9
   

THE LIE THAT IS LIBERAL

 
 
joefromchicago
 
  4  
Reply Thu 6 Oct, 2016 08:59 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
I believe that my position is invulnerable. Hit it with a nuclear warhead (or the rhetorical equivalent) and it will survive without a scratch.

We'll see how things turn out.

I think you already know.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Fri 7 Oct, 2016 05:21 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
I think you already know.

Yes. But it is always nice to verify my very high confidence by subjecting my position to external challenge and seeing how it fares.

Also, my discussion with you and Parados has prompted me to learn about an era of weapons that I had never paid much attention to before. I was vaguely aware that there were battles when the English longbow was a success, and I knew that there had to be a point where firearms became dominant, but had no idea when or why then. I had heard the term arquebus and knew it was an early type of firearm, but I didn't really know what one was. I thought I knew what a musket was (I was wrong). I had never even heard of a caliver (an early type of gun).

Now I am familiar with all of that.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Fri 7 Oct, 2016 11:03 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Now I am familiar with all of that.
You didn't mention the handgonne ("hand cannon").
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 09:33 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
oralloy wrote:
Now I am familiar with all of that.

You didn't mention the handgonne ("hand cannon").

By the time firearms became militarily significant (Battle of Cerignola, 1503), that was already obsolete.


I'm not sure if I agree with the design of the motte and bailey. The motte was the most militarily secure place, but the horses would have been kept in the bailey. If the bailey fell, what use would the motte be? There would no longer be any possibility of using the castle as a place from which to launch raids from behind enemy lines. The destruction of the bailey would render the castle useless as an offensive weapon.

Instead of constructing a lord's keep on the motte, they should have constructed a German-style bergfried. And they should have located the motte near the entrance to the bailey so that arrow-fire from the bergfried could have helped to secure the gates.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 10:35 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Instead of constructing a lord's keep on the motte, they should have constructed a German-style bergfried. And they should have located the motte near the entrance to the bailey so that arrow-fire from the bergfried could have helped to secure the gates.
A bergfried is just an uninhabited, fortified tower of a castle (or wall).
The donjon was the inhabited version of it ... especially in mottes.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 11:47 am
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
A bergfried is just an uninhabited, fortified tower of a castle (or wall).
The donjon was the inhabited version of it ... especially in mottes.

Yes. Put a bergfried on the motte. And put the motte out front by the gate. The bailey will be much more secure that way.

The longer the bailey survives, the longer the castle can be used as an offensive weapon from which to launch raids.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 11:51 am
@oralloy,
Might be so. But the idea behind it was defense, not offensive.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 03:51 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
I thought the idea was control over the countryside by providing a secure base from which heavy cavalry could ride out and engage in combat as necessary.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Sat 8 Oct, 2016 11:20 pm
@oralloy,
Originally not - these castles were a symbol of power* (for people living in that town/village who nevertheless used these feudal homes as shelter in certain times.)
Later, apart from these above castles, castles served to secure territories, to control customs and trade routes on land and water, and not least to defend and protect various installations.

That differs from region to region, but is a shortened description of the situation in central, western and northern Germany.

*In parts of Westphalia, even the farms were built castle-like - thus, this small region became "the land of the 1,000 castles". [My family name means in Old-/Middle-Saxon: the fenced place/field where the hind comes out.]
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  4  
Reply Sun 9 Oct, 2016 06:57 pm
@oralloy,
Quote:

The Firearms Act of 1920 also repeals the right to have guns from 1689.

Please point to the specific words in the bill that do that.

Your outlandish claim is not evidence. YOu need specific words.

Quote:
All a new law has to do in order to repeal an old right is override it with new rules that are contrary to the right.

If the old rules are still valid as written then NOTHING was repealed. Can they still own arms? Yes. Can they still own guns? Yes. Your argument that they can't do that is BS.

Quote:
That is incorrect. I am pointing out the clear and intended meaning of the words.
So your argument is that "under the law" means nothing about what is allowed by the law? You keep repeating the same crap over and over.
You don't change words or their meanings.
The words mean whatever YOU say they mean even if it is not the dictionary and legal definitions.
But you don't change words or their meanings.

Simple fact. You do change words to mean what you want them to. Then you claim you don't do what you obviously do.

Quote:
You wanted a court ruling that mentioned infantry weapons. Off hand that is the only one I can think of. Their logic was sound I think.
The ruling has nothing to do with what arms means under the EBR since it deals with the US Constitution.
oralloy
 
  -2  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 07:00 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Please point to the specific words in the bill that do that.

"if he is satisfied that the applicant is a person who has a good reason for requiring such a certificate"

"or to be a person of intemperate habits or unsound mind, or to be for any reason unfitted to be entrused with firearms"


parados wrote:
If the old rules are still valid as written then NOTHING was repealed.

After the Firearms Act of 1920, the old rules from 1689 were no longer valid (within the UK at least).


parados wrote:
Can they still own arms? Yes. Can they still own guns? Yes. Your argument that they can't do that is BS.

