192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
layman
 
  -2  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 08:24 pm
Ford pardoned Nixon on the grounds that it would be in the best interests of the country to end the ongoing obsession with Watergate that was greatly interfering with pursuit of solutions to more important problems facing the country.

The voters seems to accept and be satisfied with that, but ONLY because Nixon was out of office. Trump could do the same by letting Pence take over, I suppose.

But it would never have worked for Nixon if he simply tried to pardon himself and continue to hold power. It wouldn't work for Trump either, in my view. It wouldn't make the issue "just go away."
layman
 
  -2  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 08:30 pm
@layman,
The best thing for Trump to do, assuming Moeller accuses him of obstruction of justice, might be to just flatly deny it, and assert that he looks forward to confronting the bogus charges in open court when he leaves office. Until that time, he intends to serve the American people as he was elected to do.

Would he then be convicted of "high crimes and misdemeanors" by 2/3 of the Senate? I doubt it, just like Clinton wasn't convicted. He probably wouldn't even be impeached. The rationale would be that he's entitled to a presumption of innocence until such time as he's actually convicted of a crime.
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 08:30 pm
@oralloy,
OLralloy loves the Gestapo.
Blickers
 
  6  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 08:35 pm
@MontereyJack,
Quote Monterrey:
Quote:
It would be instant and compelling evidence of obstruction of justice, and would ignite a bipartisan firestorm of condemnation lfar behyopnd the present growing groundswell of condemnation.. He should tryk it. It would be the last stupid mistake he would make in office.

He'd better hurry up. There are so many scandals piling up, Trump doesn't have much time left in office. And it's getting worse-they're now looking into Trump's financial dealings and brought on a prosecutor who specializes in money laundering and financial crimes. That stuff is going to make Trump's obstruction of justice look like a pair of doctored parking tickets.
Blickers
 
  5  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 08:51 pm
@oralloy,
Quote Blickers:
Quote:
Senior Administration and campaign officials who work for Putin and then lie about it are not innocent.

Quote oralloy:
Quote:
The only thing they might be guilty of is failing to register as a foreign agent.

Manafort got paid millions by the Kremlin and he never reported it. Charges are being investigated. Also being investigated is the fact that Manafort signed a contract with one of Putin's operatives to promote Russian interests in the US and he never told anyone. Which means Congressional and Senate committees have every justification to look at this and investigate more.

No chance this is just about failing to register as a foreign agent. There's a ton of stuff here, and it has only begun to unravel.

Quote Blickers:
Quote:
Attorneys General who meet with Russian ambassadors and then lie about it twice are not innocent.


Quote:
Assumes facts not in evidence. Some of these supposed meetings may not have happened. And there is no proof that his statements were untrue, much less an intentional lie.

What is clearly IN evidence is that Attorney General Sessions lied to the committee confirming his appointment to that office that he never met the Russian ambassador, then admitted later the testimony was not the truth-AFTER the media found out Sessions had met the Russian ambassador. Then ANOTHER Sessions meeting with the Russian ambassador was discovered. Keep repeating these silly legal "defenses" that are being shot full of holes every night on the news if it makes you feel good. Trump goes down-soon. And maybe Pence as well.
gungasnake
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 09:12 pm
https://scontent-dft4-2.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/19148987_1181650298607966_8965810827664000735_n.jpg?oh=2adddb77dd20b5ca153a784d51be422c&oe=59D17F70
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 09:54 pm
Another cheese-eatin idea gone plumb wrong, eh?:

Quote:
Seattle gun tax failure--Firearm sales plummet, violence spikes after law passes

When the City of Seattle passed a tax on all sales of guns and ammunition, the measure was hailed as a way to defray the rising costs of gun violence.

But since the tax took effect, those costs have only risen as gun violence in the city has surged.

The number of people injured in shootings climbed 37 percent and gun deaths doubled, according to crime statistics from the Seattle Police Department.

Mike Coombs, owner of Outdoor Emporium, is the last large gun dealer left in Seattle. Coombs said gun sales have plummeted 60 percent. “I’ve had to lay off employees because of this,” Coombs said. “It’s hurting us, it’s hurting our employees.”

Coombs also owns a gun shop in the nearby city of Fife. Sales there are described as robust. plummet, violence spikes after law passes

Employees at the Big 5 sporting goods stores in Seattle also report anemic gun sales. But there’s evidence Seattleites are just going outside the city to buy their guns. Coombs also owns a gun shop in the nearby city of Fife. Sales there are described as robust. Another gun dealer simply left Seattle and moved his shop, Precise Shooter, to nearby Lynnwood. Sergey Solyanik said business has never been better.

