Reasons for optimism

@blatham,

blatham wrote:

If you have a desire or intention to play this straight and with integrity, then I'll engage you in the matter. But I need to know first off whether you know about this lady and her family. What I'm asking is a simple question that requires only a "yes" or "no" response. What you are asking will require substantially more effort on my part. I need to know whether such effort will be worth my time.

Blatham here exhibits a rather unpleasant tendency, which I have observed on several occasions, to rather arrogantly demand from others specific answers to narrowly defined questions, based perhaps on the strange belief that he is empowered to do so, or set the tone and agenda on this (or any) forum for what others do or write. The behavior is not only rude , it may be indicative of some other deep seated issues. We're here to express our opinions and perhaps to debate topical issues, and we all have the same status. No one here is empowered to set the tome, or agenda of the discussion or to demand particular responses from others.

When I read Blatham's tirades about the supposed authoritarianisn (or totalitarianism as he often suggests) of conservatives and Republicans, I generally think first of the obvious contradiction in the benavior of Progressives who really do seek to exercise totalitarian control of most aspects of our lives, and the obvious Authoritarianism of our current president and his oberreach of executive powers. After that I recall this strange aspect of Blatham's behavior, and wonder if he understands anything of which he writes.

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

When I read Blatham's tirades about the supposed authoritarianisn (or totalitarianism as he often suggests) of conservatives and Republicans, I generally think first of the obvious contradiction in the benavior of Progressives who really do seek to exercise totalitarian control of most aspects of our lives, and the obvious Authoritarianism of our current president and his oberreach of executive powers. After that I recall this strange aspect of Blatham's behavior, and wonder if he understands anything of which he writes.

I think I understand, eh, George? It's pretty simple, really. Telling everyone else what to do is "bad" if you're the one listening, but "good" if you're the one doin the tellin. I would guess that holds true for a good 80-90% of the population. It's not really a "minority" viewpoint.

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@georgeob1,

Well, there's certainly no question that asking "Have you heard of the DeVos family previously?" is a request far beyond the pale. And then, if such a such a question is avoided, for me to then not further engage the other party, that is the very height of totalitarianism.

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@blatham,

The question is OK. It's the demand I was addressing.

I think we disagree on the meaning of the word , 'totalitarianism'. For me the reference is to a regime or political movement that seeks to address or govern every aspect of people's lives, and not just the public behaviors to which most government's confine themselves.

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@georgeob1,

Quote:

The question is OK. It's the demand I was addressing.

I don't get the problem. The only consequence for the fellow was that I wouldn't bother to engage him if he didn't answer that simple question. Not terribly oppressive.

Quote:

'totalitarianism'. For me the reference is to a regime or political movement that seeks to address or govern every aspect of people's lives

There's a fair point here in that totalitarianism and authoritarianism are normally defined somewhat differently. But that's not such a simple matter and regimes of the sort manifest differently one to another.

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@layman,

layman wrote:

I think I understand, eh, George? It's pretty simple, really. Telling everyone else what to do is "bad" if you're the one listening, but "good" if you're the one doin the tellin. I would guess that holds true for a good 80-90% of the population. It's not really a "minority" viewpoint.

I agree the tendency is very human, and most of us are inclined to do it occasionally. However, it is something most of us also restrain out of consideration for others. Most of us also believe that politicasl systems inclined to a lot of that kind of authoritarian behavior are thmselves dangerous and repellant.

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

@revelette and @snood

This family, along with a few other very wealthy and politically extreme families like the Bradley's, Coors, Olins, Scaifes, Kochs provided most of the seed money to build and expand radical right wing institutions in America. ...

These people and others like them came out of rather old ideological roots the precede even Goldwater (the John Birch Society didn't just drop down from the sky).

Well, Blathy, turns out that you end up writing you long-winded essay without even a slight reference to me, eh? I wasn't really all that important after all, was I?

"John Birch Society," eh? Kinda like the KKK wasn't it? Who knew that poor Betsy was a raving KKK Grand Wizard (or whatever they call themselves). I really needed the enlightenment which that nebulous attempt to smear a person through some vague combination of "guilt by association," innuendo, and insinuation that you spewed out there provided. Thanks for your kind help, even if I was excluded from those you intended to benefit from it.

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@george
You got a doctorate in physics. This would have followed your dissertation, I presume. How did that proceed?

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@blatham,

blatham wrote:

There's a fair point here in that totalitarianism and authoritarianism are normally defined somewhat differently. But that's not such a simple matter and regimes of the sort manifest differently one to another.

I agree, many shades and combinations of both can be found in history.

It is worthy of note that conservatrism and progressiveism differ in precisely the degree to which each believes government should interfere with the way we conduct our lives; conservatives generally wanting less and progressives more.

