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Senator Chris Murphy's Gun Control Filibuster Leads To Vote

 
 
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 12:44 pm
Here is a link to the following article:

http://blog.constitutioncenter.org/2014/01/constitution-check-are-there-no-limits-on-second-amendment-rights/

In only one place in the Constitution’s Bill of Rights is there a provision that flatly bars the government from regulating one of the protected rights. That is in the First Amendment, declaring that “Congress shall make no law respecting” the rights listed in that Amendment. The “right to keep and bear arms” is not one of those rights; it is contained in the Second Amendment.

The Second Amendment’s text, of course, does say that the right it protects “shall not be infringed.” Is that the same thing as saying that government may pass “no law respecting” gun rights?

Let us suppose that, constitutionally speaking, those two phrases do mean the same thing. But, as history has shown, there if flexibility in constitutional meaning: “No law,” for example, does not really mean “no law.”

The only place that Americans can look for a binding interpretation of what the Constitution’s words mean – other than to the people acting through the amendment process to make a new constitutional declaration – are the decisions of the U.S. Supreme Court.

The reality is that one can look in vain throughout the entire history of the First Amendment for any indication that the rights to religious and press freedom, the right to free speech, and the right to complain to the government about one’s “grievances” are absolute rights, beyond any type of official regulation.

Over the time since 1791, when the Bill if Rights was ratified, the Supreme Court has given its blessing to an entire governing edifice that regulates First Amendment rights: the laws of libel and defamation, limits on publishing secret military strategy, regulation of “obscene” and “indecent” expression, and limits on “hate speech.” Famously, the court has said that one has no right to shout “Fire!” in a crowded theater. Even the right to worship freely sometimes is curbed by laws that regulate conduct that has religious meaning.

In contrast to the First Amendment, there is very little constitutional history about the meaning of the Second Amendment. In fact, until just five years ago, the “right to keep and bear arms” was not generally understand as a personal right to have a gun, even for self-defense. It was only in 2008 that the Supreme Court declared that such a personal right does, indeed, exist.

That decision, in the case of District of Columbia v. Heller, is – so far – the most important decision the court has ever issued on the scope of the “right to keep and bear arms.” But in that very ruling, the Court said explicitly: “Like most rights, the right secured by the Second Amendment is not unlimited.” It went on to say just as clearly that it was not barring the government from imposing “reasonable regulation” on that right.

Is a “reasonable regulation” of gun rights, then, an “infringement” on those rights? If the word “infringement” means to encroach on something, as one does when one “trespasses” on someone else’s private property, that does not support the idea that Second Amendment rights are absolutes. Government can “trespass” on private property to put out a fire, for example.

Still, the debate goes on about when, or if, government should have the power to regulate gun rights. The statements quoted above, from two gun rights enthusiasts, suggest that even within that community, there can be disagreement about whether the time has come to agree on some “rational points” about the Second Amendment.

The Supreme Court, of course, could re-enter into that national debate if it felt a need to clarify just what kind of “regulation” of gun rights is allowed without being found to violate the Second Amendment.

Up to now, however, the Court does not seem to sense that need. It has issued only one significant gun rights decision since the 2008 ruling, and that 2010 decision in McDonald v. Chicago expanded the personal right to a gun to exist at the state and local level, as well as at the federal level. The court did not go further to explain what it would allow in gun regulation by state and local governments.

It has been asked, every year since then, to take on a variety of new cases, to answer some of the lingering questions: does the personal right to have a gun extend beyond one’s own home, who can be forbidden to have a gun at all, when can a gun be carried in public in a concealed way, what types of guns or ammunition can be regulated or even banned, what places in a community are too sensitive or too prone to violence to allow guns in them, how can the government trace a gun that has been used in a violent incident, how freely should gun shows be allowed to operate?

However, the Court has resisted giving an answer to any follow-up questions. And what that has meant, in the national conversation over gun rights, is that anyone’s argument about the extent of those rights is just as good as anyone else’s, and neither side needs to listen to the arguments that the other side makes.

Gun control will go on being an issue in politics and in government, at all levels, but the constitutional rules that could shape how for government may go remain unmade.

