1
   

Do you believe in souls?

 
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 07:10 am
Laughing Yes, it is. However, the integration of contradiction is indeed a noble pursuit, even for bankers.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:30 am
Generally, I hate to quote scripture. Most Buddhist sutras are very old, from a time when many were illiterate. There is a form to these sutras that is designed, as an aid to memorization, to insure that the main points are transmitted properly. They have a beginning that often identifies the speaker, the place/time, and the audience. The speaker(s) in most cases are representative of positions and are not necessarily the words spoken by the real historical figure named. For instance, Ananda was one of the Buddha's closest and most loving disciples, so he is identified as the speaker in some sutras written long after his death. Was Ananda the actual speaker, or is he just a convenient mouthpiece for a doctrinal point of later Buddhist theologians? Most folks have no idea who these various personalities are, and one hesitates interpolating a long explanation of who and what these folks represent to Buddhist scholars. These old forms are very repetitive. The same phrase is used over and over again at the beginning or end of each refrain. Sometimes the same formulistic expression will have minor variations, each of which is intended to explicate some small element of the primary theme of the sutra. Most lay people get very impatient and drift away from this archaic style of expression.

My purpose is not to bore the pants off of you, but to put into modern terms ancient ideas that have been validated over thousands of years. I promise not to do this often, and I hope that my choice here will not be too extended or esoteric for you. These are just fragments, of a much longer works and is only a few of many dealing with the instant topic. All of the following are translated by Professor H.C. Warren.

"He, then, that has no clear idea of death and does not master the fact that death everywhere consists in the dissolution of the Groups (the "Groups" referred to are those elements that make up the "individual") he comes to a variety of conclusions, such as, "A living entity dies and transmigrates into another body."

He that has no clear idea of rebirth and does not master the fact the appearance of the Groups everywhere constitutes rebirth, he come to a variety of conclusions, such as, "A living entity is born and has obtained a new body."
… Yisuddhi-Magga (Chap. Xvii)

Later from the same work,



Here is the Candle analogy as it appeared in the Pali text Milindapauha.

"Said the king, "bhante Nagasena," ("bhante" is a term applied to a venerated and enlightened Master. Nagasena was very early on often quoted and probably was a close disciple of the historical Buddha) "Does rebirth take place without anything transmigrating?"

"Yes, your majesty. Rebirth takes place without anything transmigrating."

"How, bhante Nagasena, does rebirth take place without anything transmigrating? Give an illustration."

"Suppose, your majesty, a man were to light a light from another light; pray, would the one light have passed over (transmigrated) t the other light?"

"Nay, verily, bhante."

"In exactly the same way, your majesty, does rebirth take place without anything transmigrating."

"Give another illustration."

"Do you remember, your majesty, having learnt, when you were a boy, some verse or other from your professor of poetry?"

"Yes, bhante."

"Pray, your majesty, did the verse pass over (transmigrate) to you from your teacher?"

"Nay, verily, bhante."

"In exactly the same way, your majesty, does rebirth take place without anything transmigrating."

"You are an able man, bhante Nagasena."


Let's not do this again, it's as much a hassle to type in properly as it is for the modern audience to read. For those who really want to know about Buddhism, you will read a lot of this sort of thing. To really do it properly you need to learn at least some Pali and Sanscrit. Imagine trying to study early Christian works without an understanding of Greek, Latin, Hebrew and Aramaic. Laughing
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 12:55 pm
hahaha buddhist banker would rule

but i get it now, im not sure it appeals to me but i do get it, everything is changing everything is impermanent, there is no me, you, there is just everything

asherman, whats my grade now?
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 01:11 pm
Thank Jesus Americans no longer need Greek, Latin, Hebrew or Aramaic to understand the bible. Wink
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 01:15 pm
cavfancier wrote:
Thank Jesus Americans no longer need Greek, Latin, Hebrew or Aramaic to understand the bible. Wink



Yeah...luckily, they all speak American.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 01:40 pm
why do they call it "rebirth" though shouldnt it be just "birth" if absolutely nothing is passed on from the next life to the next

and is our so-called past lives really our past lives?
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 01:56 pm
JLNobody wrote:
I can't even say that YOU are always becoming. I can only say there is becoming. You ask "does everything just get mixed up with everything else [upon dying]. I would suggest that everything is mixed up with everything else right now, before dying.


yeah but i can still differentiate me from everything else right now, maybe the afterlife is like that too, the transistory false self hangs around after death and reincarnates even though it changes every second

also this continous changing of the cosmos and everything in it really proves to me that maya is real, everything is just an illusion
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 04:18 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
thethinkfactory wrote:


Frank - how about these two instances:

Case #1

I am in a motorcycle accident - I have such severe spiral fractures that a leading orthopedic surgeon (in this case Dr. Scholls) tells me I will never walk again. I am visited in a dream some days later by an angel (very picture book - wings and such) and tells me I will be fine. Within a month I am walking and to this day do very well on my leg.


Actually, this is unambiguous evidence that the doctor who told you you would never walk again was incorrect.