That is incorrect. The Firearms Act of 1920 gave the British government the power to deny individuals the ability to own guns.


parados wrote:
So your argument is that "under the law" means nothing about what is allowed by the law?

"As allowed by law" was authorization to set rules for people to follow when possessing or carrying guns.

It was not authorization for telling individuals that they could not have guns at all.


parados wrote:
You keep repeating the same crap over and over.

I keep repeating the truth over and over.


parados wrote:
You don't change words or their meanings.
The words mean whatever YOU say they mean even if it is not the dictionary and legal definitions.
But you don't change words or their meanings.

Sort of. I am pointing out what various phrases meant.


parados wrote:
Simple fact. You do change words to mean what you want them to. Then you claim you don't do what you obviously do.

No. I merely point out the words' existing meaning.


parados wrote:
The ruling has nothing to do with what arms means under the EBR since it deals with the US Constitution.

Well, except for the part about Protestants, it is the same right. And I think their logic is sound as far as they explored the issue.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 08:29 am
@oralloy,
Those don't overturn the EBR right. They enforce it by making something "allowed by law".

Quote:
After the Firearms Act of 1920, the old rules from 1689 were no longer valid (within the UK at least).
You state this repeatedly while ignoring the words of the rule from 1689. Your opinion doesn't change the actual words. The meaning of the actual words still exist in spite of you bastardization of them.

Quote:
That is incorrect. The Firearms Act of 1920 gave the British government the power to deny individuals the ability to own guns.
They always had that power. Read the F**ing EBR you keep claiming granted the rights.
parados
 
  4  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 08:58 am
@oralloy,
Quote:
"As allowed by law" was authorization to set rules for people to follow when possessing or carrying guns.

It was not authorization for telling individuals that they could not have guns at all.

ROFLMAO... That is your argument? You are claiming "as allowed by law" means all items are allowed and can only have laws creating rules about how the allowed items can be carried or used? You do realize that is a ridiculous argument, don't you?
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:19 am
@parados,
parados wrote:
Those don't overturn the EBR right.

That is incorrect. When two laws conflict with each other, the newer law takes precedence over the older law.


parados wrote:
They enforce it by making something "allowed by law".

Replacing an old law with something that is entirely contrary to the old law is hardly enforcing that old law.


parados wrote:
You state this repeatedly while ignoring the words of the rule from 1689.

I have not ignored anything. The words of the new law are contrary to the words of the old law. Therefore the old law was repealed by the new law.


parados wrote:
Your opinion doesn't change the actual words.

True. But a bit far afield since I haven't brought my opinion into this.


parados wrote:
The meaning of the actual words still exist in spite of you bastardization of them.

I have not bastardized any words.


parados wrote:
They always had that power. Read the F**ing EBR you keep claiming granted the rights.

That is incorrect. The British government did not have the power to prevent individuals from having guns until 1920.


parados wrote:
ROFLMAO... That is your argument? You are claiming "as allowed by law" means all items are allowed and can only have laws creating rules about how the allowed items can be carried or used?

No. I have repeatedly stated that they were able to bar narrow categories of guns.

What wasn't allowed was to tell an individual that they were not permitted to have any gun at all.


parados wrote:
You do realize that is a ridiculous argument, don't you?

I've always found that strict adherence to the truth is a winning strategy.
Walter Hinteler
 
  2  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 11:25 am
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
The British government did not have the power to prevent individuals from having guns until 1920.
Correct. Only the UK Parliament has the power to pass laws. And it onlycan become the law of the land if signed by the sovereign.
joefromchicago
 
  3  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 12:05 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
No. I have repeatedly stated that they were able to bar narrow categories of guns.

What wasn't allowed was to tell an individual that they were not permitted to have any gun at all.

So, to be clear, parliament couldn't ban guns until it did. Is that about right?
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 03:32 pm
@joefromchicago,
joefromchicago wrote:
So, to be clear, parliament couldn't ban guns until it did. Is that about right?

Yes.

Rights in the UK used to be tenuous things. The will of the majority (as expressed by Parliament) had absolute power.

This only changed when the UK subjected themselves to the authority of the European Court of Human Rights.

Unfortunately the ECHR does not enforce gun rights, so the land that created the right has now lost it.

We will never give up the right in America however.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 03:35 pm
@Walter Hinteler,
Walter Hinteler wrote:
And it onlycan become the law of the land if signed by the sovereign.

Really? What happens if Parliament wants to pass a law and the Queen refuses to sign it (let's say hypothetically she thinks the proposed law would be a very bad idea)??
contrex
 
  3  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 03:49 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:
Really? What happens if Parliament wants to pass a law and the Queen refuses to sign it (let's say hypothetically she thinks the proposed law would be a very bad idea)??

The Queen doesn't usually personally sign laws any more. Ministers do so using the Royal Prerogative. In any case the sovereign rules through and by consent of Parliament. In practice she cannot refuse.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 11 Oct, 2016 05:03 pm
@contrex,
Cool. Thanks for the information.
0 Replies
 
 

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