Lyle Denniston is the National Constitution Center’s adviser on constitutional literacy. He has reported on the Supreme Court for 55 years, currently covering it for SCOTUSblog, an online clearinghouse of information about the Supreme Court’s work.



0 Replies
 
Finn dAbuzz
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 01:09 pm
Murphy admitted that all of the controls he's advocating would not have stopped the tragedies in Orlando or his State.

Now he, like every other progressive drone in America, will be saying "we can't fall into that trap."

Some dick making 6 figures figured this out and they will all follow. Just watch, then tell me I'm wrong.

If you are cynical about the right-wing in our national politics (and you should be) why aren't you cynical about the left?

Children.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 06:50 pm
@farmerman,
I seem to remember they had a special name for a mashed thumb, but Ive forgot what it was.
RABEL222
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 06:52 pm
@Finn dAbuzz,
I guess well never know now will we?
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 07:23 pm
@oralloy,
oralloy wrote:

M-1 Garand I had in basic used an 8 round clip.

I'm curious, I recently had someone tell me that loading a clip into a Garand is a much slower process than changing a detachable magazine on an assault rifle.

I was skeptical of that claim, but I have no actual experience with Garands, and the other party implied that they did have actual experience with Garands.

Is there something about them that would make them slower to load a clip than one would assume?[/quote]

I was later issued an M - 14 with 20 round magazine. I think the reloading procedure was quicker with the magazine, mostly because it's much longer and easier to grip. Of course, if you're one of the ones getting your thumb caught in the action when the clip releases the bolt lock, you become slower with the smashed thumb, as farmerman alluded to. Not only painful, but you might become a bit "gun shy", so to speak.

Actually, I made the reference to clip to point out someone was opposing the 20 round magazine without the slightest knowledge of the difference between a clip and a magazine.
0 Replies
 
seac
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 07:51 pm
@RABEL222,
The mashed thumb was called the "Garand Thumb". My uncles sure did remember that when they came back from WW2.
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 07:54 pm
@seac,
We called it M - 1 thumb.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 10:15 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
a garand loads from the top, and that spring in the receiver is capable of really hurting your thumb. Its as several step process involving holding the bolt back while loading the clip. When practiced, its fairly easy but practicing causes everyone pain. I dont know of anyone who has one whose been able to avoid the banged up thumb

My garands are two sweet ladies I inherited from my dad who had one of his own in the Pacific and one he acquired later. The "Burma Gun" is in a glass case over the fireplace hearth in a guest bedroom. The other is in a gun case. I last fired em about 10 years ago, (And banged up my thumb for forgetting the way to hold the bolt back.
RABEL222 wrote:
I seem to remember they had a special name for a mashed thumb, but Ive forgot what it was.
roger wrote:
I was later issued an M - 14 with 20 round magazine. I think the reloading procedure was quicker with the magazine, mostly because it's much longer and easier to grip. Of course, if you're one of the ones getting your thumb caught in the action when the clip releases the bolt lock, you become slower with the smashed thumb, as farmerman alluded to. Not only painful, but you might become a bit "gun shy", so to speak.
seac wrote:
The mashed thumb was called the "Garand Thumb". My uncles sure did remember that when they came back from WW2.
roger wrote:
We called it M - 1 thumb.

Thanks guys.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 10:16 pm
@parados,
parados wrote:
You are wrong when you state that the government can't impose arms control of any kind.

Feel free to point out any place where I've ever said anything even remotely like that.

If I wanted to search, I could come up with hundreds of instances on a2k where I expressly said the exact opposite.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 10:17 pm
@farmerman,
farmerman wrote:
The new attempts at the ban have been pretty much a single issue basis to define assault weapons (Since the whole term really is a made up term for late news), and the issue is a pretty much a semi, able to shoot lotsa shells (by means of the receiver able to accept a high cap clip.

This is incorrect. Assault weapons bans are entirely about harmless cosmetic features. They do nothing to prevent receivers from accepting a high capacity clip.


farmerman wrote:
"We all understand the cycniism involved with calling several features "cosmetic". The NRA mensch are wedded to it now.

There is no cynicism. I am attempting to get you to realize the truth.

I've always figured that you knew that assault weapons bans were only about cosmetic features.

