partisan combat spans the ideological spectrum. I’m not in any way equating Alex Jones and Bill Maher — the former traffics in contemptible lies meant to whip the agitated into a full-blown frenzy — but both turn politics into spectacle, the better to keep watchers and listeners tuned in.

Our language is growing coarser. Our images, too. And even if they’re only rarely a conduit to violence, they’re always a path away from high-minded engagement.

Madonna fantasizes about blowing up the White House. Kathy Griffin displays a likeness of Trump’s severed head. Stephen Colbert uses a crude term to describe Trump as Putin’s sexual boy toy. Maher suggests that Trump and his daughter Ivanka have engaged in incest. I don’t question the earnestness of these entertainers’ objections to Trump, which are wholly warranted. I ask whether they’re converting even one person with a contrary point of view.

Lately, Trump and his children have been playing the victims of all this, but save your tears. He has been an enormous part of the problem, from before his candidacy to the present. If anyone sets and bears responsibility for our country’s tone, it’s our president, and let’s please not forget that he got all those plaudits last week for his dignified, sensitive response to the Alexandria shooting because we’re never sure we can count on him to clear even the lowest of bars.

He doesn’t so much lead the country as addle it, unhinging everyone in his orbit and anyone pressed to keep tabs on him. Anderson Cooper, flustered by Jeffrey Lord’s blind worship of Trump, describes a vulgar scenario to ridicule it. Politicians litter their remarks with four-letter words.

We’re surrendering restraint and a musty but worthy thing called tact, in ways guaranteed to widen the divisions between us. The Fusion website published a story noting that one of the cops who heroically took on Hodgkinson and possibly saved Scalise’s life was a gay black woman and that Scalise, in his political career, has indulged white supremacists and fought against L.G.B.T. rights. That was worth telling.

But the headline began by branding him a “bigoted homophobe,” and the story described this situation as an “especially delicious irony.” “Delicious”? When the congressman is lying in a hospital bed in critical condition?

For more and more Americans, the other side isn’t merely misguided in the extreme. It’s evil in the absolute, and virtue is measured by the starkness with which that evil is labeled and reviled. There are emotional satisfactions to this. There is also a terrible price.
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 03:33 am
0 Replies
 
izzythepush
 
  4  
Sun 18 Jun, 2017 03:33 am
Julius Caesar was nothing like Trump, he was a successful general and much admired. Trump is a crooked businessman who is only admired by a bunch of slobbering lickspittles. If Trump is like any Roman Emperor it's Caligula, his birthday cabinet meeting where everyone had to praise him could have been penned by Robert Graves.

https://debravega.files.wordpress.com/2015/09/johnhurt2.jpg

He's even the same shade of orange.
0 Replies
 
 

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