Why do so many Americans want socialism (and support Bernie Sanders' Idealism)?

@Senter,

Quote:

"People were gradually seeing their buying power slide, so banks stepped in to make a killing while providing a temporary appearance of "benefit" to help the standard of living keep on advancing: the credit card was popularized. It was advertised constantly. And debt grew as the standard of living kept up. Then the debt bubble burst in 2008 - 2009."

It's called "living within your means." Taking responsibility for your own financial situation/condition. Nobody said everybody must or had live like the Joneses. Part of the blame goes to those lending institutions that played the pyramid scheme to package those loans to make more money. That's called "greed," and it backfired. The only problem was that the government bailed out the banks, because they were too big to fail. When that happened, the big shots of the banks got huge bonuses paid by the taxpayers.

Salaries remained stagnant, because the US must compete in the world marketplace, and the salaries in the US was high compared to other countries. For any country's wages to remain high, it must provide products and services that everybody wants. To remain competitive, developed economies began to use more robots to cut cost. It's also about quality and cost.

Early in the past century, our country produced many apparel products. What happened in the intervening years was that the cost of labor in the US became prohibitive, and most apparel products were offshored to other countries where labor cost was much cheaper. From CNBC: More than 97 percent of apparel and 98 percent of shoes sold in the U.S. are made overseas, according to the American Apparel & Footwear Association. During the 1960s, roughly 95 percent of apparel worn in the U.S. was made domestically.

Look at the car industry. The US used to produce 100% of cars bought in the US when Henry Ford produced cars. Foreign cars have taken over the US market, and even American brands have some parts made in other countries. It's the same with airplanes. http://time.com/4677817/american-cars-brands-manufacturing/

Many companies in Silicon Valley where we live are always looking for workers, but most require a college education. Since they can't find enough domestically educated workers in the right fields, they hire many from India, Hong Kong and Taiwan. They also pay green card holders lower wages. The problem with that is that the cost of living in Silicon Valley is very high. A home less than 1000 feet can cost $1 million. Rents are over $3,000 per month. That's one of the reasons high tech companies are moving elsewhere in the country. Many are moving to Texas and New York. We probably have one of the highest concentration of college grads in our area, many with graduate degrees. I read an article recently in the San Jose Mercury News about a professional couple having difficulty finding a place to live. Many school districts in our area provide housing subsidies for teachers, because a teacher's salary is not enough. It's still a nice place to live; we have easy access to the mountains and the Pacific Ocean, San Francisco and the Napa-Sonoma wine country with a moderate climate. Some who have moved here from the north complain that they miss the seasons.

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@cicerone imposter,

Here's a good article on the subject of the cost of living in Silicon Valley.
https://www.cnet.com/news/could-you-afford-to-live-comfortably-in-silicon-valley/

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@cicerone imposter,

It sounds like you're saying American workers should take a paycut and accept poor working conditions. The vast majority of money saved isn't passed on to the consumer it's trousered by the filthy rich who put it offshore in places like the Cayman Islands.

During the post war boom the living standards of the American bluecollar worker were something to be proud about. Now you seem to be wanting them to live like underpaid Chinese workers. That's a race to the bottom and the only people who benefit are the filthy rich.

That's what 3rd World countries are like, an extremely wealthy elite making up less than 1% of the population while the rest scrape by on less than a dollar a day.

1 Reply

@izzythepush,

Can you direct me to where I said American workers should take a pay cut and accept poor working conditions? You really don't know me. I have worked union jobs, and have supported unions. Unions have also benefited nonunion workers. I know the history of work in this country having been part of the work force doing labor on farms and in management positions.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

What are you saying here then, if the costs of American labour are so prohibitive? What's your solution if not paycuts?

Quote:

What happened in the intervening years was that the cost of labor in the US became prohibitive, and most apparel products were offshored to other countries where labor cost was much cheaper. From CNBC: More than 97 percent of apparel and 98 percent of shoes sold in the U.S. are made overseas, according to the American Apparel & Footwear Association. During the 1960s, roughly 95 percent of apparel worn in the U.S. was made domestically.

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@izzythepush,

I'm talking about the reality of what happened in this country. I once worked for Florsheim Shoe Company when we used to produce shoes in Chicago. It got to the point that the labor cost became prohibitive, so they started having their shoes made in Asia. Florsheim Shoe prices were one of the highest in the country, and it was impossible to continue raising the cost of shoes based on US labor cost. In order to survive, they had no choice but to offshore their shoe production. That's part of the 98% of shoes sold in the US. I started working for Florsheim Shoes as a Field Auditor working in the seven western states in the mid 1960s. After 3.5 years, I was promoted to Audit Manager, and we had to move to Chicago. I still have some Florsheim Shoes that still looks new, and I wear them only on special occasions. I now buy Rockport, because they match the comfort of Florsheims for me.
Florsheim started producing shoes in Asia after I left the company. They declared bankruptcy some years ago, and the brothers who now live in New York bought back the company. I still see some Florsheim Shoes in stores, but not many.