Apparent contradictions abound, in that progressives often demand protections for behaviors conservatives see as repellant while conservatives demand protections for more traditional institutions and behaviors. All, of course, reflective of the many contradictions in human nature.

The wise see this and restrain the dogmatism that might otherwise infect their thoughts and expressions of them.

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@blatham,

What is your question? The dissertation was on a theoretical aspect of Fluid Mechanics involving unstable turbulent flows of viscous fluids..

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

The dissertation was on a theoretical aspect of Fluid Mechanics involving unstable turbulent flows of viscous fluids..

Heh. Sorry George, but that sentence brings this observation to mind: "An expert (specialist) is a person who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing." Somebody (not me) said that.

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@layman,

Quote:

OK. So what's the problem with that? Is it that, as an atheist, you want to force kids to be free from prayer in schools, etc.?

Atheism is itself a theistic position. Do the atheists want to "establish" their religion in and out of state-related functions? Do you want to make it mandatory that the " government stick their big noses into it?"

I do not want to be forced to send a grandchild of mine to a school which might teach some doctrine I do not believe in. Schools should be secular; free of all forms of theism unless it is taught academically rather than literal. If children want to pray, they can pray. No one is keeping anyone from praying. On the other hand, I would not want a prayer forced on a child they do not believe in.

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@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

I do not want to be forced to send a grandchild of mine to a school which might teach some doctrine I do not believe in. Schools should be secular; free of all forms of theism...

Hmm, you're kinda hard to follow here, Rev. I don't think you answered my question, but let's leave that aside for now.

Is there some threat that you perceive from private schools that will "force" your grandchildren to learn some doctrine you don't believe in? What's the connection? Do you think the proposition that parents (and children) have an "option" really means that they will be forced to go to private schools?

Suppose you don't believe in the "doctrine" of evolution? Do you want to compel public schools to refrain from teaching that?

You say: "Schools should be secular; free of all forms of theism... " Do you mean all schools or just public schools? If you mean ALL schools, then maybe you did in fact answer my question.

1 Reply

@layman,

layman wrote:

georgeob1 wrote:

The dissertation was on a theoretical aspect of Fluid Mechanics involving unstable turbulent flows of viscous fluids..

Heh. Sorry George, but that sentence brings this observation to mind: "An expert (specialist) is a person who knows more and more about less and less until he knows absolutely everything about nothing." Somebody (not me) said that.

I generally agree. Knowing a lot about one or two narrowly defined things doesn't alone imply much outside that domain. The process of learning often involves some acquired broader understanding, but that isn't always the case. For most humans the illusion of knowing has greater reach than the fact of it, and we all must guard against it. My experience is that wisdom and understanding grow only when we question ourselves. and, even then, only through trial and error.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

I do not want to be forced to send a grandchild of mine to a school which might teach some doctrine I do not believe in. Schools should be secular; free of all forms of theism unless it is taught academically rather than literal. If children want to pray, they can pray. No one is keeping anyone from praying. On the other hand, I would not want a prayer forced on a child they do not believe in.

I can undersatand your desire to project your own prejudices and beliefs to subsequent generations of your family. However what gives you the right to requires others to accept them? Are you suggesting that everyone should be required to send their children to state run schools teaching the currently fashionable doctrines of political correctitude?

Happily in this country we still enjoy more freedom than closet authoritarians, such as yourself, would permit.

1 Reply

@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

For most humans the illusion of knowing has greater reach than the fact of it...My experience is that wisdom and understanding grow only when we question ourselves. and, even then, only through trial and error.

Very astute, George. That brings to mind a couple of other quotes that I think reflect the same general idea.

1. "Education, n.: That which discloses to the wise and disguises from the foolish their lack of understanding." (Ambrose Bierce)

2. “The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser people so full of doubts.” (Bertrand Russell).

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@georgeob1,

There is currently a movement which would like privatize all schools which means public schools would not be an option. And no I would not want any child to go to a school which teaches any religious doctrine much less one I believe in. Never even said anything like that.

If parents wants to send a child to a private school, more power to them. I just do not want my tax dollars paying for schools teaching religious doctrines of which parents would have no control over. I am betting you two would not be sanguine about it if it is was a private Muslim school we would have pay for out of our tax dollars to send children there.

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@layman,

Good stuff. Is the Bierce quote from his "Devil's dictionary"? I know enough about Bierce's life and works to be fascinated, but there's more for me to read. Thanks for the inspiration.

1 Reply

@revelette2,

revelette2 wrote:

There is currently a movement which would like privatize all schools which means public schools would not be an option.

Really? Is this a strong "movement?" I've never heard of it. What groups does this include? You have any links which would explain this movement?

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@georgeob1,

georgeob1 wrote:

Good stuff. Is the Bierce quote from his "Devil's dictionary"?

Yeah, it is. A lot of wisdom, presented in humorous form, in that compilation.

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