Quote:Question: Your guess that Knowledge of a God does not exist (at least currently) is based on what?
Furnish whatever evidence you have that a God exists!
If there is none...or at least none that cannot be interpreted in other ways...then "knowledge" that there is a God does not exist.
Quote:I have a tough time understanding a guess without any evidence.
So do I. That is why I am asking anyone who asserts that there is a God...to furnish evidence that the God exists. That is also why I am asking anyone who asserts that there are no gods...to furnish evidence there are no gods.
Quote: If you are basing your guess on evidence you are stating that that evidence comes from experience (i.e. the experience that you have had that leads you to believe that there is no evidence). If you have used evidence to make a guess - then this evidence is not arbitrary (i.e. it supported your guess).
This makes no sense. I am merely asking anyone who asserts there is a God...or who asserts there are no gods...to furnish the evidence they have.
Short of evidence in either direction...the only reasonable and logical position to take is: I do not know.
Quote:[Unless it really is a guess - then you have indeed retained your Agnosticism.
That is very good of you. It is also a bit condescending.
I have no worries about my agnosticism being intact.
Quote:This leads me to your other statement of why God would not make his believers certain of his existence. I have struggled with this too.
My running theory is that he does so to retain our free will. If we were made certain of God - there would be no point in attempting to choose not to believe in him. This would limit our free will and make freedom of religious choice moot. This, in turn, would make us less responsible for our actions (i.e. there would be no point of the belief portion of faith - it would be a certainty).
This "free will" thing is being overdone.
The major reason free will and "belief" are important to theist...is because it is the only way a theist can get past the problems their beliefs cause them.
In any case...I don't care why any particular God (theoretical or not) would not wish to give certainty.
If there isn't certainty...there is uncertainty. IF there is uncertainty...knowledge is missing.
If there is uncertainty...you must guess.
That is what I have been saying all along.
Quote:p.s. Frank - you have given me a very full and well thought out version of Agnosticism that has enriched my understanding. I think fundementally you are wrong (for all the reasons stated in the last 30 or so pages)- but I think you are very well justified in your beliefs.
Thank you. I shouldn't surprise you to find out that I strongly disagree that I am wrong.
I do not know if there is a God or if there are no gods...and I do not know any of the other things about Ultimate REALITY.
Not sure why you think I am wrong on that...but...
In any case, I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS...so there is no way I am justifying any beliefs...something I would not do under any circumstances.
Quote: Thanks for being patient and explaining yourself two and three times so that I could get it.
I am willing to discuss this until I die at this keyboard. Never stop challenging anything I say with which you disagree (I expect you will find some of those things in this post)...nor asking any questions you want to ask.
I will never tire.