If an employer is racist, he will find way to avoid hiring of Blacks or Jews. And being of partially Jewish origin I would not like myself to have an anti-Semitic employer.
About women: they could be hired to specific projects and take an obligation not to take a pregnancy leave until the project is accomplished.
eoe wrote: Affirmative action addresses the opportunity to achieve the professional skills to compete. The scales have been tipped for so long that to achieve any kind of balance, they had to be tipped the other way for awhile. I'm glad that sozobe wrote about the woman benefitting from affirmative action. The naysayers tend to forget that people of color are not the only ones to benefit.
This is the excellent point that we have to remember when considering affirmative action. How many years has it been since women got the vote? Since the Civil Rights Movement gave some basic rights to African Americans? Not many. I think it takes a long time for ingrained beliefs to change, and they may never happen among those who make choices in schools and hiring places. That's why these minorities must be given the opportunity make up a significant part of the power structure, and thus make social change.
[This is a response to what Tresspassers said, and I'd love to continue but There's also an element of parental involvement, probably a big part of the problem. Involved parents choose good schools. Uninvolved parents complain that no one is educating their kids.[/quote]
The problem with parent involvement is, many of the ones with children at risk are not very literate themselves. They can't help their children with homework, and the ones who try just confuse them more. They are too poor to hire tutors, and no public schools I'm aware of do have after school programs which offer homework help. That's where the $$ should go; into offerring free literacy classes for adults, and free tutoring for at-risk students. Not to mention getting rid of lead paint which still coats some of the old buildings.
[This is a response to what Tresspassers said, and I'd love to continue but There's also an element of parental involvement, probably a big part of the problem. Involved parents choose good schools. Uninvolved parents complain that no one is educating their kids.[/quote]
The problem with parent involvement is, many of the ones with children at risk are not very literate themselves. They can't help their children with homework, and the ones who try just confuse them more. They are too poor to hire tutors, and no public schools I'm aware of do have after school programs which offer homework help. That's where the $$ should go; into offerring free literacy classes for adults, and free tutoring for at-risk students. Not to mention getting rid of lead paint which still coats some of the old buildings.
Additional educational aid for economically underprivileged students of any race is a right thing to do. Those that are capable to have good achievements will not be handicapped by their socio-economic status, and they will be able to compete with others on equal grounds. This may be a good alternative to affirmative action that is racist in its essence.
dream2020
Quote:
The problem with parent involvement is, many of the ones with children at risk are not very literate themselves. They can't help their children with homework, and the ones who try just confuse them more.
That my friend is just propaganda. In the early part of the last century people flooded into this country who were not English conversant and in many instances poorly educated. Yet their children went on to be doctors, lawyer, engineers and etc. I will bring it a little closer, Orientals come into this country with little more than the clothes on their back and they achieve and as far as their children are concerned they have no peers.
What really grates upon my nerves is what do we owe Hispanics who are flooding into this nation or blacks from the Islands or Africa. Why should they be getting preferential treatment, or the benefits of affirmative action? What do we owe them?
Well au1929, I guess you're all for erasing that bs from the Statue of Liberty (bring me your tired, your poor...), changing the words to the national anthem and every other crap song and pledge holding this country up to be the sweet land of liberty. People come here believing that this country can offer them freedom and a better way of life. Are you saying that they are foolish to believe such things about the great US of A?
"And crown thy good with brotherhood from sea to shining sea."
What is it, au, that you're so afraid of losing?
au1929 wrote:
That my friend is just propaganda.
No, it's not propanganda. I'm talking about the parents in the schools where I teach, working class Anglos, who can't help their kids do anything past 3rd grade work. Somewhere along the line, I suppose parrallelling the explosion in higher technology, the bar was raised in education, and these people (who may not have been keen students to begin with) are way behind the times.
In the early part of the last century people flooded into this country who were not English conversant and in many instances poorly educated. Yet their children went on to be doctors, lawyer, engineers and etc.
I will bring it a little closer, Orientals come into this country with little more than the clothes on their back and they achieve and as far as their children are concerned they have no peers.
Those were different times. People could actually make a living by hard manual labor,and send their most gifted child on to a higher education by sacrificing, even at the expense of the less-bright children in the family. The immigrants we have now are doing the same thing, but they are also quite often supporting family back in their own countries, where they have parents and grandparents who would starve without them.
yikes
When will I get the hang of using the quoting thingy? Sorry. I'm a little technologically behind the times myself.
eoe
Don't wave the flag at me with false patriotism. We are not talking about immigrants coming into this country but why when they do should they be afforded special privileges, not afforded to those who came before them. In this country you used to get what you earned now it seems it is stick out your hand and receive manner from heaven.
Equal opportunity - quota systems - affirmative action. Definitions of these terms obviously have many variants.
