Reply
Tue 28 Jan, 2003 10:21 am
Diversity, in our colleges and universities by quota's and forced integration? I do not believe so the only way to achieve that goal is to start at the primary school level. All of our young must be given an equal opportunity at that level. It doesn't matter what the ethnic or racial make up of the school is as long as the goal is achieved and that to teach our young inorder that they may compete on an equal level. As usual, the politicians are treating the symptom not the disease.
Hmm... I'd agree, but I think that making sure that kids truly have an equal opportunity at that level is still extremely complex. There are issues like hunger -- Boomerang, I think, had some startling stats about the correlation of hunger and school performance. There's the participation of parents. There's home circumstances -- violent neighborhoods, etc. About 90% of what we know is through incidental learning, or what we learn when we are NOT sitting at a desk listening to a teacher. So even if that 10% in school is exactly equal for everyone, that doesn't necessarily translate to equal opportunity.
I don't feel it is the responsibility of the school system. The government or society to make up for the failings of the parents. As for the lawless communities, I ask you who makes and keeps those communities as they are? It is time that people face up to their responsibilities.
And the grade-school kids are responsible for their communities...?
I agree with the general premise, really. But I think steps should be taken to assist equal opportunity now, not just in the future when all of these complex problems are solved.
Re: Diversity or intergration by quota.
au1929 wrote: It doesn't matter what the ethnic or racial make up of the school is as long as the goal is achieved and that to teach our young inorder that they may compete on an equal level. As usual, the politicians are treating the symptom not the disease.
Unfortunately, a school that does this gets cornered and gets bad press because someone else DOES use the numbers to try to demonstrate that their interest group isn't getting a fair shake. The schools all take the PC way out and try to avoid "the appearance of.." lest they be accused of being racist, segregationist, etc...
In the legal system you have to be proven guilty. In the court of public opinion you have to prove that you AREN'T guilty...
I'm not sure how to do this, but here's my idea...
Starting as early as is possible, and respecting the wishes of the parents, we should attempt to measure the abilities of every child, and customize learning and development programs to help every person maximize his or her potential in our society.
sozobe
After 40 years or affirmative action, quotas, equal opportunity, PC, social promotions and etc. we still trying to force diversity {integration} in our universities and collages. It is time that the problem be attacked honestly and from the bottom up rather than the top down.
sozobe wrote:Hmm... I'd agree, but I think that making sure that kids truly have an equal opportunity at that level is still extremely complex. There are issues like hunger -- Boomerang, I think, had some startling stats about the correlation of hunger and school performance. There's the participation of parents. There's home circumstances -- violent neighborhoods, etc. About 90% of what we know is through incidental learning, or what we learn when we are NOT sitting at a desk listening to a teacher. So even if that 10% in school is exactly equal for everyone, that doesn't necessarily translate to equal opportunity.
We can create opportunities for people, but we can't live their lives for them.
- TW
Why does it have to be either/ or? (Colleges OR grade schools.) Why not both? And how do you plan to ensure equal opportunity at that level?
I'm not against it, mind you. I just don't see it as a polarization. Address lack of equal opportunity now by allowing Michigan-type preferences. Address lack of opportunity for the future by providing excellent primary school educations to all. Realize that education doesn't exist in a vaccuum -- what of the critical perion from birth to five, to give another example -- and do whatever possible to provide equal opportunity in all possible ways. I just think that doing so is a huge, huge, multi-layered task. Doesn't mean we can't or shouldn't try.
sozobe - We must work at all levels for equal access, not equal outcome.
- TW
Schools are trying to measure the abilities of the children and have special programs for those that are in need. Unfortunately, testing has taken on a life of its own, and the results have been used as 'report cards' for school districts. People are moving into communities where the scores are the highest, causing segregation, and a widening of the standards between districts along socioeconomic lines.
This is a response to what Tresspassers said, and I'd love to continue but I'm at work and have to go now.
TW, sorta. If you give two people access to the same exact test, and one has had a full meal, a good night's sleep, and studied in a nice comfortable couch with birdies twittering outside, while the other hasn't eaten in two days, was fending off rats all night, and studied amidst gunfire and sirens, equal access doesn't mean equal opportunity.
Yes, that's extreme -- hardly suggesting that it's the norm. My point is that there are lots of interwoven strands, and it's overly simplistic to say "here, you took the same test, you had the same opportunity."
dream2020 wrote:Schools are trying to measure the abilities of the children and have special programs for those that are in need. Unfortunately, testing has taken on a life of its own, and the results have been used as 'report cards' for school districts. People are moving into communities where the scores are the highest, causing segregation, and a widening of the standards between districts along socioeconomic lines.
This is a response to what Tresspassers said, and I'd love to continue but I'm at work and have to go now.
I hope you'll check back later when you're home.
The only problem inherent in this (my bold, above) is that failing schools are being kept afloat, instead of being closed and replaced with schools that work.
There's also an element of parental involvement, probably a big part of the problem. Involved parents choose good schools. Uninvolved parents complain that no one is educating their kids.
sozobe - As a society there are certain things we can control and others we can't.
"What we can do, we will try to do." - Mahatma Gandhi
- TW
Just so. I'm all in favor of trying.
sozobe
You can't fix the problem by robbing from Peter to pay Paul. Racism is racism even if it is in a supposed good cause. Equal opportunity should apply to everyone. Preferences are just a form of racism and social welfare.
tw - close and rebuild schools?!?! In this economic climate?
I completely agree with stance of Au1929. Affirmative action is a bad service to those that are supposed to get benefits from it. It deprives them of incentive for self-improvement and necessity to work hard to achieve something tangible. And it is unfair toward people that had a bad luck to be born White Anglo-Saxon Middle-Class Protestants (except the alumni offspring, they enjoy a kind of affirmative action as well).
I'm always curious about what people think Affirmative Action actually is. That the black guy who is lazing around at the back of the class says "hey, I'll think I'll apply to Harvard!" and gets accepted, while the hard-working white guy sitting up front taking notes can't get accepted anywhere? It's not about looking at skin color and just skin color -- all the usual stuff about grades etc. also applies. I don't buy that it "deprives them of incentive."
I have somewhat first-hand experience with this in a slightly different arena. My husband is a phycisist, which has historically been white white white and male male male. He is currently in the job market, and it is understood that if he is in competition with an equally qualified or even slightly lesser qualified woman, the woman will likely get the job. That's how it works.
From our perspective, wanting to get a good job, that sucks. But I've met a lot of these women in physics, and they still experience mind-boggling amounts of discrimination. The pendulum has to swing before it settles into the nice, non-discriminatory middle. And if anyone actually thinks that racism is not still a significant factor in America... well, I'd say I'd get links, but I'd be here all day.
Do you think that slightly less qualified lady may be more useful for the employer than your husband? Why not to make decisions based exclusively on professional skills, and not on any of the inborn features?
Stumble It!
Tweet This
Bookmark on Delicious
Share on Facebook
Share on MySpace