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@izzythepush,

izzythepush wrote:

What are you saying here then, if the costs of American labour are so prohibitive? What's your solution if not paycuts?

Quote:
What happened in the intervening years was that the cost of labor in the US became prohibitive, and most apparel products were offshored to other countries where labor cost was much cheaper. From CNBC: More than 97 percent of apparel and 98 percent of shoes sold in the U.S. are made overseas, according to the American Apparel & Footwear Association. During the 1960s, roughly 95 percent of apparel worn in the U.S. was made domestically.

It's possible that he's not offering a solution or even stating that a solution is needed.

Globalization is not a bad thing, at all.

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@maporsche,

How am I supposed to offer a solution for the apparel industry? The solution has already taken place. Our country now produces high tech products, and Apple has become the richest company in the world. Globalization is a good thing: It's called "comparative advantage." We produce high demand, good quality products while being able to buy clothing at reasonable prices.

1 Reply

@maporsche,

maporsche wrote:

Globalization is not a bad thing, at all.

It's a two edged sword, whether or not it's good or bad depends on whether governments focus on benefitting the people or the moneyed elite.

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@ossobucotemp,

Hi ossobucotemp, Could you select an easier name? LOL!!!
"How can this be?"
I know exactly what you mean. Where did it all go??!!!
Now. Do us all a favor and define "troll" please. Thanks.

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

It's called "living within your means." Taking responsibility for your own financial situation/condition. Nobody said everybody must or had live like the Joneses.

Whoa. Wait a minute. Let's have a little structure here. You're replying to a part of my post where I was discussing the banks' push to increase consumption by creating consumer debt. So I was discussing what happened. But you have made a leap to what should have happened and blame the consumer. I'm not interested in blaming the consumer. (At this point a typical rightie attacks me as a likely irresponsible "taker" on welfare. Let's se what happens here.)

Quote:

Part of the blame goes to those lending institutions that played the pyramid scheme to package those loans to make more money. That's called "greed," and it backfired. The only problem was that the government bailed out the banks, because they were too big to fail. When that happened, the big shots of the banks got huge bonuses paid by the taxpayers.

Yes. That is true. But you're choosing to look at the details. My "thirty-thousand-foot view of the big picture" isn't changed by this truth that you stated, so this isn't really a response to anything I said... It's a "picking apart" of what I said and analyzing detail. And again I say it is true.

Quote:

Salaries remained stagnant, because the US must compete in the world marketplace, and the salaries in the US was high compared to other countries.

Here's where we part company. Increased incomes were earned, so this excuse for stagnant salaries isn't valid. Incomes increased but it all went to the top. It was not shared with the workers who shared in the production and had a big role in the increase in productivity of the last 30 years. So "need to compete" is not the issue and cause of stagnant wages.

Quote:

For any country's wages to remain high, it must provide products and services that everybody wants. To remain competitive, developed economies began to use more robots to cut cost. It's also about quality and cost.

But use of robots doesn't have to result in stagnant wages either. You're worried about remaining competitive but that wasn't such a desperate necessity if so much additional income went to the top and profits were maintained too.

Quote:

Early in the past century, our country produced many apparel products. What happened in the intervening years was that the cost of labor in the US became prohibitive, and most apparel products were offshored to other countries where labor cost was much cheaper.

I have a "Bernie" T-shirt. It was union-made in the USA. It is the best-made T-shirt I have.... -quality material, well stitched, dolor persists through many washings, ... -and its cost was very competitive. Yet union workers typically are paid better than non-union. Also, analysts have found that worker owned and controlled co-ops have higher productivity, morale, sales and wages. Rutgers University, which has studied the topic extensively, has found that employee ownership boosted company productivity by an average of 4 percent, while profits went up 14 percent.
https://vtdigger.org/2017/05/17/senators-look-take-vermont-worker-owner-effort-nationwide/

Quote:

Look at the car industry. The US used to produce 100% of cars bought in the US when Henry Ford produced cars. Foreign cars have taken over the US market, and even American brands have some parts made in other countries. It's the same with airplanes. http://time.com/4677817/american-cars-brands-manufacturing/

Yes, they abandoned the very workers that made them great and moved overseas for more profits.

