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Do you believe in souls?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 07:35 pm
thethinkfactory wrote:


Frank - how about these two instances:

Case #1

I am in a motorcycle accident - I have such severe spiral fractures that a leading orthopedic surgeon (in this case Dr. Scholls) tells me I will never walk again. I am visited in a dream some days later by an angel (very picture book - wings and such) and tells me I will be fine. Within a month I am walking and to this day do very well on my leg.


Actually, this is unambiguous evidence that the doctor who told you you would never walk again was incorrect.

A dream is a dream!

In any case, to suppose this is unambiguous evidence of the existence of a god is absurd.


Quote:
Case #2

I use my pool cue to hit the cue ball into the eight ball and it moves.

In both cases I cannot observe the causal nexus and have no direct experiential - deductive proof that either the angel healed me or the cue ball CAUSED the eight ball to move.


C'mon. Do you want to discuss whether or not there is unambiguous proof of the existence of a god...or do you wanna kid around?


Quote:
Also, Joe and Frank I am also not deducing anything here. I am talking about inductive evidence. Frank's claim is that because all religious experience is ambigious no religious experience can be counted as evidence is the claim I am trying to address.


I never made any such claim!



Quote:
I do not claim that God exists because I feel one thing - I use that as one peice of inductive evidence to be wieghed in with other bits. And yes, Joe, this does mean when prayers are not answered that I put THAT bit in my careful wieghing of my belief in God. I do not go willy nilly into this - this is a life long experiential experiement to give inductive evidence to God's existence.


Well...what unambiguous evidence do you have that a god exists?


Quote:
The only leap of faith is when there is not conclusive evidence for or against God's existence that I 'chose' to believe.


"The only...!"

That is the whole shooting match, Jason.

There is no conclusive evidence...for or against the existence of any god.

There is no unambiguous evidence for or against the existence of any god.



Quote:
Does this make sense?


No.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 07:51 pm
OK, here's one.

I was a liar. I was a climber. I yelled at my mother; sought my own selfish desires. I always responded to life based on the predicate of what was in it for me. I guess, your average person...

I don't know how else to say it--after my experience, my entire life changed.

People imagine, I guess, that after a conversion experience, the 'converted person' has to drop all the things you would categorize as sin. Or either you have to start hiding it.

There are a lot of people who DO try to change their internal structure, or hide their external behavior, and call themselves Christians. They can't do it. They become bitter, and give Christianity a bad rap.

But, there are some, who have a genuine experience with Christ--and in a surprise to them, their internal construction changes, and their external vibe evidences it.

My life changed. The first time my mother started on me after my conversion--my usual response wasn't even in me. I didn't even have to tell her I'd changed, or been reborn. After she saw I wasn't going to respond the way I always had--she knew. Love for people replaces whatever was there before. Lying becomes as hard as telling the truth was before. You are seeking to help those who are hurting you, more than you used to strive to protect yourself.

That's not a normal human response.

It's not to say you still don't do things you know you 'shouldn't'. You always will. But, your internal construction has been reorganized.

That is a miracle. It is without effort.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 07:55 pm
Lash wrote:
OK, here's one.

I was a liar. I was a climber. I yelled at my mother; sought my own selfish desires. I always responded to life based on the predicate of what was in it for me. I guess, your average person...

I don't know how else to say it--after my experience, my entire life changed.

People imagine, I guess, that after a conversion experience, the 'converted person' has to drop all the things you would categorize as sin. Or either you have to start hiding it.

There are a lot of people who DO try to change their internal structure, or hide their external behavior, and call themselves Christians. They can't do it. They become bitter, and give Christianity a bad rap.

But, there are some, who have a genuine experience with Christ--and in a surprise to them, their internal construction changes, and their external vibe evidences it.

My life changed. The first time my mother started on me after my conversion--my usual response wasn't even in me. I didn't even have to tell her I'd changed, or been reborn. After she saw I wasn't going to respond the way I always had--she knew. Love for people replaces whatever was there before. Lying becomes as hard as telling the truth was before. You are seeking to help those who are hurting you, more than you used to strive to protect yourself.

That's not a normal human response.

It's not to say you still don't do things you know you 'shouldn't'. You always will. But, your internal construction has been reorganized.

That is a miracle. It is without effort.


What is your point here, Lash?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 07:57 pm
Its my contribution to evidence. Its the best I have.

Nothing floated.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:02 pm
Lash wrote:
Its my contribution to evidence. Its the best I have.

Nothing floated.


I'm not trying to be a wiseass here, Lash, but...

...what exactly do you see as unambiguous evidence of the existence of god in your post?

I honestly do not see it.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:10 pm
If humans are creatures of habit, how does one's habits change overnight with no effort?

Do you subscribe to nature or nurture? How does such a profound change take place that cannot be attributed to either?

Do you know anyone who, without any outside intervention, completely changed the basic structure of their identity in a split second?
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:12 pm
I mean, outside of schizophrenia, I've never heard of it. And, my experience was not an emotional, religious thing. Not in a church. Not at an event.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:15 pm
I'm not trying to convert anyone--trust me.

