192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
Olivier5
 
  2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 08:52 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Rake's progress is a chess opening? Please explain, Walt. Me not following.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 08:54 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

I have noticed a lot of your post are disingenuous. Those particular republicans might not have said the hate must stop, however, for eight long years we have had republicans making very provocative hate filled statements and now for republicans to talk about stopping the hate when it's their guy up in the oval office stinks and is hard to swallow. They sure didn't stop the hate when Giffords got shot regardless of it not being "proved" is was political driven. Moreover, Fox News and other conservative media went on about Obama for eight years every bit as much as MSN (so called) media is now. There just happens to be more to report about Trump because of the very real Russian investigation and Trump and his associates ties to it. Moreover, Trump makes provocative statements daily, sometimes more on the same day, it is how he got elected.


And you think my posts are disingenuous?

The hateful rhetoric is spewed equally over time, but not on a daily, monthly or even annual basis.

When a Democrat is president, the preponderance of hateful rhetoric comes from the right and when a Republican is in the White House it comes from the left.

You seem to have convenient amnesia about the GW Bush years, the insistence that he was a low grade moron, the Bushitler nonsense, the comparison to chimps and the claims of his going off the wagon. The hue and cry for him to be tried as a war criminal, and the journalist's lament that there wasn't an assassin like Hinckley or Chapman when you needed one.

All the people who have spewed hateful comments about Hillary and Bill Clinton, Barrack Obama and Jimmy Carter are as convinced as the ones who hurled them at Richard Nixon, Ronald Reagan and W, and now hurl them at Trump they they were deserved.

As long as the hateful feel righteous in their hate, and that their hatred is nothing like the other side's in terms of volume, intensity and illegitimacy, there is zero chance of a hate filled political climate changing.

blatham
 
  3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 08:56 am
Quote:
Philip Rucker
@PhilipRucker
A source sent me RNC/Trump talking points for Repubs seeking to discredit tonight's WaPo scoop on Mueller investigating Trump obstruction
14 Jun 2017


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DCU21etXUAAtfaH.jpg
blatham
 
  2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 09:05 am
America
America pop pop pop pop pop scream pop pop pop
god shed is grace on thee blam blam blam


https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-X1zzQGVbFUE/WUK0m8eHpqI/AAAAAAAAvnY/Q5PorxJ2KIkdKaEz7caDMaf8LkTB64hLACLcBGAs/s640/13092296_585062798335047_1507334245_n.jpg
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 09:20 am
@snood,
Quote:
How can a smart person think it's somehow okay for an elected federal official to be suggesting people resort to "2nd Amendment solutions"?


I don't know, who did?

You can believe me or not, but I do know very little about either Savage or Jones beyond the fact that they are hated by the left, and I contend that there is equal measures of hatred coming from the left and the right because, based on my experience, I believe it to be true. If I'm not particularly familiar with the people you believe to be the worst examples of right-wing hate mongers, why would I be familiar with their equivalents on the left. If I get a sniff of such moronic vitriol I turn away. I don't bath myself in it so I can work up a lather of outrage. I recognize it when it comes from the right and I don't nod my head and wouldn't say something equivalent to

"A little rough, but the guy is essentially right. W is a war criminal who should be put on trial!" or

"Yeah, holding up the bloody severed head of the president makes me a little queasy, but the guy is a monster and it's just artistic expression, after all."

I've stated in this forum previously that much of the rhetoric used against Obama was hateful and reprehensible. I feel no need to search for those comments and list them here to validate myself to you, of all people.

Your insistence and the insistence of your A2K associates that the comparison between hateful rhetoric on the left and right should be depicted in the following manner is a result of a perspective heavily clouded by ideology, tribalism and perhaps even, in some cases, hate.

https://renaissancehuman.files.wordpress.com/2015/08/mountain-molehill.gif

0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 09:21 am
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

No "pretending", I'm sure. Finn believes this. The error is one of carelessness in analysis and beneath that, a psychological resistance to what careful analysis might tell him.


That must be it! If only I paid more attention to your invaluable lessons, I finally might see the light.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:09 am
@blatham,
You can look at "Talking Points" as a helpful way to summarize valid points that should be considered when people associated with one side or the other speak to the media, or you can look at them as a list if the lied and dodges shills for one side or the other should make certain they mention when talking to the media.