A dream is a dream!

In any case, to suppose this is unambiguous evidence of the existence of a god is absurd.


Quote:
Case #2

I use my pool cue to hit the cue ball into the eight ball and it moves.

In both cases I cannot observe the causal nexus and have no direct experiential - deductive proof that either the angel healed me or the cue ball CAUSED the eight ball to move.


C'mon. Do you want to discuss whether or not there is unambiguous proof of the existence of a god...or do you wanna kid around?


Quote:
Also, Joe and Frank I am also not deducing anything here. I am talking about inductive evidence. Frank's claim is that because all religious experience is ambigious no religious experience can be counted as evidence is the claim I am trying to address.


I never made any such claim!



Quote:
I do not claim that God exists because I feel one thing - I use that as one peice of inductive evidence to be wieghed in with other bits. And yes, Joe, this does mean when prayers are not answered that I put THAT bit in my careful wieghing of my belief in God. I do not go willy nilly into this - this is a life long experiential experiement to give inductive evidence to God's existence.


Well...what unambiguous evidence do you have that a god exists?


Quote:
The only leap of faith is when there is not conclusive evidence for or against God's existence that I 'chose' to believe.


"The only...!"

That is the whole shooting match, Jason.

There is no conclusive evidence...for or against the existence of any god.

There is no unambiguous evidence for or against the existence of any god.



Quote:
Does this make sense?


No.



Point by point her to remain clear:

1) To call #1 is absurd is to remove it out of hand and is not an argument at all.

2) I am not playing games - I am saying that if you remove all experiential evidence for God from the picture you are reducing yourself to remove all experiential evidence from the picture. The largest portion of scientific evidence is experiential and cause and effect.

You need to argue here that removing religious experience as proof for God is not the same as removing experience as proof for anything else. One cannot be simply absurd and the other simply valild - they are both experience.

3) post hoc ergo propter hoc is a deductive fallacy - not inductive. When you said to Joe on page 8 of this thread that he summed you up well you did say that I was deducing. I am saying that neither the scientist nor the believer deduces from expience - they induce.

4) My experiences are all unambigious. That is the problem with experiences that are not repeatable - miracles, self immoliation, things like this - the experiencer cannot give deductive - certain style proof to the non-experiencer. It just does not work that way. SO any experiential proof I give you will seem ambigious - but not to the experiencer.

5) It is not the only leap of faith possible - it what I use to make a conclusion so that I can act. You have no deductive proof then the next time you foot falls it will touch the ground - you use inductive evidence and faith the rest to certainty.

Overall, I suppose if you were the judge of my experiences I would never have any unambigious evidence for any of my experiences.

TTF
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 04:37 pm
Jason
Quote:
To call #1 is absurd is to remove it out of hand and is not an argument at all.


No, it is just an observation. Allow me to make it again. Your argument was absurd.


Quote:
I am not playing games - I am saying that if you remove all experiential evidence for God from the picture you are reducing yourself to remove all experiential evidence from the picture.


But you cannot call what you cited "experiential evidence" for the existence of a God.

You have absolutely no foundation for making that assertion.

You prayed -- you walked.

Virgins were thrown in the volcano -- crops grew.

Neither is experiential evidence of the existence of gods.

If you have any unambiguous evidence of the existence of any god....ANY GOD...offer it and we'll discuss it. But if you simply want to cite life circumstances and then assert that those circumstances can only be attributable to a god...all you are going to do is get a laugh from thinking people.

I am not trying to give you a hard time, Jason, and I am not trying to be rude. But your arguments are not very persuasive...nor are they logical.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 04:58 pm
Gold Barz, you said to Ash,
"...i get it now, im not sure it appeals to me but i do get it, everything is changing everything is impermanent, there is no me, you, there is just everything

asherman, whats my grade now?"

If I were the judge, you'd get an A for intellectual grasp, and for the tenacity you have showed in acquiring it.
But this topic of Buddhist insight has little to do with intellectual insight. It has to do with intuitive realization. If and when you actual realize the truth of what you have just said, it will appeal to you as nothing else ever has. You will feel a liberation from all the weight created by ego's desperation to be safe and strong.

You also said to me,
"yeah but i can still differentiate me from everything else right now, maybe the afterlife is like that too, the transistory false self hangs around after death and reincarnates even though it changes every second

also this continous changing of the cosmos and everything in it really proves to me that maya is real, everything is just an illusion."