Dave Workman thinks the city council should have predicted the results of the gun tax, such as gun dealers leaving with no drop in gun ownership. As for the gun violence, he says that too should not surprise anyone.

“All these gun control laws affect the wrong people,” Workman said. “The gang bangers don’t go in and buy ammunition at retail, at least not around here. It certainly hasn’t stopped them from getting their hands on firearms.”


Great idea! Drive all the business out of town with exorbitant taxes without improving anything. Typical cheese-eater lunacy.
0 Replies
 
glitterbag
 
  4  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 09:54 pm
I don't blame gunga one bit at all. In the old days, prior to this past Monday, you could rely on murderous assholes with access to automatic weapons to only go after elementary school children or historic churches in South Carolina. After all,those are places where you should insist that teachers, 8 year olds and church goers be heavily armed and train constantly to maintain lightening quick reflexes.

Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 09:59 pm
@layman,
If Trump were to resign or even if he was removed from office by Congress, I think that would be the end of it and there would be no criminal prosecution (unless actual treasonous acts were discovered and that's only the stuff of lefty wet dreams) either because Pence pardoned him or the Beast was finally sated.

Victor Davis Hanson questions whether the Beast would be satisfied with Trump only leaving office. With each passing day I'm growing closer to that conclusion myself, but I have to believe that even clowns like Schumer and Pelosi will, upon Trump leaving the White House and returning to his refuge in Trump Tower to swing on the bells, have retained their sanity and their sense of political self-preservation with enough of the other clowns in the clown car to be able to keep a leash on the rabid dogs in the Democrat pack.(How's that for mixing metaphors!)

Trump pardoning himself wouldn't work for Trump anymore than it would have worked for Nixon.

Again barring discovery of actual treason on his part, there are only a few ways this thing is going to end:

1) Mueller finding evidence of a cover-up by one or more of Trump's satellites (Most likely Flynn or Kushner) and filing criminal charges against them. Trump could pardon them but likely would not in a futile hope of putting and end to the Opposition's feeding frenzy. The Opposition will continue to harass Trump with innuendo and wild claims that he was guilty himself but that he and the Russians were too clever to leave any tracks. Ivanka will never speak to him again.

2) Mueller finding evidence of improper collusion between one or more of Trump's satellites (Most likely Flynn, Manafort, and/or Page) either filing criminal charges based on some technical violation of a statute that hasn't been applied in decades if ever, or driving them into the shadows in utter disgrace. (I realize Mueller is only supposed to investigate criminal matters, but does anyone believe that if finds any Trump satellite to have engaged in very inappropriate, shady, albeit not illegal, dealings with the Russians that he won't find a way to make this known to the public?) Trump will throw them under the bus in a futile hope of putting and end to the Opposition's feeding frenzy. The Opposition will continue to harass Trump with innuendo and wild claims that he was guilty himself, but he and the Russians were too clever to leave any tracks. Ivanka will still talk to him.

3) Mueller finding solid evidence of Trump being engaged in a cover up will try to get the Supreme Court to rule that a president can be charged with a crime while in office, while the roaring din for Trump's impeachment rises to a level that causes earthquakes in Maryland and Virginia, birds to drop from the sky stone dead, and Rachel Maddow to spontaneously combust on live TV. Fearing for the continuation of certain avian species in the DC area and their political asses, the GOP Elders will visit the White House and tell Trump that he has a choice: Resign or be thrown out of office by Congress. Trump will refuse, the House will impeach him as part of a deal cut between the Leadership of both parties, (while John McCain stands outside of the meeting room screaming obscenities and demanding to be allowed in), that involves Impeachment in return for the Dems calling off the hounds and leaving Pence alone, and then Trump will resign. President Pence will pardon him to end our long national nightmare and The Opposition will immediately switch to attacking Pence with innuendo and wild claims that the pardon reveals he too was guilty or why else would he pardon Trump?! Elizabeth Warren will immediately call for the appointment of a Special Counsel to investigate the obvious crimes of Pence.

Notice that Mueller announcing on national TV that his investigation has turned up no evidence of criminal wrong doing by Trump or any of his satellites, and that he is shutting it down rather than wasting any more taxpayer dollars, is not on the list. This isn't because I am certain that Trump and/or any of his satellites are guilty of something criminal, but because not a single one of these investigations has ever ended with such a finding and one way or the other Mueller will find a Scooter Libby, even if he has to entrap him.


Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:03 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:

OLralloy loves the Gestapo.


You should step away from your computer, get a drink of water and then return and take a look at what you wrote. If you're not embarrassed by it, you're drunk, so try it again in the morning after you have a cup of java and a couple of extra-strength Tylenol.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:23 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Well, my basic point here has been that this is a hot mess with no easy solution. The responses you make all seem to assume that there are a great many ways to completely resolve the problems in very simple fashion.
I guess we just disagree.

