Do you believe in souls?

Furnish whatever evidence you have that a God exists!

If there is none...or at least none that cannot be interpreted in other ways...then "knowledge" that there is a God does not exist.




So do I. That is why I am asking anyone who asserts that there is a God...to furnish evidence that the God exists. That is also why I am asking anyone who asserts that there are no gods...to furnish evidence there are no gods.




This makes no sense. I am merely asking anyone who asserts there is a God...or who asserts there are no gods...to furnish the evidence they have.

Short of evidence in either direction...the only reasonable and logical position to take is: I do not know.




That is very good of you. It is also a bit condescending.

I have no worries about my agnosticism being intact.





This "free will" thing is being overdone.

The major reason free will and "belief" are important to theist...is because it is the only way a theist can get past the problems their beliefs cause them.

In any case...I don't care why any particular God (theoretical or not) would not wish to give certainty.

If there isn't certainty...there is uncertainty. IF there is uncertainty...knowledge is missing.

If there is uncertainty...you must guess.

That is what I have been saying all along.





Thank you. I shouldn't surprise you to find out that I strongly disagree that I am wrong.

I do not know if there is a God or if there are no gods...and I do not know any of the other things about Ultimate REALITY.

Not sure why you think I am wrong on that...but...

In any case, I DO NOT HAVE BELIEFS...so there is no way I am justifying any beliefs...something I would not do under any circumstances.




I am willing to discuss this until I die at this keyboard. Never stop challenging anything I say with which you disagree (I expect you will find some of those things in this post)...nor asking any questions you want to ask.

I will never tire.

Good.
But notice, Frank, that I never even discuss the issue of God's existence. That's because I find it totally uninteresting and meaningless. Not because I believe in a no-God. That's what I meant earlier by a passive atheism.

Was anyone surprised to learn this?

Good, JL. The god—no-god trap is easy to fall into. Wars have resulted from this trick of the intellect.

E.M. Forster said, "I don't believe in belief." That doesn't mean that he wasn't spiritual.

No surprise at all.

Sorry, JL...that post was directed to Jason (Think Factory)...but I neglected to put that in. He has discussed the items I mentioned.

Frank:

I think if certainty is what you are looking for - you will be sadly dissapointed with the lot of knowledge you believe you posess.

Descartes, while running through his search for certain knowledge ended with the paltry realization that he was a thinking being - others have corrected Descartes by saying all that be certain is that he is a thinking something.

If you are looking for certainty - I think your criterion for knowledge is set too high. If you are certain you are reading this right now - give me certain proof that you are not dreaming - or that you are being decieved by an evil demon.

In nearly all knowedge there is a percent chance for error - which is why the vast majority of our claims are done inductively - including beliefs for God's existence.

I agree than I may be wrong when I witness the effects of God - but no more wrong that I might be when I witness the effects of other things I am 'certain' of - like my Dog or my Wife.

I am not sure how you can retain your certainty of your keyboard while simply discounting religious experience - when both are gained through the experience of the senses.

TF

Where the hell have I asked for certainty????

Why does it always come down to this in your posts, Jason?

Why not deal with what I have actually written...instead of dreaming this kind of stuff up.


In any case...you seem to be saying that if I can be sure I am typing on a keyboard right now...and if I can be sure that the name on my birth certificate is Frank Apisa...

...I should accept that you can be sure there is a God...

...because we arrive at our "sureness" the same way.

That is ABSURD.

I am looking at the keyboard right now...I can touch it and feel it and I can show it to other people who come into the room. In the storage box next to my desk is my birth certificate. I can touch it and feel it and I can show it to other people who come into the room.

Are you telling me that you can touch your god and feel your god and you can show your god to other people who come into the room where you are?


Yes...like any competent debater...I can devolve into sophistry and argue that the keyboard and the birth certificate may not exist...but the fact remains...even if the entire universe is nothing by an illusion...I can do things with supposed "experience" my keyboard and my birth certificate...that you cannot do with your supposed "experience" with your god.

Good grief...do you truly not see that????????




I could care less about anyone's "beliefs" in gods. Believe whatever you want. If you want to "believe" you can train an elephant to walk a tight rope stretched across the Grand Canyon...go ahead an believe it.

No one is ever going to stop you from "believing" in whatever you want to believe in.




Well...what can I say. I don't mean to be rude...but if what you just said there is true...seek psychiatric help, because you have crossed over a significant line.




See above.

Where the hell have I asked for certainty????

Why does it always come down to this in your posts, Jason?

Why not deal with what I have actually written...instead of dreaming this kind of stuff up.


In any case...you seem to be saying that if I can be sure I am typing on a keyboard right now...and if I can be sure that the name on my birth certificate is Frank Apisa...

...I should accept that you can be sure there is a God...

...because we arrive at our "sureness" the same way.

That is ABSURD.

I am looking at the keyboard right now...I can touch it and feel it and I can show it to other people who come into the room. In the storage box next to my desk is my birth certificate. I can touch it and feel it and I can show it to other people who come into the room.

Are you telling me that you can touch your god and feel your god and you can show your god to other people who come into the room where you are?


Yes...like any competent debater...I can devolve into sophistry and argue that the keyboard and the birth certificate may not exist...but the fact remains...even if the entire universe is nothing by an illusion...I can do things with supposed "experience" my keyboard and my birth certificate...that you cannot do with your supposed "experience" with your god.

Good grief...do you truly not see that????????




I could care less about anyone's "beliefs" in gods. Believe whatever you want. If you want to "believe" you can train an elephant to walk a tight rope stretched across the Grand Canyon...go ahead an believe it.

No one is ever going to stop you from "believing" in whatever you want to believe in.




