Do you believe in souls?

yeah i dont get it it, i think there is something thats passed on and not just karma, or else it wouldnt be reincarnation

Think,

There are no "souls" in this incarnation, or the next. What there is, is consequence arising from the mistaken idea that a dimensional world has real existence. So long as we interact with the perceptual world, even by retiring from it, consequences follow. We can not escape consequence, but we can do is choose our thoughts, words and actions. If we choose wisely the consequences will be a mitigation of the suffering natural to sentient life. Some will choose selfishly, or to purposefully increase suffering. Many will not "choose" at all, but will respond to the world's stimuli either emotionally, or by following the "easiest" immediate path. Two of the three notions perpetuate the Perceptual World and suffering. The third may sometimes fail to mitigate suffering, or even increase it somewhat. However, choosing a course that is compassionate and will reasonably strike at the roots of suffering is the path Buddhists ought to choose.

The candle flame isn't a soul, but the consequences of a life lived. The consequences are passed from generation to generation. In another sense, the flame is the "dream", the underlying Ulitmate Reality from which the Perceptual World arises. There is no birth nor death, for those are attributes of the perceptual world, not Ultimate Reality that IS without dimension.

I've heard the analogy of water passed from one container to another before, and it is really the same as the candle flame. It might be interesting to have a thread on immortality. Natalie calls me to dinner, bye.

No they don't!

Most of them really do give a variation of "...because I just do!"

You may not operate that way...but don't suppose for a second that you speak for all "believers" -- or even a majority of them.




That makes two of us, because neither do I.

But I suspect that is because I have never made any such claim.






I'm saying that I have no idea of why the pain stopped...and I suspect, neither do you.

But you are choosing to suppose it the result of a god of some kind.

That is VERY arbitrary...considering all the other possible reasons.




I have no idea of what you are talking about here.

Asherman,

so there is no me in the next life.....why the hell do they call it reincarnation

I'm not sure I want to justify the word, reincarnation, but perhaps this guess will be not totally unsatisfying. Imagine that the fundamental nature of Ultimate Reality, say its "spirit", were to manifest itself in human flesh: incarnation. What about if it continually does so, even after bodies die: re-incarnation.
But I prefer Asherman's reference to consequences, similar to what I referred to earlier as the residua of one's life.

I'm interested in the metaphorical approach to religious images and myths; it seems so much more appropriate than literalism.

However, I've heard Joseph Campbell mentioning that the parting of the Red Sea as symbolizing dualism. But I still don't understand the significance of that.

As far as Jesus walking on water you're approach seems close, but water is usually symbolic of the unconscious. It possible that water in this case is symbolic of nature. Jesus' walking on it may symbolize Christianity becoming supernatural and alienated from nature, lording over nature, so to speak.

i dont know, so basically this "karma" is our track record right

i think i get the buddhist belief now, i read some stuff, basically the "soul" is a false self, it is a bundle of alot of stuff, like sensations, memories, etc. but it bundles up together to make this false self, and this false self reincarnates from physical body to body

I suppose that's close enough for your level of understanding. It isn't quite right, but is less important than how you deal with perceptual reality in this life, carnation.

"A white sport coat, and a pink carnation. I'm all dressed up for the Prom. Once you told me long ago, that to the Prom with me you'd go. Now you've changed your mind it seems, and someone else will hold my dreams ... in a white sport coat and a pink carnation."

i see, so unless we figure out a way to stop it (nirvana) then we will keep reincarnating?

so is nirvana, we just cease to exist, or we become "alive"

sorry but i dont get it so basically we dont live again?, why do they call it reincarnation then if it isnt "me" who is going to live in the next life it will be some other bundle of sensation, etc or do they just mean that because this "fake self" is impermanent and changes all the time that it cannot be called a soul

To experience Ultimate Reality can lead to a deeper understanding of the nature of things, and of suffering. For some Ultimate Reality, Enlightenment, is the end of their participation in Maya, the world of illusion. They will no longer suffer, and the perceptual world ceases to exist ... "they" will no longer exist apart from the Whole. That does not mean that the Perceptual World ends absolutely. Those dream creatures who have yet to experience and fully become awake to Ultimate Reality will continue, and suffering will continue for them.

For followers of Mahayana, once approaching Ultimate Reality and gaining some understanding of it, we may choose to "postpone" full Enlightenment out of compassion for those not yet ready to come awake. It is meritorious to teach, to answer questions and make the dharma available in understandable form to those who may be restive in their sleep. When a sentient being truly longs for release from the causal chains of suffering, the Buddha's Teachings are there to help them begin their journey to Wakefulness.

It is not necessary, perhaps even a hinderance, to dwell too much on the abstract theory and doctrine that lie at the heart of the Illusory World. It is much more important that the student, the seeker, put into practice the discipline and fundamental practices that will prepare them to "touch the Void". Live this moment, neither the past nor future exist. Cultivate detachment from emotional attachments and desires. Be constant in your attention to your thoughts, words and actions, that they might mitigate the causes of suffering. Pay attention. Pay attention to your own state, and let others be in their own time. Live well, but moderately. Own nothing that you aren't willing to give away, but give nothing away without weighing the consequences. Treat the Perceptual World as if it were real, but never forget for even a moment that it is illusory and has no meaning in a larger sense. That is to become "alive".

Ahh Miller....I was quite fond of 'Under The Roofs of Paris', which sadly, I cannot quote from on this forum. Underneath the vulgarity however, was the realization that life is for the living, and experience, whatever it might be, is what makes up anyone's definition of 'soul'. In other words, live in the moment, and let the afterlife work itself out.

yeah but its nice to know if we could live more lives, wherever whenever

Gold Barz, as I suggested it is not "you" (an ego-self) that is re-incarnated; it is the Cosmos that continually incarnates itself. You say that:
"...i think i get the buddhist belief now... basically the "soul" is a false self."
The IDEA of soul, as I see it, is very non-buddhistic. But it is, I think, describable, as you say (in buddhistic terms), as a false self. The idea serves to give us, the creators of the idea, an illusory sense of immortality OF THE EGO-self. This is why when I say that the Cosmos re-incarnates itself, that is unsatisfying to most people. They don't want the Cosmos to re-incarnate itself; they want their egos to do so.

Gold Barz, your ego says that it would be "nice to know if we could live more lives, wherever whenever." My ego agrees. But I feel quite confident that Ultimate Reality is better than what our ego's desire. Indeed, because it is reality it must be better, or more likely the BEST.

a wholeheartedly agree, that the ultimate reality is probably better for everybody, better than the physical life, the best but i cant help but feel to believe in reincarnation and think we are going to live more lives

isnt the cosmos us too, so basically if the cosmos reincarnate so will we....right, therefore we reincarnate too

Yes, that seems right to me. Since we are the Cosmos, whatever the Cosmos does we do. But by "we" I do not refer to our distinct egos. Our bodies while distinct are simultaneously one with the Whole. But our egos have nothing to do with anything, except insofar as they are "real" illusions, and illusions are expressions of Reality. Remember, a mirage is a REAL mirage, but we must not confuse it with water.

yeah but we still reincarnate, that is my point

That's right, but we'll be let down if we expect that YOU, Gold Barz, and I, JLNobody, will be reincarnated. But no need for dispair because while we, as egos, will not continue after dying, we, as egos, do not exist now.