Firing the special prosecutor would lead to a continuous Democratic temper tantrum calling for a new special prosecutor. I have no problem ignoring Democratic temper tantrums, but...

Pardoning someone ends the possibility of prosecution period. There is nothing that the Democrats can do to overturn a pardon. They may whine for awhile, but nothing that they can do will undo that pardon.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:26 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
dream on. It would be instant and compelling evidence of obstruction of justice,

Wrong. Pardons are not evidence of obstruction of justice.


MontereyJack wrote:
and would ignite a bipartisan firestorm of condemnation lfar behyopnd the present growing groundswell of condemnation..

If the Democrats throw a temper tantrum and that surrendering coward McCain joins them, we can always give them some pacifiers until they settle down.


MontereyJack wrote:
He should tryk it. It would be the last stupid mistake he would make in office.

Democratic temper tantrums are not going to remove Trump from office.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:28 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
Ford pardoned Nixon on the grounds that it would be in the best interests of the country to end the ongoing obsession with Watergate that was greatly interfering with pursuit of solutions to more important problems facing the country.

The voters seems to accept and be satisfied with that, but ONLY because Nixon was out of office. Trump could do the same by letting Pence take over, I suppose.

But it would never have worked for Nixon if he simply tried to pardon himself and continue to hold power. It wouldn't work for Trump either, in my view. It wouldn't make the issue "just go away."

I think there is an unwarranted sense of jeopardy here because the Republicans let the Democrats get away with lynching Nixon over imaginary obstruction charges. Trump has an easy defense in the simple fact that exercising discretion over whether to pursue a case is not obstruction of justice.

If there were pardons it would immediately and permanently end all legal jeopardy, and end all White House distractions over fear of prosecution. Don't discount the value of getting the White House out from under the fear of legal jeopardy. Ending that distraction would be quite beneficial.

After such pardons, the only thing anyone could do against Trump is hold Congressional hearings and a potential impeachment.

If Trump and other Republicans simply pointed out that an exercise of prosecutorial discretion is not obstruction, there wouldn't be anywhere that Congress could go with that.

The really nice things about facts is that Liberals can't refute them.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:30 pm
@layman,
layman wrote:
The best thing for Trump to do, assuming Moeller accuses him of obstruction of justice, might be to just flatly deny it, and assert that he looks forward to confronting the bogus charges in open court when he leaves office. Until that time, he intends to serve the American people as he was elected to do.

Would he then be convicted of "high crimes and misdemeanors" by 2/3 of the Senate? I doubt it, just like Clinton wasn't convicted. He probably wouldn't even be impeached. The rationale would be that he's entitled to a presumption of innocence until such time as he's actually convicted of a crime.

That might work. But we still need to protect everyone else who is harmed by this witch hunt.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:31 pm
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
OLralloy loves the Gestapo.

The only gestapo-like activity here is the Democrats trying to convict innocent people of fictitious crimes.
0 Replies
 
layman
 
  -2  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:46 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Well, we'll see. Many thought Moeller would be objective and fair, but you have to doubt that now, with Comey involved and Moeller wanting to investigate THAT.

If Moeller has any integrity, he will voluntarily recuse himself--at least from every aspect of any investigation/prosecution where Comey vs. Trump is at issue. If he doesn't, that certainly tells me something. He hasn't yet, so.....

The "one world government" quote from Moeller that Gunga posted does disturb me--I haven't checked to see if it's accurate. He's definitely a political animal if he believes that ****.
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:50 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
He'd better hurry up. There are so many scandals piling up, Trump doesn't have much time left in office. And it's getting worse-they're now looking into Trump's financial dealings and brought on a prosecutor who specializes in money laundering and financial crimes. That stuff is going to make Trump's obstruction of justice look like a pair of doctored parking tickets.

Another admission that this isn't about Russia at all. The Democrats are just trying to see who they can convict on any trivial offense.

Pardons will easily make this witch hunt go away.

And Trump is going to be our President for the next eight years. (The Republicans are going to hold the White House for the next twenty.)
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:51 pm
@Blickers,
Blickers wrote:
Manafort got paid millions by the Kremlin and he never reported it. Charges are being investigated. Also being investigated is the fact that Manafort signed a contract with one of Putin's operatives to promote Russian interests in the US and he never told anyone. Which means Congressional and Senate committees have every justification to look at this and investigate more.

No chance this is just about failing to register as a foreign agent. There's a ton of stuff here, and it has only begun to unravel.

