192
   

monitoring Trump and relevant contemporary events

 
 
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:07 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
In general Brits and Canadians seem to be A-OK with their healthcare systems. Fine and dandy. I'm sure there are some aspects they don't like but nothing is perfect.
Not just us. This is true everywhere. I know of not single instance in the advanced nations where a political party has headed to an election promising to get rid of the existing medical insurance systems and moving to a system such as the US had/has. They haven't run on such a platform because they know what will happen in that election they are looking towards.

And this cannot be passed off through the expedient, "Well people are always scared of change". When Obamacare was put into place, the majority of citizens disapproved. But it was not a significant majority and Obamacare had been under full and sustained assault in right wing media for years before it became law. Now, some time after implementation, the majority preference is to not repeal the bill and not to drastically alter it such that people's lives and well-being are not again put in greater jeopardy.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:10 pm
@blatham,
The Democrats were very clever with Obamacare.

It was always doomed to fail (as it has) but they front loaded opiates for the masses: Pre-exisitng condition coverage and eternal coverage for sloven children.

MontereyJack
 
  3  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:15 pm
@blatham,
Precisely. NO ONE in the rest of the developed world wants a system like the US had preObamacare, for good reason. Single payer systems, (oh shut up Oralloy,that's what they're called) work better and are MUCH cheaper than the US system.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:21 pm
@MontereyJack,
I try not to make this argument but here I can't help myself...move to one of the enlightened nations in the developed world if you think they have it so much better than we do.

At some point in your life your mother must have admonished you, "If your friend Joey jumped off a bridge would you?"

America doesn't follow, it leads.

camlok
 
  -2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:21 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
You specifically ignored everything blatham described in favor of some lame things grasped out of thin air.

Why are you so dishonest, Finn?
-----------

Listen to these USA doctors explode all the myths that you folks cling to.

Quote:



Is national health insurance ‘socialized medicine’?

No. Socialized medicine is a system in which doctors and hospitals work for and draw salaries from the government. Doctors in the Veterans Administration and the Armed Services are paid this way. The health systems in Great Britain and Spain are other examples. But in most European countries, Canada, Australia and Japan they have socialized health insurance, not socialized medicine. The government pays for care that is delivered in the private (mostly not-for-profit) sector. This is similar to how Medicare works in this country. Doctors are in private practice and are paid on a fee-for-service basis from government funds. The government does not own or manage medical practices or hospitals.

The term socialized medicine is often used to conjure up images of government bureaucratic interference in medical care. That does not describe what happens in countries with national health insurance where doctors and patients often have more clinical freedom than in the U.S., where bureaucrats attempt to direct care.


Won't single payer bankrupt the U.S.?

No, single payer will actually save money by slashing wasteful bureaucracy and adopting proven-effective cost controls like fee schedules, global budgets for hospitals, and negotiating drug prices with pharmaceutical companies. The savings - over $500 billion per year on overhead alone - are more than enough to cover all the uninsured. It turns out that it is much more expensive to keep patients away from health care in our current fragmented, market-based system than to provide care to all under an administratively simple single payer system.

Administrative overhead (also known as "transaction costs") consumes one-third of current health spending in the U.S., a much higher share than in Canada or other nations. A recent paper on hospital administrative costs found that they consume 25 percent of the budgets of U.S. hospitals, compared to 12 percent in Canada and Scotland. Reducing hospital administrative costs to Canadian levels would save $150 billion a year alone.

Over the long-term, controlling the rise in health inflation saves even more money. Without reform, the U.S. is headed towards spending 20 percent of our GDP on health care within a decade (twice as much as other nations with universal coverage), even as we leave 27 million people uninsured and tens of millions more underinsured.


Won’t this result in rationing like in Canada?

The U.S. already rations care. Rationing in U.S. health care is based on income: if you can afford care, you get it; if you can’t, you don’t. A recent study found that 45,000 Americans die every year because they don’t have health insurance. Many more skip treatments that their insurance company refuses to cover. That’s rationing. Other countries do not ration in this way.

If there is this much rationing, why don’t we hear about it? And if other countries ration less, why do we hear about them? The answer is that their systems are publicly accountable, and ours is not. Problems with their health care systems are aired in public; ours are not. For example, in Canada, when waits for care emerged in the 1990s, Parliament hotly debated the causes and solutions. Most provinces have also established formal reporting systems on waiting lists, with wait times for each hospital posted on the Internet. This public attention has led to recent falls in waits there.

In U.S. health care, no one is ultimately accountable for how the system works. No one takes full responsibility. Rationing in our system is carried out covertly through financial pressure, forcing millions of individuals to forgo care or to be shunted away by caregivers from services they can’t pay for.