I always thought you were actually out to ban those cosmetic features for some reason that I couldn't fathom. And my responses to you were based on the belief that you knew you were trying to ban cosmetic features.

It's just now dawned on me a couple days ago that you might not understand what assault weapons bans are about.

Maybe I won't be able to get you to understand. But at least next time you support a ban on assault weapons I will know that you aren't actually trying to ban harmless cosmetic features.


farmerman wrote:
I like the single feture def of assault eapons , (a simple term always trumps the more complex)

The trouble is, that's not how the law defines assault weapons. The law defines assault weapons by way of harmless cosmetic features.
0 Replies
 
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 11:53 pm
Here is a link to following article:

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/us-supreme-court-rejects-challenge-to-state-assault-weapon-bans/ar-AAhkQ4r?ocid=ansmsnnews11


U.S. Supreme court rejects challenge to state assault weapon bans


The U.S. Supreme Court on Monday left in place gun control laws in New York and Connecticut that ban assault weapons like the one used in last week's massacre at an Orlando nightclub, rejecting a challenge brought by gun rights advocates.

The justices declined to hear an appeal of an October ruling by the New York-based 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that upheld laws prohibiting semiautomatic weapons and large capacity magazines in the two northeastern states.

The laws in New York and Connecticut, among the strictest in the nation, were enacted after a gunman with a semiautomatic rifle killed 20 young children and six educators in 2012 at Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown, Connecticut. In total, seven states and the District of Columbia ban semi-automatic rifles.

The New York and Connecticut laws were challenged by pro-gun groups including the Coalition of Connecticut Sportsmen and the New York State Rifle and Pistol Association as well as individual gun owners. The appeals court consolidated the two cases and upheld the law.

The Connecticut challengers appealed to the Supreme Court while the New York ones did not. However, an individual gun owner, Douglas Kampfer, who had a parallel legal challenge to the New York law that also lost at the appeals court level asked the Supreme Court to hear his case.

(Reporting by Lawrence Hurley; Editing by Will Dunham)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 11:58 pm
@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:
U.S. Supreme court rejects challenge to state assault weapon bans

Luckily the NRA is here to defend our Constitution even when the courts will not.

When Trump is elected, he will nominate justices who will respect the Constitution.
0 Replies
 
roger
 
  1  
Reply Mon 20 Jun, 2016 11:59 pm
@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:

The justices declined to hear an appeal of an October ruling by the New York-based 2nd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals that upheld laws prohibiting semiautomatic weapons and large capacity magazines in the two northeastern states.


This is either poor writing, or I can see where this is going. "Semiautomatic weapon" includes a large number of handguns sold in this country, and I presume it's by a large majority.
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 12:17 am
@roger,
roger wrote:
This is either poor writing, or I can see where this is going. "Semiautomatic weapon" includes a large number of handguns sold in this country, and I presume it's by a large majority.

Both. In this immediate case it is poor writing, but the long-term goal does include all guns, bit by bit by bit.

This thing about yesterday's refusal to hear the appeal is kind of a nothing story. We've already known for a good five years or so now that we only had 4 votes on the Supreme Court in favor of enforcing the Second Amendment (3 now that Scalia has died).

The Supreme Court probably won't hear another Second Amendment case until we once again have 5 votes in favor of enforcing the Second Amendment.

If you want that to happen anytime soon, work to make sure the Republican nominee wins this November, even if that happens to be Trump. If Scalia is replaced by someone who cares about the Second Amendment, and then Kennedy/Ginsburg/Breyer (any one of them) is replaced by someone who cares about the Second Amendment, we'll be back to five votes in favor of upholding the Constitution.

If Hillary or Obama chooses Scalia's replacement, and then Hillary replaces the aging Liberals on the court with fresh young Liberals, it'll be a long time before we once again have five votes in favor of upholding the Constitution.
Real Music
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 12:45 am
Some people due to some of Scalia's public statements believe that he may have ruled in some manner for gun control. The devil is in the details. Since he is dead, we can never know for sure how he would have ruled in various gun control cases. Maybe he would have ruled (for) in some cases and ruled (against) in other cases. We will never know. Here is one of those public statements on the topic of gun control and the 2nd amendment.