To start with, I think maybe one of the things au1929 may be referring to is the use of language. When earlier immigrants came, it was necessary - and drilled into their heads - to learn English. That English was the language of the country, and one of the places where it all started. This gave the kids more of an equal opportunity - when they all spoke the same language, at least there was some equal footing. But this really haas to start early, and attitude is important. Attitude of the parents, the schools, trasnlating itself to the kids.
Somewhere we have picked up on a great diversity of attitude, and language skills needed for teaching kids. And I think we have forgotten some very important basics - like feeling education was important - not having education lead to a future as a CEO. Manual labor skills - which should be a source of pride - is looked down upon, so the affirmative action is used as a code word to get into the more soially accepted jobs, rather than affording opportunities for learning many other skills, and a pride in the ability to use them, and a place in the workforce.
Many things involved here - but our national attitudes towards what education means needs changing.
au
I didn't think we were talking about new immigrants originally. Somehow they got thrown into the mix.
I'm talking about American citizens such as you and I, born and bred right here, who, for so many CENTURIES, were doomed from the start based on gender or the color of their skin.
eoe
I guess we got our signals crossed.
I wrote
Quote:What really grates upon my nerves is what do we owe Hispanics who are flooding into this nation or blacks from the Islands or Africa. Why should they be getting preferential treatment, or the benefits of affirmative action? What do we owe them?
My question or complaint if you will is what do we owe recent immigrants People who came here of their own free will no matter what their race. Not those whose ancestors came to this country as slaves? Unless I am greatly mistaken no Hispanic has ever been brought to this country in chains or unwillingly.
eoe
Quote:The problem with parent involvement is, many of the ones with children at risk are not very literate themselves. They can't help their children with homework, and the ones who try just confuse them more.
How many oriental parents do you think can read and write English well enough to help their children? They do however instill in their children the need to learn and excel.
dream2020 wrote:The problem with parent involvement is, many of the ones with children at risk are not very literate themselves. They can't help their children with homework, and the ones who try just confuse them more. They are too poor to hire tutors, and no public schools I'm aware of do have after school programs which offer homework help. That's where the $$ should go; into offerring free literacy classes for adults, and free tutoring for at-risk students. Not to mention getting rid of lead paint which still coats some of the old buildings.
Parents don't have to be rocket scientists to support their kids and push them to excel. Helping a kid with homework can be great, but how about just knowing whether your kid has homework, whether he or she has done the homework, whether or not your kid is in fact showing up in school, knowing your kid's teachers, making sure he or she gets enough sleep and enough to eat...
"Helping a kid with homework can be great, but how about just knowing whether your kid has homework, whether he or she has done the homework, whether or not your kid is in fact showing up in school, knowing your kid's teachers, making sure he or she gets enough sleep and enough to eat..."
simplistic, trite, sophmoric but cute.
au,
You've got me confused with another. That's not my quote.
BTW, Asians are a race of people. Oriental is a style of furniture.
dyslexia wrote:"Helping a kid with homework can be great, but how about just knowing whether your kid has homework, whether he or she has done the homework, whether or not your kid is in fact showing up in school, knowing your kid's teachers, making sure he or she gets enough sleep and enough to eat..."
simplistic, trite, sophmoric but cute.
Make it more complex for me, and I'll tell you if it makes more sense that way, okay?
I love the people who hang out here just to insult others. It keeps things just bristling with energy!
the image you present is one of 1957 Ozzie and Harriett, not the oft times single parent living just above minimum wage with three kids trying to keep food on the table and the rent paid and yet you offer that she has the time to visit the school, get to know the teacher, supervise the homework. Even the two parent family hasboth working to pay the mortgage, the health insurance, the heat bill and keep food on the table. People are doing what they can with what they have. Simplistic images from the covers on Sat evening post are memories that never were. Daydreams of a life that never existed. Yes the image is a nice one and is certainly a feel good way to present life but for the poor and the disenfranchised its unbelievably unreachable. What insults?
dyslexia wrote:the image you present is one of 1957 Ozzie and Harriett, not the oft times single parent living just above minimum wage with three kids trying to keep food on the table and the rent paid and yet you offer that she has the time to visit the school, get to know the teacher, supervise the homework.
Not insults perhaps but certainly assumptions and trite dismissal of the original comment being made. What makes you so sure that the single parent is a "she"?
I was a single parent and managed to find enough time to call my daughter's school, explain my situation to her teachers and get them to send her home with a list of what her homework assignments where every night. I didn't have to supervise the actual homework being done but at the end of the evening I could easily verify that the stack of homework handed to me matched what was on the homework list the teachers provided and then I signed it every night and the list was returned to the school.
In most cases the techers are more than willing to work something out if they know what is going on and will go to extra efforts to see to it that the parents are notified of what is happeneing. It's called communicatiuons. If the parent can't be bothered to initiate it then that is your first clue that they shouldn't be a parent to begin with. The sob stories about how parents "can't find" time to make a phone call are complete BS. Sure, they might not have time TODAY. Or maybe even THIS WEEK. What's the excuse for not calling for 12 years?
we all have experiences that influence our vision, my experieces are as a child welfare social worker.
