24
   

Reasons for optimism

 
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:45 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It appears to me Trump is winning this game. He has successfully created a fairly effective means of bypassing the hostile media, and making his voice heard. Meanwhile sales of the New York Times are falling fast. The action on both sides will, of course, continue but the last two rounds are Trump's.

"The hostile media". "sales of the NYT are falling fast".
You've become Donald Trump. Congrats. I can't imagine the level of personal pride you must feel.

But more seriously, such an approach to the press is a dependable signature of the authoritarian/totalitarian. That this is an accurate description of Trump's behavior is underlined by his response to protesters at rallies or on the street where he is denounced. It's underlined by his response to the cast of Hamilton. His constant repetition of the adjective "crooked" or "rigged" is not an accurate claim but rather a propaganda device. What he's doing here is seriously destructive to America. And you are adopting the framing he forwards - "I/we are winners and that's all that counts. Disagree and I'll crush you".
blatham
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 11:55 am
@georgeob1,
Quote:
What familiarity do you have with "leadership at this level"?
What familiarity do you have with the classical period in Rome? What familiarity does a historian have about anything he/she hasn't lived in or been a key part of? What do the vast majority of citizens who voted for or against Trump have with leadership at that level? Whatever you are trying to suggest with that rhetorical question isn't helping you think clearly.

Quote:
I suspect a trace of narcissism is a common element in leaders. Do you believe that Obama is a narcissist?

Every human individual is exactly the same in all personality traits? You sometimes get mad. Charles Manson sometimes got mad. You and I tell untruths every day (sociological research confirms we all lie sometimes) and another everyday liar was Bernie Madoff so he ought to be out of jail immediately because he's the same as us?

Quote:
I see a good deal of evidence suggesting a cooly calculating strategistin some of Trump's actions..

Some, sure. And some not, being more like reactive responses, sure. But so what? Goebbels was strategic and cool. Stalin was strategic and very cool.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:01 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
No deceit and I don't take such suggestions kindly. As for the rest look to yourself.

Really, you need to go back and read what was said. I made two related comments, the first was clearly satirical, the second was merely a statement that I don't use the thumb up/down feature, that I understand how it is amenable to manipulation because it can become a means to promulgate something false (though that's not relevant on this site), but that even though I don't use the feature myself, I can find value in watching how others use it.

That's all I said. Your suggestions are a result of not reading carefully or something else less ethical. I'd be delighted if it is the first.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:16 pm
A story that broke this morning concerned an IRS submission from the Trump Foundation (ostensibly a charitable entity) which admits to funds received having gone inappropriately to some individual(s) involved. The same form also admitted to similar inappropriate transfers in the past. At this point, exactly what is described here is not known. But both are apparently admissions of illegality.

As Steve Benen notes:
Quote:
Take a moment to imagine the feeding frenzy that would exist right now if, just two weeks after the election, the Clinton Foundation quietly told the IRS it broke the law.

Then imagine the scale of the congressional investigation that would follow.

Yes indeedy. And how close to zero are the chances that this new Congress will proceed to empower any panel to investigate these matters now that so much power is in their hands, power they do not wish diminished under a leader they do not wish to see in disrepute?
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 12:43 pm
For those who might be interested (hrumph) a very interesting and too short interview of David Remnick by Rachel Maddow. It's really really good.
http://www.msnbc.com/rachel-maddow/watch/trump-win-radically-alters-obama-s-post-presidency-plans-814911555807

Remnick is editor at the New Yorker and he's just written a big piece on traveling with Obama pre election. You can look that up if you want. But let me insist that you watch this 3 minute interview of Larry David done by Remnick. It is just wonderful! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8fM0DaJ1yIY
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:05 pm
@blatham,
the tweets coming out of Mr. Trump's current meeting with the New York Times are interesting/entertaining

he seems to have forgotten a good chunk of what he ran on
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:06 pm
@blatham,
blatham wrote:

Early this morning, Trump cancelled his meeting with the NYT


he's there right now

nous sommes amusé
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:12 pm
@georgeob1,
You know, the media is hated a bit more than the DNC ands little less than Congress... If Trump finds a way to hand them their overpaid, elitist asses, he may win some fans.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:17 pm
@blatham,
I take no particular pride in any of these events. I am instead an interested observer and I, fairly continuously, upgrade my understanding and evaluation of these still unfolding events.