Quote:

Many companies in Silicon Valley where we live are always looking for workers, but ......

Again, details. . . . -details that don't have any effect on what I posted.

Thanks for the civil conversation.

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Quote:

CI said: "Since they can't find enough domestically educated workers in the right fields, they hire many from India, Hong Kong and Taiwan."

Can you back "can't find enough" with reliable documentation?

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@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

How am I supposed to offer a solution for the apparel industry? The solution has already taken place. Our country now produces high tech products, and Apple has become the richest company in the world. Globalization is a good thing: It's called "comparative advantage." We produce high demand, good quality products while being able to buy clothing at reasonable prices.

In Cuba, doctors earn around $80/month but an average apartment costs about $115/month outside the city center, and a typical electric bill is about $4.50/month. The point is that prices and incomes adjust to the economic need, more or less. So global competition doesn't have to force loss of jobs or poverty here when we have various economic "tools" to alter the conditions.

1 Reply

@Senter,

You don't need to educate me about Cuba. I've been there several times, and have friends there. I know Hiroshi Robaina who owns one of the largest tobacco farms in Cuba. My travel buddy, Alexander Ogilvie (Canadian, but lives in Mexico), and I have traveled all across the country, and have friends in many places. The average earnings for Cubans is about $20 a month. Most live in old and unmaintained, unsafe housing. We know Havana quite well, because that's where we have done most of our walking along the Malacon. We used to stay at the Melia Havana, but more recently have stayed at Parque Central Hotel. We have also stayed at the Nacional Hotel where it was the popular place for movie stars and VIPs in the 1950s. We go there to sit in the back patio to have our Cuban cigar and mojitos to enjoy the scenery of the ocean.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

We like to go to the bars in Cuba, because we have made friends from many places including Moscow. A guy we met from the Dominican Republic still keeps in touch. He's a police investigator.
On one of our latest trips to Cuba, we saw Susan Sarandon at the La Guarida in Havana. She walked into one of the small dining rooms in the restaurant, turned around and walked out. I was surprised to see her. If I had my wits, I would have invited her to join us.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Here's a list of the places we have visited in Cuba. Pinar del Rio, Matanzas, Varadero, Santa Clara, Cienfuegos, Trinidad, Bay of Pigs, Sancti Spiritus, Santiago de Cuba and Baracoa.

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Some social programs in the US are not part of socialism itself.

Democrats are dead wrong with their claims that they gave such programs for the benefit of society in general.

Some social programs in the US were created by rich people to protect themselves.

______________________________________________

Lets go first to countries of the "third world" (having complete ignorance about what countries are catalogued as "second world countries")

These countries don't have social programs, like welfare, food stamps, public housing, etc.

These are millions of people who live in cities of poor countries.

How do they survive? How people without income survive? How they manage to have food and shelter?

Easy.

Stealing.

You visit third world countries and the news are full of robberies, assaults, killing for money, breaking ups in hospitals, stores, anywhere.

The windshield blades of your car will be robbed. Next day, a child will knock you door and offer you used wiper blades for a few cents. You know those wiper blades are yours, but you follow the game and pay, otherwise, if you denounce that those wiper blades are yours and you will call the police, that night you have broken windows in your house or in your car.

You travel to a third world country by yourself and rent a car. The guy who rents the car will call his partners to tell them the hotel you are going to. You will be stop in your way to the hotel, you will lose your luggage, your passport, your money, and possibly the rented car. In many times, even police is involved in the robbery, if the burglars are caught, they will be free after paying money to the police.

You can't leave a chair, water hose, tools, or anything in front of your house for a minute, somebody will pass by and take it.

Many cities in third world countries are clean, no paper, no bottles, no trash in the streets. Poor people pick up everything to be sold in recycling centers. They go beyond the reasonable, they steal the utility metal covers from streets to be sold in recycling centers.

Stealing is the daily crime in third world countries.

Here in America, if the government cuts off social programs, the US society shall be under the same condition of poor countries, having the poor stealing everything from people, houses, churches, stores, you name it.

This is why, in the US always will be social programs, to keep the burglars away, to force them to steal less and to themselves, like stealing drugs one from another.

1 Reply

@cameronleon,

I'm not sure where you learned American history, but your opinions are flawed.
Signed Into Law
On August 14, 1935 President Roosevelt signed the bill into law at a ceremony in the White House Cabinet Room.

Congressional Vote Totals By Party

HOUSE (4/19/35) Yes:
Democrats 284 Republicans 81

SENATE (6/19/35) Yes:
Democrats 60 Republicans 16

That was a gift to me from the US Government, because I was born on July 2, 1935.