Well...what can I say. I don't mean to be rude...but if what you just said there is true...seek psychiatric help, because you have crossed over a significant line.




See above.

Greeetings Thethinkfactory:

Since this debate continues, I must ask you to explain me, clearly, what you mean by:
a) Soul
b) God.

As a Scientist and mathematican I have alot of respect for Frank's views; now we have a common definition of certainty, belief and faith (and God didn't that take blood, sweat and grief to achieve!).

In a nutshell for God to make sense to me as scientist, then God must be in largely external to our universe, and considerably more than us; possibly infinite. This poses a few problems - most definitely how do you attempt to comprehend a transendant being that is so far beyond you we don't even have a rule or scale imagined to measure God on. If I can measure it I can manage it was once a mantra of Business Schools. Well frankly we lack the wherewithal to begin to measure God. Superman - yes, Einstein - yes, Kennedy, Martin Luther King, Ghandi - yes, God - NO.

As a mathematican I could say you can map say a 30 dimensional space (e.g. Godspace or heaven) into a 3 dimensional space (say Earth) easy enough (but alot of information is lost), but you can't do it the other way if you don't know what Godspace's dimensions are. We know about our reality, not heaven or hell or outside our universe. I hold that most of God resides predominantly in what we call heaven of which we know sweet little. Conclusion, we can make almost no deep or sensible calls on God's motives, game plan, motivation or a thousand other critical factors whose existence mankind has not yet the wit to realise even exist.

Its like a dog trying to make sense of the entire Universe - completely beyond him.

So any spectulation on God is bound to be extremely limited from any scientific perspective. From a social point of view we are similarly hamstrung, we dont know - God's favour drink, meal, person, song, pastime, colour etc.... into infinity!

Souls fall into the same domain. Perhaps that is the part of us we don't experience that project into 30 or 50 dimensional Godspace (Heaven). We don't know so why launch wild arse guesses about it?

To me uncertainity is a very powerful two edge sword, both to scientists (alah Uncertainity principle), maths (incompleteness of Math and Logic dating from Turing's time) and to faith systems - (what are God's motives and desires - why create our reality and us in it, what is life's purpose)? Uncertainity is like an infinity to a mathematican - valuable but handle with care and all too open to abuse by the inexperienced. I think God and free will and uncertainity are inextricably bound; as a mathematican I realise any truly powerful and complex system must have uncertainity built in.

* * *

One thing I have acquired from these forums is a clearer understanding of my science and faith platforms; but it has left me realising I believe in a creationist god that I don't know or deeply understand. This leads to the $64 million question - what the fark is it that I do believe in then? I can't answer this - I have come to the conclusion it is beyond me. What use is my faith then - well its a voyage of discovery and I am still trying to work that one out!

I liked that post, G-day.

You have what I consider to be an excellent grasp of what we are dealing with here.

If someone says to me that they "believe" in God...or that they do not "believe" in gods...or even "I believe there are no gods"...

...I can understand.

But there is an element...found mostly among theists...who insist that this is not a matter of "belief" or "guessing" or "estimating"...but rather is certainty. They assert that they "know" there is a God.

And every once in a while, I encounter an atheist who also "insists" that he KNOWS there are no gods. Not that it is a "belief" or "guess" or "estimate"...but rather it is certainty.

Edgar happens to be such an atheist.

And whenever I encounter one of these people on an Internet forum designed for discussion of just such issues...I challenge them.

If you have been following this discussion...you see that I have challenged Edgar. And you see where it has gone.

Thanks for your comments, g-day.

Val, I don't wish to pre-empt Jason's response to you, regarding the nature of soul and God, but let me interject my perspective briefly. I do not believe in either the Christian notion of soul or God (they make no sense to me), but I do think the terms can be framed in a way that is secular (if far from scientific, G_day) and consistent with Eastern thought, as I understand it. To me, the concept of God may be used (very abstractly) in reference to the ultimate nature of reality, whatever that may be--I don't think it can be "caught" cognitively(either verbally or mathematically) by humans. The total nature of what is ultimately the case, is referred to by many terms, including Dharma, Brahma, and God. This referent is fundamentally a unity, even though it is manifested as a plurality. We are expressions of it (Dharma, Brahma, God). Our portion of this unity, that which is reflected in our being and consciousnes, is referred to in Vedanta as Atman. Atman and Brahma (or soul and God) are one. We do not, in this sense HAVE a soul; we ARE a soul. And the soul/atman is a collective rather than an individual reality. We are, by virtue of our atman//soul one with Brahma/God. The Hindus say that Atman=God. In that sense Soul=God. But I wonder if Atman may be considered the sum of all consciousness, while Brahma is greater than that sum. ????????????????????
Just a perspective, a way of framing one's most general intuitions, not an exposition of empirically observed and measurable facts.

Frank:

Given your last post - I wish to restate my ORIGINAL premise (or perhaps what my original premise should have been). This perhaps will state what I meant more cleanly.

I believe in God and I believe I have a few bits of evidence to support my belief.

Does that mean I am certain? - by no means. But that I believe.

Now I see your frustration - I too am frustrated by 'knowers'. I believe knowledge is far to strong of a word for a mostly unperceptable being.

I believe I can see 'his' effects - but do not pretend to 'know' that he is the cause. I believe he is the cause based on the effects. Could there be other causes - sure - much like there could be other causes when I see one pool ball move another. It seems humans cannot observe the causal nexus and can only measure the 'cause' from it's effects.

TTF

I have gone through this topic before, but I can't seem to find the difference between transmigration and reincarnation. Is it even mentioned here? I believe Asherman had quoted the scriptures, but I can't seem to find it anymore.

Where is Asherman?