This act of differentiation is itself ego; it is the act of separating your false self from your true Self, and identifying, to your detriminant, with the former. We all do it, and I believe that even the most enlightened zen master CAN do it. You say that the false self is like a ghost that haunts the world after our body's death. Very interesting image. I see my ego as haunting my life right now--I do not just think this; I can see it happening. This process is at the heart of the maya (or samsara) that you say is the only reality. I agree that illusions are real illusions, like mirages and egos. But once we realize their illusory nature, we see, I would hold, that their "reality" is subsumed within the greater Reality which is best characterized by non-dualism and no-ego. By "subsumed" I refer to something like the fact that the story in a movie is "illusory" compared to the movie itself, which is Real. Actually, my analogy is very imperfect because stories and the movies containing them are both illusory, but at different levels of illusion.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 07:07 pm
an A, thats great, also i am trying to force myself to believe in that there is no me, just everything but i cant seem to do it

edit: shouldnt there be something that gets passed on from life to life, i mean if there isnt, why do they call it reincarnation or rebirth, its just like an atheistic point of view, we die we cease to exist
0 Replies
 
thethinkfactory
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 07:31 pm
Frank:

You said

"You prayed -- you walked.

Virgins were thrown in the volcano -- crops grew.

Neither is experiential evidence of the existence of gods."

Let me add more to your list - if this is case.

You turned the key in your car - it started.

You wanted to raise you arm - it did.

If none of us can experience cause and effect in any experiential manner - then your car starting this morning was merely something that occured after the action of turning your key - no correlation - no cause and effect - just action a permanatly disconnected from action b.

I believe you are not being rude - I love your candor and your directness - it is refreshing - however I do believe I am speaking logically - I just don't think I am convincing you.

I think this is due to the subjective nature (notice I did not say relative) of experience.

Any experience is only valid for the experiencer - period.

Let me ask you this - what criterion do you have that would allow religious experience to be unambigious? What would count? What types of experience could I relate to you where you would say - THERE - that is unambigious?

(This is not a trap or a ploy - I could give two shits about a zero sum game with you - I just want to know.)

Jason
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:21 pm
Sorry, Goldbars, you might have earned a "+" for the reasons JL gave just above, but no more. JLNobody has got it, you haven't. Sorry. You can't force the door of understanding, that just makes the realization more difficult. The ego is like dust on a mirror. If you try to vigorously wipe it away, it just becomes a cloud of dust and settles back to obscure the mirror before you have an opportunity to gaze on the True image. Maya is not reality, it is only an illusion. We must deal with the Illusory as if it were real, but know at the same time in our very blood and bones that it is false. Preparation to Awaken sometimes takes many years, but when it happens it is a lightening stroke. A few may get a glimpse early, but often it is like seeing a phantom fleetingly out of the corner of your eye. That can be a danger because the seeker may say, "Oh ho, I get it" and never progress beyond that initial insight.

You shouldn't feel bad, or discouraged that you haven't got it. You are at least looking, and that is the first step on a rocky path that is very long and that leads into desolate deserts and abandoned mountain peaks. You can probably not see it yet, the mountain peaks are after all covered in clouds and shrouded in snow, but this is can lead to the most important, earthshaking experience we are capable of. You can take nothing with you on the journey, so lighten your load. Pay attention, and be ready for the mid-terms. Its a long, long way to Tipperary and the Final Examination.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:31 pm
Gold Barz, I appreciate your honesty; you call it as you see it. But don't waste energy forcing yourself to "believe" there is no you. It's a catch 22: the very act of rejecting ego reinforces ego, because from your perspective YOU are making that effort. Ego remains in control, and as such reinforces itself. The task is not just to eliminate ego by rejecting it; the task is to expose it for what it is, to watch it operate in your consciousness. This requires some form of meditation, unless you're a spiritual genius who does not need that.
I can't help you with your problem regarding what gets passed from one life to another. This follows from your being attached to the words, reincarnation and rebirth. They are probably lousy translations. Asherman might be able to help us with that. But I do not see it as an authentic problem.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:39 pm
The paradox of the ego is interesting.

I remember reading in an eastern text:

"The snares are everywhere. Beware those that appear to have 'little or no ego.' A Big Ego lurks behind one that claims to have 'No Ego.'"

Its like a competition to see who can have the lesser ego. Look, I am more humble than you! My ego is smaller. My ego is non-existent.

Or is it?
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 08:45 pm
Extra Medium ... many fall into that trap. I see it all the time in American Buddhists, even the clergy. Perhaps even more in American monks and priests. The ego always lurks about until one becomes fully Enlightened. That is the real sacrifice that the Bhodisatva makes out of compassion for sentient beings by postponing full Enlightenment.

In each moment we just do the best we can. Patience is one of the great rewards of meditation, and the serious seeker will need much of it.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 09:05 pm
Yes, indeed. The most enlightened people I've had the privilege to know--and I'm assuming I can recognize enlightenment in others--are Charlotte Joko Beck and Roshi Kwong. And their most striking characteristic is their free-flowing ordinariness.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 10:23 pm
so what we think is reincarnation is not really reincarnation?
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 10:48 pm
Yes, what we think is "reincarnation" is not what you think it means. Frankly, I don't know what it means. There's an inexpensive book at Barnes & Noble ($6.00) on Buddhism that goes into the nature of reincarnation. It is "Who is the Buddha" by Sangha...(forget the rest of his name). They'll know it. It is very clear.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 11:22 pm
wow, all along i thought buddhism was deeply rooted on reincarnation
0 Replies
 
 

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