How you do most often depends on what side you occupy and which side's Talking Points you're considering.

I can certainly see the value of them in terms of managing a consistent communication strategy among people who are designated as or assume the role of spokesperson for one side or the other. Crafting a communication strategy can be, but need not be an exercise in deceit.

My biggest problems with Talking Points relate more to those who use them than the lists themselves:

Drives me nuts when I hear the exact same wording of a particular point from multiple spokespersons. Have they been forced to memorize them? Are they reading from the list? Are they so poorly informed on the topic or so disbelieving of the validity of the point that they can't be trusted to express it with conviction in their own words?

Also drives me nuts, when someone being interviewed doesn't even make an effort to artfully weave a talking point into the answer of an unrelated question.

Interviewer: "Before we discuss the Mueller investigation, I understand that you have just returned from a series of trade meetings with Pacific Rim nations. Can you provide us with your assessment of how these talks went and if any major agreements were reached?

Interviewee: "There is no case for obstruction of justice. This point has been made by legal scholars from both sides of the aisle over and over again."

Can't stand either when a spokesperson realizes the interview is wrapping up and he or she starts talking over everyone and rattling of as many points as possible like the speed reading in a TV or radio ad of the fine print stuff required by law.

Finally, it also bugs me when people, not likely to be the spokespersons, assume without offer critical explanation for doing so that all of a list of Talking Points are false and their intent is sinister and venal.

Phillip Rucker in his tweet displays the typical conceit or journalists that has led to an erosion of standards: The story is as much or more about them than anything else.

There is only one point that addresses WaPo's big scoop (I wonder if Rucker was on Twitter crowing about WaPos other big scoop that DAG Rosenstein threatened to quit?) and it does so in the context of leaks (which is precisely how the story was obtained). It's a bit of a diversionary tactic, but it's true that the level of leaks in DC today is unprecedented and the impact is largely negative.

Trump's political opponents (including those in the MSM) understandably want to cast this entire matter as a grand Morality Play wherein Truth & Justice is embroiled in a desperate battle with Greed & Corruption, and virtues and sins have already been on display and will likely continue to be, but attempting to construct the entire story in this matter and ignoring the huge driving force of power politics is at best farcical.

Are the American people supposed to have concluded by now (Thanks to WaPo and the NY Times) that because they've reported that Mueller is investigating Trump for obstruction; based on the word of unnamed "officals," that the case is closed and Trump and his associates are all guilty? The Administration and it's spokesperson are not entitled to advance any arguments that might challenge such a conclusion? That a list of the points to be raised in such arguments is somehow evidence of their venality?

Res ipsa loquitur! The talking points list speaks for itself! No counter-arguments are required, it's mere existence is evidence of guilt and fear.


revelette1
 
  4  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:10 am
@Finn dAbuzz,
I don't disagree with your statements, I just don't remember you or any other conservative going on about "hate" when it was about Obama so it is tad hard to take now they are (and you) going on about it now. I remember the "hate" (although I didn't personally wish him ill)of George Bush, however that is not the point. The point is one I just stated.
revelette1
 
  4  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:19 am
Quote:
WASHINGTON — President Donald Trump confirmed Friday he was under investigation and appeared to take aim at a senior Justice Department official, in a tweet that seemed to encapsulate his frustration with the ongoing focus on Russia's involvement in the 2016 election.

"I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt," the president wrote in his tweet.

In another tweet earlier Friday, Trump writes, "After 7 months of investigations & committee hearings about my 'collusion with the Russians,' nobody has been able to show any proof. Sad!"

The Trump tweets come after the top lawyer for his transition team warned organization officials to preserve all records and other materials related to the Russia probe. An official of Trump's transition confirmed the lawyer's internal order sent Thursday. The transition official spoke on condition of anonymity because the person was not authorized to discuss post-election decisions publicly.

Trump's tweet that he's being investigated "by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director" may refer to Deputy Attorney General Rod Rosenstein. Rosenstein in a memo to Trump raised concerns over FBI Director James Comey. Trump cited the memo in firing Comey. And it was Rosenstein who appointed Robert Mueller as special counsel to investigate Russian involvement in the 2016 presidential election and possible collusion with the Trump campaign.

Also unclear was whether the president's comment confirming he was under investigation was based on direct knowledge or media reports that Mueller is examining whether the president obstructed justice by firing Comey last month.