Wrong. It is not even remotely illegal to work for Putin and promote his interests so long as one first registers as a foreign agent.

Other than the failure to register as a foreign agent, not one thing that you mentioned here is a crime.

And if the witch hunt tries to abuse prosecutorial discretion and prosecute him over that, a pardon will make short work of the prosecution.


Blickers wrote:
What is clearly IN evidence is that Attorney General Sessions lied to the committee confirming his appointment to that office that he never met the Russian ambassador, then admitted later the testimony was not the truth-AFTER the media found out Sessions had met the Russian ambassador.

I disagree that there is evidence of that.


Blickers wrote:
Then ANOTHER Sessions meeting with the Russian ambassador was discovered.

Would this be the alleged meeting that actually never happened?


Blickers wrote:
Keep repeating these silly legal "defenses" that are being shot full of holes every night on the news if it makes you feel good.

What legal defense of mine do you believe has been shot full of holes?

I'm prepared to defend my ideas from any attack. If you think you've heard a good TV argument against something that I've posted, go ahead and relay that TV argument and I'll address it.


Blickers wrote:
Trump goes down-soon. And maybe Pence as well.

Trump will be our President for eight full years. And the Republicans will hold the White House for the next twenty years.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:54 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
Trump pardoning himself wouldn't work for Trump anymore than it would have worked for Nixon.

I question this. A pardon would immediately and irrevocably end all legal jeopardy. The special prosecutor would become harmless.

I do recognize that it may fire up Congressional hearings. But I see that as a massive improvement over having to deal with unending criminal prosecutions, especially since Trump has a ready argument as to his innocence.

It is a fact that exercising discretion over whether to pursue a case is not obstruction of justice. It is a fact that the Constitution gives the President power over 100% of the executive branch.

If, post-pardon, Democrats choose to ignore that reality and throw a tantrum, most Republicans are going to look at those facts and side with Trump.

It is simply hard to argue against facts.

Blanket pardons sound like a pretty good way to minimize this problem to me, so long as they are accompanied by sound legal arguments that there was no crime here and the prosecutions were a witch hunt.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -3  
Thu 15 Jun, 2017 10:59 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:
2) Mueller finding evidence of improper collusion between one or more of Trump's satellites (Most likely Flynn, Manafort, and/or Page) either filing criminal charges based on some technical violation of a statute that hasn't been applied in decades if ever, or driving them into the shadows in utter disgrace. (I realize Mueller is only supposed to investigate criminal matters, but does anyone believe that if finds any Trump satellite to have engaged in very inappropriate, shady, albeit not illegal, dealings with the Russians that he won't find a way to make this known to the public?) Trump will throw them under the bus in a futile hope of putting and end to the Opposition's feeding frenzy. The Opposition will continue to harass Trump with innuendo and wild claims that he was guilty himself, but he and the Russians were too clever to leave any tracks. Ivanka will still talk to him.

There is no such thing as improper collusion with the Russians. Collusion with the Russians is by definition not improper. That's why we allow people to register as a foreign agent and do such things.

Flynn and Manafort did fail to register as a foreign agent, and will probably be prosecuted over that. Hopefully they will be pardoned.

It is already more than clear that Trump himself was not colluding, so zero danger that something like that will ever be discovered.


Finn dAbuzz wrote:
3) Mueller finding solid evidence of Trump being engaged in a cover up will try to get the Supreme Court to rule that a president can be charged with a crime while in office, while the roaring din for Trump's impeachment rises to a level that causes earthquakes in Maryland and Virginia, birds to drop from the sky stone dead, and Rachel Maddow to spontaneously combust on live TV. Fearing for the continuation of certain avian species in the DC area and their political asses, the GOP Elders will visit the White House and tell Trump that he has a choice: Resign or be thrown out of office by Congress. Trump will refuse, the House will impeach him as part of a deal cut between the Leadership of both parties, (while John McCain stands outside of the meeting room screaming obscenities and demanding to be allowed in), that involves Impeachment in return for the Dems calling off the hounds and leaving Pence alone, and then Trump will resign. President Pence will pardon him to end our long national nightmare and The Opposition will immediately switch to attacking Pence with innuendo and wild claims that the pardon reveals he too was guilty or why else would he pardon Trump?! Elizabeth Warren will immediately call for the appointment of a Special Counsel to investigate the obvious crimes of Pence.

Mueller clearly intends to accuse Trump of obstruction of justice, even though an official exercising discretion over whether to pursue a case is hardly obstruction.

I can't see the Republicans ever agreeing to remove Trump so long as someone points out to them the fact that such an exercise in discretion isn't obstruction.
0 Replies
 
 

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