The rationing that takes place in U.S. health care is unnecessary. A number of studies (notably a General Accounting Office report in 1991 and a Congressional Budget Office report in 1993) show that there is more than enough money in our health care system to serve everyone if it were spent wisely. Administrative costs are at 31% of U.S. health spending, far higher than in other countries’ systems. These inflated costs are due to our failure to have a publicly financed, universal health care system. We spend about twice as much per person as Canada or most European nations, and still deny health care to many in need. A national health program could save enough on administration to assure access to care for all Americans, without rationing.

http://www.pnhp.org/facts/single-payer-faq#socialized
blatham
 
  4  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
The US has followed george's "dream" with great success for much of its history.
Workers compensation laws were in effect in the late 20s (in all but four states). The Depression brought in social welfare programs. Progressive taxation was instituted in 1862. OSHA was set up in 1971 but workplace safety regulations were put into law in NY following the Shirtwaist Fire in 1911 (later expanded federally).

America came to its present level of power and prosperity during the period where such social programs and redistributive taxation policies were in place.
camlok
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:22 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Jesus, Finn, you go from lame to right out in space looniness beyond belief.

You don't really consider that you made any argument, I know you don't. How long will it take you to recover from this posting. Good dog almighty!
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  0  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:23 pm
@camlok,
camlok wrote:



Why are you so dishonest, Finn?
-----------




Because it gives me a thrill.
camlok
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:26 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Take a deep breath, Finn, relax, another deep breath. Two or three more, that's good.

Now try again with something that resembles Finn dAbuzz.
0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:28 pm
@blatham,
You fail to appreciate degree.

There have been progressive policies that have generally benefited America but none of them approximated what was going on in Europe.

It's not all about one or the other as you would like us to believe.

Throughout the time you cite, America was far less centrally controlled than the rest of the world and far more prosperous.
glitterbag
 
  2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:29 pm
I simply can't. It's too easy.
blatham
 
  3  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:31 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Well we've long ago established I and all my fellow conservatives have no integrity so this was to be expected.
You could have simply clarified who you deemed to be the movement conservative leaders you referenced. There was nothing untoward in me asking you for this clarification. I was interested in what individuals you felt were in this category. Then you suggested I was demanding that you "perform" which was a weird response to a pretty straight forward question.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:34 pm
@glitterbag,
Can't what?

Be a fool?

Yes that's apparently too easy for you.
Finn dAbuzz
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:36 pm
@blatham,
Fair enough

Quote:
I'll get back to you and in the meantime, tell us who are the the leaders of the liberal movement.

That's a tough question for me as I've not studied the rise of progressive/liberal thought in the US. The womens' movement, Al Smith, the union movement, the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, FDR, Kennedy, LBJ would be key figures or dynamics. Here in Canada, a key figure (responsible for our medical system) was Tommy Douglas (Keiffer Sutherland's grandfather, as it happens).

My study has centered on the rise of movement conservatism in the US, thus my interest in who you considered key figures.
camlok
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:36 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
More deep breaths, Finn. Come on, you can do it.
0 Replies
 
camlok
 
  -1  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Fair enough

I'll get back to you ...


Great! Am I next?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:37 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Quote:
Throughout the time you cite, America was far less centrally controlled than the rest of the world and far more prosperous.
In what ways was it less "centrally controlled" than Canada? England? Australia?
0 Replies
 
MontereyJack
 
  4  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:42 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
That's more bullcrap, Finn. America basically got it's start in the late eighteenth and early nineteenth century by ripping off and copying //british tech. Until around the Civil War we were to put it bluntly stealing other people's work, until we got sufficient base and started doing our own work (very much the way ?China is doing with out tech today, tho now they're starting to excel us in some areas). We were smart enough to look around and see what other people were doing better and not too proud to not adopt it for ourselves.We've fallen far behind the leading edge in health care by any rational standards, and it's time to look around and realize the rest of the world is WAY ahead of us.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 10:49 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Sorry, I screwed up there.
0 Replies
 
lmur
 
  4  
Sun 4 Jun, 2017 11:12 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
Finn dAbuzz wrote:

Fair enough

Quote:
I'll get back to you and in the meantime, tell us who are the the leaders of the liberal movement.

That's a tough question for me as I've not studied the rise of progressive/liberal thought in the US. The womens' movement, Al Smith, the union movement, the civil rights movement, the gay rights movement, FDR, Kennedy, LBJ would be key figures or dynamics. Here in Canada, a key figure (responsible for our medical system) was Tommy Douglas (Keiffer Sutherland's grandfather, as it happens).

My study has centered on the rise of movement conservatism in the US, thus my interest in who you considered key figures.


How did this happen? It aappears from this post that blatham and Finn dAbuzz are operating from one account!
0 Replies
 
 

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