The White House has directed questions to outside legal counsel, which has not responded.

Trump is under increasing pressure on the Russia probe. The order by the general counsel for his transition team casts a wide net on documents that could shed light on ties between Trump's presidential campaign and representatives of Russia's government.

The order also covers separate inquiries into several key Trump associates, including former national security adviser Michael Flynn, campaign adviser Paul Manafort, foreign policy aide Carter Page and outside adviser Roger Stone.

The transition order came the same day that Vice President Mike Pence confirmed that he had hired a private lawyer to represent his interests in the expanding probe. Pence headed the Trump transition until inauguration day.

The transition official said the organization has also separately asked the General Services Administration to preserve records from the Trump transition that were transferred to its facilities after Trump's inauguration. The transition, a nonprofit structurally separate from the Trump campaign, continues to operate with a small staff.

The memo sent on Thursday asks for records related to foreign travel, contacts with Russian "officials, agents or nationals" and background investigations into the top Trump associates now targeted by Mueller's probe. The memo asks for preservation of electronic communications and data, telephone logs, audio recordings, videos, calendars and other items.

Friday's tweets are the latest in a week of angry social media responses by the president over a report by The Washington Post that Mueller was looking into whether Trump obstructed justice.

"Why is that Hillary Clintons family and Dems dealings with Russia are not looked at, but my non-dealings are?" he asked at one point. "They made up a phony collusion with the Russians story, found zero proof, so now they go for obstruction of justice on the phony story. Nice," Trump wrote in his first tweet. "You are witnessing the single greatest WITCH HUNT in American political history - led by some very bad and conflicted people! #MAGA."


AP
ehBeth
 
  4  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:22 am
@revelette1,
Quote:
WASHINGTON —
"I am being investigated for firing the FBI Director by the man who told me to fire the FBI Director! Witch Hunt," the president wrote in his tweet.


oh dear

that's what happens when you let other people tell you what to do

Laughing Rolling Eyes Laughing
snood
 
  2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:25 am
Why aren't "they" investigating Hillary Clinton instead of him?
Because he's the president, Hillary is a private citizen that lost the election, and if he's corrupt people should know? Maybe?
snood
 
  2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:27 am
@ehBeth,
He'd be non-stop hilarious if I could just forget that he's the guy who's supposed to be in charge if the most powerful government and military on earth.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:35 am
@snood,
He's great at the squirrel alert for the right.

I mean it - he's good at it. He's got everyone darting around looking for squirrels and hating on each other when there is serious **** going on.

___


and I ask again ... who benefits from the increased partisanship in the US?
camlok
 
  -3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:39 am
@snood,
Quote:
who's supposed to be in charge if the most powerful government and military on earth.


You forgot,

who's supposed to be in charge if the most powerful war criminal/terrorist government and military on earth.
0 Replies
 
giujohn
 
  -3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:40 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Why aren't "they" investigating Hillary Clinton instead of him?
Because he's the president, Hillary is a private citizen that lost the election, and if he's corrupt people should know? Maybe?


And of course the reason that Hillary​ is not being investigated is because she's a private citizen...can you say specious reasoning?
izzythepush
 
  3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:46 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

I don't disagree with your statements, I just don't remember you or any other conservative going on about "hate" when it was about Obama so it is tad hard to take now they are (and you) going on about it now.


I think you have a point. When Jo Cox was murdered it brought condemnation across the political spectrum, even from the far right. On the anniversary of her murder communities are being brought together. I America it seems like an undignified scramble to claim the mantle of victimhood.

Quote:
Communities have come together to celebrate the life of the murdered MP Jo Cox.
The 41-year-old was shot and stabbed in Birstall, in her Yorkshire constituency of Batley and Spen, on 16 June 2016.
To mark the first anniversary of her death her family and friends have urged people to hold events that celebrate her life.
The Great Get Together, involving picnics, street parties and concerts, runs across the weekend.
Organised by the Jo Cox Foundation, it aims to reinforce the message in Mrs Cox's maiden speech in the House of Commons that "we have more in common than that which divides us".
Mrs Cox's sister, Kim Leadbeater, said the events were "nothing to do with politics, nothing to do with religion".

