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Kerry wiped the floor with Bush

 
 
parados
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:26 am
Bush's plan
Brand X went on and on about Kerry not having a plan but I am curious about what Bush's plan is.
Could you please tell us what Bush's plan is Brand? Be specific in the way you claim Kerry is not.

As for your "unilateral disarmament" statement. Talk about not understanding the English language. Cutting one weapons program is not disarmament. If you truly think it is then explain how Saddam could have not disarmed since he cut several programs and there was no question about them restarting.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:32 am
To quote Kerry, Bush's plan is "more of the same".
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:37 am
Kerry won.

I think it reasonated to a few people who before that didn't think Kerry had it in him. I don't think that it will matter though in who wins the elections.

I watched it c-span too. The split screen was a wonder. You could see George Bush facial expressions to every single word Kerry said. It was not pretty. To say the least he appeared aggitated at Kerry being able speak at all.

Bush was arrogant without a reason as usual. Once he demanded to speak when it wasn't one of the 30 second things. But what could Lehure (Spell?) do, that was the President acting in such rude manner after all.

The next one I am a little worried about is the one with Cheney and Edwards.
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McGentrix
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:38 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Understood, there, McG, but that doesn't mean Kerry didn't win the debate. Also, it seems maybe you are letting the Republicans define Kerry for you, because your assessment of him doesn't ring true for me. Rather, it sounds like the same old tired Republican party line about liberals wanting to socialize and weaken America.


It's a party line for a reason...

Quote:
To quote Kerry, Bush's plan is "more of the same".


Let's hope so. The economy is in recovery from the .com bust and the attack on 9/11. Unemployment is low, home ownership is up, the country is safer and getting safer with the death of every terrorist.

I would hate to see that end because of kerry.
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panzade
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:41 am
Good summation BrandX...whoever wrote it. "You break it" is vintage Powell and probably originated from Bush Sr's carefully articulated defense on why he didn't topple Saddam. Junior doesn't measure up to Dad.
(adding IMO)
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:45 am
I got interrupted for about 20 minutes, but I graded most of the debate as a debate judge would. Kerry came up with a win on both style and points, mostly because Bush was the typical unpolished Bush who is not so quick on his feet and who also was also dog tired after spending the day with hurricane victims in Florida.

Bush missed at least three really good opportunities to nail Kerry on real substance that might have turned the tide for him. Kerry was unable to catch Bush on anything of substance, but kept hammering away with mostly unchallenged opinion.

Behind the scenes, Joe Lockhart was caught on open microphone unawares saying the Democrat gurus are rating the debate 'a draw'.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:50 am
Foxfyre wrote:
Behind the scenes, Joe Lockhart was caught on open microphone unawares saying the Democrat gurus are rating the debate 'a draw'.


I find that hard to believe as I watched Lockhart talking to MSNBC and he seemed very happy with Kerry's performance and you could tell that he knew Kerry had one. Where did you see that?
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kickycan
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:50 am
It was like watching a college professor debating a not-too-bright high school kid.
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Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 07:56 am
timberlandko wrote:
About all that happened is Kerry managed to stay in the race. That won't be enough.


Excellent post.

Frankly, I'm amazed that the pundits saw the debate as a draw, and those that have given him the nod, have done so, somewhat dismissively, on "style points."

I thought that Bush was at his oratorical worse and that he missed numerous opportunities to score on Kerry. Kerry, on the other hand, looked (for the most part) relaxed and confident, and clearly managed to avoid the sort of gobbledy gook statements he trotted out in his interview with Dianne Sawyer the night before.

From the standpoint of content, I think Kerry was terrible (and not simply because I disagree with most of what he had to say), but a very large measure of the impact of these debates (I've always thought) was the manner in which the debaters come across to the viewers. At least to me, Kerry came across much better than Bush.

Admittedly, I have never been a fan of Bush's "just folks" speaking style and I tend to wince when he drifts off into one of his seemingly interminable pauses, but last night, his performance was probably the worst I've seen. It's one thing to appear to speak from the heart and without skilled rhetorical flourishes, but it's another to simply look tired and at wit's end.

I found myself screaming at the TV for him to shoot back at Kerry on some inane comment he had (artfully) made.

While he did jump on Kerry's bi-lateral solution to North Korea, it was a weak retort consisting of "That's what they want. It won't work." He missed the fantastic opportunity to point out that this was simply another example of Kerry taking an inconsistent position for perceived political gain.
How Kerry who brays about multi-lateralism when the subject is Iraq, can dismiss it in favor of unilateralism (which is what his "bi-lateral" approach actually is) as respects North Korea, is beyond my ken. And, I heard no substantive explanation for why unilateralism with North Korea would work.
Instead it was simply a matter of: "You are for multi-lateral talks and therefore I am for bi-lateral talks."

The one true gaffe I heard Kerry make (The bit about a Global Test for pre-emptive action) was immediately jumped on by Bush, but again in an ineffective manner.