I just thought, as I was reading someone else's comments, that the single most powerful evidence that there is a God, is a changed life.

I'll stop here if I'm hogging the conversation.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:19 pm
Lash wrote:
If humans are creatures of habit, how does one's habits change overnight with no effort?


I do it all the time. I have cast iron will power.


Quote:
Do you subscribe to nature or nurture? How does such a profound change take place that cannot be attributed to either?


Beats the piss out of me. And if you want to ascribe it to a god...that is your right.

But to suppose that "profound change" can occur only if a god decides to make the change is not only silly...it is unnecessarily demeaning to your own accomplishments.


Quote:
Do you know anyone who, without any outside intervention, completely changed the basic structure of their identity in a split second?


Perhaps I do. Apparently you have done it...and in a way, I know you. And since neither of us can know for sure if the change you claim is the result of you simply doing it; some other agency (perhaps even a god) it is a possibility that I do know someone.
0 Replies
 
Lash
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:26 pm
Well. I won't argue, Frank. But, I will clarify that the change that occurred in me was not by me. I didn't "choose" to change.

The change happened to me. I noticed it as it happened. My heart had changed; my behavior just sort of shlepped curiously behind it.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 08:28 pm
yeah the ultimate reality there is no "me", or "you", there is just "us"/"everything" but in this illusion/maya there is a "me" and a "you", this dynamic bundle is basically a soul
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 09:42 pm
No, Goldbars, you still don't get it. You do get a B for effort though.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 09:51 pm
but i have researched about it and most seem to imply that this consciousness reincarnates, it just changes often, the eternal soul doesnt exist but this consciousness does

what the hell reincarnates then?, if it will not be me who will live future lives why the heck do they call it reincarnation or rebirth, it just the same as if there is no reincarnation
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 10:05 pm
the Buddha clearly knew his previous lives. This implies that there is some part of a person that continues from life to life.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 10:21 pm
Goldbars, you have to distinguish between transmigration of souls, and reincarnation. They are not the same thing. You say you have done research. Alright, what research can you cite that supports transmigration of souls? I've been a student for longer than you've been alive I think, and have yet to see anything persuasive to support this notion.

"the Buddha clearly knew his previous lives. This implies that there is some part of a person that continues from life to life."

Why do you think/believe that the Buddha knew his past lives? Where do you find this in the sutras? The oldest, and most fundamental sources are specific NO SOULs. I think you have latched onto some mythology that is not sound Buddhist theology. Again, in the oldest and most fundamental sutras the Teaching is explicit that there is no soul.
0 Replies
 
Gold Barz
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 10:39 pm
then what is reborn? after we die, does everything just get mixed up with everything else

some say (not me, i dont know anything about this i just wanna learn) that buddha didnt specificly say no souls but more like no eternal, non-changing soul

"Anatta: All beings have no self. In Indian philosophy, the concept of a self is called ātman (that is, "soul" or metaphysical self), which refers to an unchanging, permanent essence. This concept and the related concept of Brahman, the Vedantic monistic ideal, which was regarded as an ultimate ātman for all beings, were indispensable for mainstream Indian metaphysics, logic, and science; for all apparent things there had to be an underlying and persistent reality, akin to a Platonic form. The Buddha rejected the concept of ātman, emphasizing not permanence but changeability."

got it from wikepdia, this is what im trying to say
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Sep, 2004 11:31 pm
The citation does reflect the essential idea of Buddhism (but do not attach to it or you'll not personally understand the point of Buddhism). There is no unchanging thing in reality. Perhaps the totality is unchanging, because it is not relative to anything else. But there is no essential you, neither in the form of ego nor soul. You are not a being; you are a process or a continous becoming. I can't even say that YOU are always becoming. I can only say there is becoming. You ask "does everything just get mixed up with everything else [upon dying]. I would suggest that everything is mixed up with everything else right now, before dying.
I like to think that my true nature is my atman and that this atman is also yours. I like the Vedantic notion (from the later Upanishads) that my atman is the "ultimate atman" or Brahma(n). That is, of course, a metaphor for human intuitions, not an actual description of the observable Cosmos. Your signature line says you are a firm believer in UNIVERSAL reincarnation. So am I, in the sense that I've been describing. But you have been arguing for a kind of PARTICULARISTIC reincarnation, a rebirth of individual souls, not a continuing reproduction of the entire Cosmic Process.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 06:49 am
Now JL gets a solid "A" and has already aced the mid-terms.
0 Replies
 
cavfancier
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 06:54 am
I wish the banks would enforce a 'hire Buddhists only' policy.
0 Replies
 
Asherman
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Sep, 2004 07:09 am
I doubt that Buddhist bankers would be much different than any other. On the other hand, it is rather nice to contemplate a compassionate banker. Hmnn, that's a contradiction of terms, isn't it? Laughing
0 Replies
 
 

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