There will be moments of reflection in Birstall, the scene of many floral tributes to the MP in the days following her murder
"Nothing to do with anything other than getting together with people in your communities," she added.
"People are desperate for it - people want something that is about coming together and being positive."
The Labour MP's former constituency will be the focus of a number of events.
Schoolchildren across the area participated in special assemblies and Upper Batley High School renamed its conference centre in honour of Mrs Cox.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-40293045
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  4  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:47 am
@giujohn,
giujohn wrote:

snood wrote:

Why aren't "they" investigating Hillary Clinton instead of him?
Because he's the president, Hillary is a private citizen that lost the election, and if he's corrupt people should know? Maybe?


And of course the reason that Hillary​ is not being investigated is because she's a private citizen...can you say specious reasoning?



How do we know that Hillary isn't being investigated? What proof do you have that she isn't?
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 10:50 am
@revelette1,
revelette1 wrote:

I don't disagree with your statements, I just don't remember you or any other conservative going on about "hate" when it was about Obama so it is tad hard to take now they are (and you) going on about it now. I remember the "hate" (although I didn't personally wish him ill)of George Bush, however that is not the point. The point is one I just stated.


Well, I'm sure I didn't "go on" about it when it happened to Obama, you and other liberals had that covered, but I did call it for what it was when I agreed. I did take exception to the argument that because there were some hateful signs at more than one Tea Party rally that the Tea Party movement was hateful, and I would accept a similar argument made concerning the Women's March earlier this year to be valid. Because Ashley Judd and Madonna spewed hatred certainly doesn't indict all of the great many participants who attended in good faith and for good reason.

I also didn't accept the absurd presumptions that disagreement with Obama's politics and policies or even personal distaste for his arrogance and condescending nature, in any way was an indication of racism...and many such absurd presumptions were made in this forum.

Part of what is at play for people who believe that one side is much more hateful than the other is, as I noted before, an ideological perspective that on the one hand minimizes (if even slightly) the expressions of hatred made against political figures they don't favor and maximizes those made against figures they do. I've been guilty of it myself for example in focusing too much on Judd and Madonna in terms of my critique of the Women's March.

Another is this seeming obsession for equality in terms of "going on about" or criticizing individual nasty or hateful expressions. It' simply a matter of fact that when an incident arises that involves violence and/or hatred toward conservatives, the voices in this forum speaking out against it with frequency and the most vehemence will be predominantly conservative and when it is directed towards liberals those speaking out against it with the same frequency and vehemence will be liberals. I'm not sure why this is the case or exactly what it says, but I don't think it says conservatives are, in general, OK with hatred and violence against liberals or that liberals are, in general, OK with hatred and violence against conservatives. To the extent that either side is perhaps a little more tolerant of it or less enraged by it when the targets are members of the other side, it is roughly equal in measure.

You happen to be a liberal who is more likely to post opposition to hatred and violence against conservatives than most of your fellow A2K liberals (witness the dialogue about the shooting incident involving Republicans) and yet even your opposition is likely to be more tepid than that expressed by conservative members. It's probably has something to do with the tribalism evident in both our society and this forum, but conservatives are not going to pile on other conservatives and liberals are not going to pile on other liberals. Because a liberal here only posts one comment of disagreement with another's repeated postings that the shooting wasn't really a big deal, doesn't mean they actually agree with that sentiment or that they somehow haven't been sufficiently outraged in their objection. I can tell a conservative in this forum that I think something they posted was foolish, or wrongheaded, but I feel no obligation to do so and I certainly don't feel an obligation to call them stupid or corrupt or post that they must love the Gestapo.

The fact of the matter is that you are not going to see from conservatives the reactions you see from liberals. Nor will I see the reactions from liberals that I see from conservatives. If you don't realize that this is happening on both sides of the spectrum you are going to be left with the distorted believe that one side is much much different in behavior than the other.

0 Replies
 
snood
 
  5  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 11:00 am
Since both sides are equally guilty of hate speech, I guess there's also been a democratic president who encouraged physical violence from the podium during his campaign.
The name just slips my mind.
maporsche
 
  3  
Fri 16 Jun, 2017 11:08 am
@snood,
snood wrote:

Since both sides are equally guilty of hate speech, I guess there's also been a democratic president who encouraged physical violence from the podium during his campaign.
The name just slips my mind.


This point should be irrefutable...let's hope
 

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