1 Reply

@cicerone imposter,

Quote:

I'm not sure where you learned American history, but your opinions are flawed...
...That was a gift to me from the US Government, because I was born on July 2, 1935.

I think that the one who never understood American history its you

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/life_26.html

During the Great Depression, crime came in many forms. People across the country read newspaper stories about gangsters. Thousands of people didn't have a job and needed money and food. Labor strikes by miners and autoworkers sometimes turned violent.

http://www.livinghistoryfarm.org/farminginthe30s/media/life2601.jpg

https://www.lycoming.edu/schemata/pdfs/Marshall_ECON236.pdf

In 1929, the most severe depression in the history of the Western World hit the United States. Many Americans, because of the years of prosperity in the past, did not expect it.

The depression lasted ten years until coming to an end in 1939. The recession began with the collapse of the New York Stock Exchange in October of 1929, mostly due to the imbalance in the economy that was obscured by the euphoria of the 1920s. Unemployment was drastically rising
and eventually escalated to a 25 percent unemployment rate.

Throughout this period, unemployment benefits did not exist,

so as the duration of an individual’s unemployment extended (and this usually lasted a very long time),the people of America would resort to extreme measures in order to provide for their families...

...The Great Depression was a time hard felt by all Americans and people throughout the world. It is seen as a time of great poverty across the nation that forced many Americans into unemployment and poor health. As a result, many Americans resorted to crime as a means of bettering themselves and their economic situation.

Theft, prostitution, and alcohol related crime began to increase with the recession.

https://prezi.com/sok8bre8a0q-/crimes-during-the-great-depression/

The hardships that came along with The Great Depression gave the unemployed reasons to commit petty theft so they could save their family. Although these crimes started small, they continued to gradually get worse.

As you can see, in an era when there weren't unemployment benefits in America, theft was the reaction of poor people to buy food, find shelter...

The rich people noticed it.

Then, the rich idealized the way to stop the stealing, because it was affecting banks and manufacturing in general.

With a government in bankruptcy, the rich found the way to cause the government to borrow money and give it to the people in a new program called social services.

With this initiative, the poor people stop stealing when they started to receive benefits from the government.

The rich obtained double benefit, which was no more thefts plus making profit with the loans given to the US government, which were mostly with high interest.

___________________________________________

At the end of the day, of course that many people not only obtained benefits but abused of the system.

For example, Public Housing was created as a temporary shelter at low price for low income families and individuals.

I knew families who have lived in Public Housing for generations. The mother with new born children all the time, the older daughter living in the same Public Housing complex with children as well. Mother and daughter "making extra money" from boyfriends who live illegally in those apartments, ha ha ha... and no way how to control it... even with today's technology and cameras in those living complexes, they manage to keep doing it.

Same with food stamps, medical services, etc.

Any new administration take away those social programs, and what it happened in the Great depression will be nothing in comparison to what can happen in today cities.

At least, when you were born, even in cities, people used to have chicken in their backyards and have something to eat even when working days were sporadic... but today, no chicken, no money, no unemployment services, no welfare, no food stamps... beware!

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I'm not sure what history you are talking about. True socialism is alive and doing well in the Basque part of Spain. The socialist business has been around four 60 years or so and is the sixth largest business in Spain. They even own their own university to help people change jobs according to demand.

The board of directors is made up entirely of workers (people who actually produce). Some businesses have supervisors, but the supervisors are hired by, and work for, the producers. There is a limit, agreed on by producers voting, that no one, including managers gets more than six times the entry wage.

Scandinavia is pretty much socialized and is the most economically stable region in the world. It also scores very high on most measures of happiness. (I don't know for sure, but I'm pretty confident that they consistently stomp the hell out of the USA.) German businesses with over 5000 employees are required by law to have half of the board of directors chosen from the producers and by the producers. (There is an exception, if the board has an odd number of members, the odd person is chosen by stockholders.) Germany is out producing the hell out of the USA.
And, while our balance of trade is negative and large, theirs is positive and large.

What we think of as Communism (such as was practiced in Russia) is no more that state controlled workplaces. This has about as much to do with Marxism as my throbbing toe has to do with the price of eggs in China. The former USSR got labeled communist as a propaganda measure as much as anything else.

I suggest that you read "The Communist Manifesto" before commenting on its contents. Try to remember, when faced with conflicting ides on a subject you are interested in, it is almost always good to do a little research before entering the debate.

1 Reply

Why do so many Americans want socialism (and support Bernie Sanders' Idealism)?

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