Having said all this, I take heart in three points:

1) There are a lot of Americans who actually prefer Bush's rhetorical style to Kerry's. What some of us see as clumsy, many others see as straight talking.
2) The pundits, generally, have declared the debate an effective draw. Perhaps because they are factoring in #1 more than I have, or because they understand that in reality, all that these debates are are highwire acts where you can't win, unless your opponent falls off the wire.
3) If the press keeps reporting that it was a tie, everyone who didn't watch the debate and a fair number of people who did, will come to believe it was a tie. I'm not thrilled about this dynamic but hope it works in favor of my political position this time around.
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:03 am
Finn wrote:
How Kerry who brays about multi-lateralism when the subject is Iraq, can dismiss it in favor of unilateralism (which is what his "bi-lateral" approach actually is) as respects North Korea, is beyond my ken. And, I heard no substantive explanation for why unilateralism with North Korea would work.
Instead it was simply a matter of: "You are for multi-lateral talks and therefore I am for bi-lateral talks."


Actually, he said you need both bi-lateral and multi-lateral talks. It was Bush that said it had to be one or the other by saying that bi-lateral talks would cause multi-lateral talks to fall apart.
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revel
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:06 am
Quote:
How Kerry who brays about multi-lateralism when the subject is Iraq, can dismiss it in favor of unilateralism (which is what his "bi-lateral" approach actually is) as respects North Korea, is beyond my ken. And, I heard no substantive explanation for why unilateralism with North Korea would work.
Instead it was simply a matter of: "You are for multi-lateral talks and therefore I am for bi-lateral talks."


If the stance that Kerry is inconsistent because it is different than Iraq then the reverse must be true for Bush?

Anyway. I know what Kerry means. North Korea wanted to have talks with us so it would have behooved us to have talks with them considering what was at stake instead of taking the typical school yard approach of doing whatever the opposite is of what the enemy wants.
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Larry434
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:08 am
FreeDuck wrote:
Finn wrote:
How Kerry who brays about multi-lateralism when the subject is Iraq, can dismiss it in favor of unilateralism (which is what his "bi-lateral" approach actually is) as respects North Korea, is beyond my ken. And, I heard no substantive explanation for why unilateralism with North Korea would work.
Instead it was simply a matter of: "You are for multi-lateral talks and therefore I am for bi-lateral talks."


Actually, he said you need both bi-lateral and multi-lateral talks. It was Bush that said it had to be one or the other by saying that bi-lateral talks would cause multi-lateral talks to fall apart.


If you were engaged in a negotiation with 5 other people, and 2 of them then started negotiating to the exclusion of the other 3, would you think that kosher?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:11 am
If you have a dispute with your neighbor is it better to just go talk to him, or have your other 5 neighbors act as go-betweens, or both?
At any rate, I'm only clarifying what I saw on the debates, whether I agree with it or not is irrelevant.
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Foxfyre
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:15 am
Freeduck writes:
Quote:
I find that hard to believe as I watched Lockhart talking to MSNBC and he seemed very happy with Kerry's performance and you could tell that he knew Kerry had one. Where did you see that?


I watched the debate on Cspan and did see that particular exchange enough to get the gist, but didn't think that much about it. Then posted on Drudge this morning:
Quote:
Unbeknownst to Kerry adviser Mike McCurry, a C-SPAN camera quietly followed McCurry as he found Kerry adviser Joe Lockhart on Spin Alley floor and asked him his impression of the debate. Lockhart candidly said to McCurry , "The consensus is it was a draw."


But you honestly don't think the Democrats would say that in the spin for public consumption do you?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:18 am
What I think is that you would have to *really* stretch it to call it a draw, and I wouldn't expect someone from the Kerry campaign to go out of their way to indicate that it was. Of course who's 'consensus' isn't clear in the quote. The media, the campaigns, observers?

At any rate, I just found it hard to believe. It's not really relevant.
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blueveinedthrobber
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:24 am
OCCOM BILL wrote:
padmasambava wrote:
I'd add that to characterize A2Kers who are Bush supporters as not to bright is not a matter of being rude. It's simply accurate.
Just so you know: This type of Ad Hominem attack will not be tolerated long on this site. If you think you can make a logical argument to support your conclusions, by all means do so with all the fervor you can muster. You should also know that around here; even people who agree with your politics will be disgusted by such childish antics. Why not be a little nicer? Idea


the paradox....not everyone who votes for bush is stupid....but I believe that sincerely for a million reasons I've stated many times that voting for bush is stupid.

the question...why would people who are not stupid do such a stupid thing?

Fearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfearfear
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:26 am
Brand X wrote:
Kerry misspoke when he referred to looking at KGB records in "Treblinka Square" in a visit to Russia. Treblinka was a Nazi death camp. He meant Lubyanka Square...

Imagine if Bush had said that, but no, Kerry is the moron.


Despite his claims of being Irish Catholic, Kerry is quite aware of his Jewish roots. Freudian slip, maybe?
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cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:27 am
Forgive the ignorant Canadian, Kerry has Jewish roots?
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FreeDuck
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:28 am
JustWonders wrote:
Despite his claims of being Irish Catholic, Kerry is quite aware of his Jewish roots. Freudian slip, maybe?


Irrelevant, maybe?
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JustWonders
 
  1  
Reply Fri 1 Oct, 2004 08:31 am
It's indeed irrelevant to me, Freeduck. I just thought it was interesting in light of Kerry's mistake ... "Treblinka Square".
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