I have my own reasons for opposing the failed policies of the current administration and the promise of more coming from the now departed Clintons. You don't agree, but that has nothing to do with the Trump issues you are putting before us here.

Trump is very clearly challenging a demonstrably hostile media erstablishment which has shown no inclination to dispassionately evaluate his proposals or his candidacy. He has effectively used extensive personal appearances and social media to partly bypass the press establishment, and is now challenging them to reevaluate their behavior. I believe that, in the present circumstances, this is rational behavior on Trump's part. You appear to see this as something intrinsically evil or dangerous. I don't agree, and note that you routinely treat equivalent behaviors from those whose political views you share as benign and inherently good.

Trump won the Republican nomination and later the election in part by bypassing the media and creating his own channels with a large segment of voters. His behavior in doing this was deliberately disruptive, and sometimes vulgar and even outrageous. I doubt seriously that he could have overcome a seriously divided but entrenched Republican establishment, and later a well-funded and well organized incumbent Party that enjoyed the unambiguous support of most of the media establishment any other way. To what extent his behavior in doing this was instinctive or, alternatively, cooly caluclated, I certainly don't know (and neither do you). However that this was indeed a rationally effective strategy is beyond doubt.

Though you apparently sneered at the suggestion the New York Times is indeed experiencing a continuing decline in circulation and, it seems, the credibility it once enjoyed with readers, it remains true.

Whether Trump is a closet authoritarian is something that remains to be seen. I think you tend to view anyone who opposes your particular line of political thought as a Fascist, and anyone whose line you favor as utterly democratic and benign. That is false and it's your problem, not mine or the world's. Barack Obama has lilely been the most remote and authoritarian occupant of the White House we have seen in over a century.

blatham
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:21 pm
@ehBeth,
I'm just going through Maggie's tweets now.

He's dedicating a fair bit of time listing out all the people who "love" him and all the biggies who are phoning him. This man is such a mess.
maporsche
 
  3  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:23 pm
@Lash,
Lash wrote:

You know, the media is hated a bit more than the DNC ands little less than Congress... If Trump finds a way to hand them their overpaid, elitist asses, he may win some fans.


I have a feeling that he was quickly able to win you over...
maporsche
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:24 pm
Can people stop complaining about thumbs up/down.

I find myself giving a thumbs down to every one of those posts, I just can't help it.
0 Replies
 
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:34 pm
@blatham,
I liked the bit about not wanting to hurt the Clintons.
blatham
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:36 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
Whether Trump is a closet authoritarian is something that remains to be seen. I think you tend to view anyone who opposes your particular line of political thought as a Fascist, and anyone whose line you favor as utterly democratic and benign. That is false and it's your problem, not mine or the world's. Barack Obama has lilely been the most remote and authoritarian occupant of the White House we have seen in over a century.

I'm going to tell Pope Francis what you've just said.
georgeob1
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:37 pm
@blatham,
It's OK. He will forgive me.
blatham
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:38 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
I liked the bit about not wanting to hurt the Clintons.

So magnanimous. Even aside from the fact that a President cannot initiate such a thing or manipulate the JD in any such matter.
0 Replies
 
blatham
 
  4  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:39 pm
@georgeob1,
Quote:
It's OK. He will forgive me.

Not after my mother calls him.
ehBeth
 
  2  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:39 pm
@ehBeth,
Quote:
@realDonaldTrump calls NYT "a great great American jewel - world jewel"
ehBeth
 
  1  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:40 pm
all the NYT tweets from the meeting

https://twitter.com/migold/lists/nyt-trump-meeting
georgeob1
 
  0  
Reply Tue 22 Nov, 2016 01:43 pm
@blatham,
The Pope is an Argentine Italian and a Catholic. I am Irish Catholic. Your mother can't touch me. Eat your heart out.
0 Replies
 
 

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