MontereyJack
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 12:48 am
@oralloy,
Only problem with your argument, is that it is the liberals who are in favor of upholding the Constitution and the gun zealots who've twisted it and rewritten it. Anyone who's conversant with the English language can clearly see that it is talking about the militia, which is what the Founding Fathers favored since A. they had no money to pay a standing army and B. they were exceedingly leery of standing armies anyway having just been subjected to the Brit one. The four liberal justices had it right, and now that Scalia's malign hand is no longer in play, and since President Clinton is likely to apppoint someome like Elizabeth Warren 'll be ab le to get down to the serious business of walking back Heller (People may dislike Hillary, but they LOATHE Trump. He's a loser already(and won't the GOP be sorry they stonewalled Obama then)
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 02:09 am
@Real Music,
Real Music wrote:
Some people due to some of Scalia's public statements believe that he may have ruled in some manner for gun control. The devil is in the details. Since he is dead, we can never know for sure how he would have ruled in various gun control cases. Maybe he would have ruled (for) in some cases and ruled (against) in other cases. We will never know. Here is one of those public statements on the topic of gun control and the 2nd amendment.

Good grief. There is no mystery about what Scalia would have allowed.

Strict Scrutiny is not such a hard concept to understand.
0 Replies
 
oralloy
 
  -1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 02:10 am
@MontereyJack,
MontereyJack wrote:
Only problem with your argument, is that it is the liberals who are in favor of upholding the Constitution

The Liberals are always the ones who hate the Constitution and rule against it. It is the Conservatives who strive to uphold the Constitution.


MontereyJack wrote:
and the gun zealots who've twisted it and rewritten it.

The jurisprudence is very clear that people have a right to have guns for self defense, and the right to carry guns when they go about in public.

There is a strong case to be made that this right is covered within the Second Amendment, but if it is not, then the Ninth Amendment provides equal protections for the right.

The only ones who are twisting and rewriting anything are the Liberals who like to pretend that this is not so.


MontereyJack wrote:
Anyone who's conversant with the English language can clearly see that it is talking about the militia, which is what the Founding Fathers favored

One logical flaw in trying to confine the Second Amendment to the militia is that you would have to first have a militia in order to do that. The Liberals forgot to have the government set one up.

And as noted above, if the Second Amendment excludes the self defense right, the Ninth Amendment protects it equally well.


MontereyJack wrote:
the militia, which is what the Founding Fathers favored since A. they had no money to pay a standing army and B. they were exceedingly leery of standing armies anyway having just been subjected to the Brit one.

It was B alone. A is nonsense.


MontereyJack wrote:
The four liberal justices had it right,

No, they willfully ignored the Constitution, as Liberals are wont to do.


MontereyJack wrote:
and now that Scalia's malign hand is no longer in play, and since President Clinton is likely to apppoint someome like Elizabeth Warren 'll be ab le to get down to the serious business of walking back Heller (People may dislike Hillary, but they LOATHE Trump. He's a loser already(and won't the GOP be sorry they stonewalled Obama then)

In other words, if anyone cares about the Constitution, they need to make sure the Republicans win in November, because Hillary means to do away with our civil rights.
0 Replies
 
parados
 
  3  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 07:00 am
@oralloy,
Some instances where you have said government can't impose any gun control of any kind.

Quote:

Every single time gun legislation has been characterized as "reasonable" it has turned out to be an outrageous violation of our rights.

Are you arguing that you agree with "unreasonable" gun control laws?

Quote:

It's bad enough when they pass unconstitutional bans on certain guns.


Quote:

They always claim that, but they are lying. They always try to ban guns every chance they get.


Quote:

They have no choice but to allow it. People have rights here in America, no matter how much the Democrats don't like that.


You continually argue that all gun control legislation is unconstitutional. The only conclusion is that you think government can't impose control of any kind.
revelette2
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2016 08:21 am
Failing to pass sensible gun measures is not unfortunately a partisan problem. There are always democrat holdouts who are strong anti-gun control. I think those who care about this issue beyond the days of the tragedy, should research who these democrats are and the next time they run against another democrat, vote them out.

Senate rejects series of gun measures

 

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