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Freedom of choice, speech, thought...etc are all illusions?

 
 
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2016 02:33 pm
I had a previous comment about how our Freedom of Speech, although guaranteed by the constitution, is really not free. Now comes to think of it, freedom itself is an illusion unless:

1. Scientists, including Einstein, is mostly wrong
2. There's no God, no aliens (or whatever supreme beings you call them)

The concept of God cannot be reconciled with freedom of choice. Because by definition, if a choice you made is already perceived by someone, say, some entity (let's call it God) that can see the past, present and future, it is not "free". It simply because God has already seen it. Suppose you are at a crossroad and decided that you want to go left. However, God already knew you were going left so this event point in the fabric of time-space is a fixed point -- it cannot be altered even if you make a DIFFERENT choice -- it's predestined for you already.

Einstein says time is just another dimension and beings like us just move through it. If it's just "like" a spatial dimension inseparable from our observable (x, y, z) plane, then everything in this dimension also already existed. We are just waiting to "experience" it as we move through. To grasp this concept, suppose you watch a movie and accidentally skipped to the end. You found that the main character died. Regardless what happens in between, it is predestined that the main character dies. So, imagine yourself as the main character in that movie -- you think you are making a series of choices to avoid your ultimate demise, but you cannot. In this example, the 4th dimension of time is like your DVD player -- the main character is just simply moving through this extra dimension that he cannot observe directly.

The only way that we are truly free is that NO other entity can ever observe what happens next and that time does not behave like a spatial dimension -- it gets written only as events occur.

Therefore, how can we have freedom? It's not quite compatible with religion, and also not evidenced by science.

Please do not reply with unintelligent comment. I am not here to bash religion, science or act like a 3rd grader.

 
View best answer, chosen by Angelgz2
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2016 03:08 pm
@Angelgz2,
Even if foreknowledge is true about God, seeing is not control.
It's not like a pool player who 'sees' the 4 ball going into the corner pocket before he takes the shot.

God leaves the shot to you. Make that shot or blow it. It's all you.
0 Replies
 
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Thu 2 Jun, 2016 10:33 pm
@Angelgz2,
The Omnipotent Being can see your choice before you make it, but you don't know that. You don't know that he saw it or what he saw. The choice is fully your own. It seems like a contradiction, but it's not. Think about what went into your decision making. You weighed your options, picked the best one under the circumstances, made your decision. Those things wouldn't change because the O.B. saw it beforehand.
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 07:07 am
@TomTomBinks,
True, but I think being free is ultimately our ability to change the outcome of a specific event. The Omnipotent being saw my choices, and tells me "don't go this way, it's a cliff and you'll fall off." However, he already saw my choice so even if I heard him, it's predestined that I won't change my choice. That goes back to my point that all my choices are already fixed points in time-space. Regardless of what I do in between those points will not change the ultimate outcome.

It's like if you work so hard trying to go to Harvard. You scored 2400 on SAT and a 4.5 GPA which a load of volunteer experiences. You think to yourself I'd never be rejected. However, the O.B. already saw you getting rejected. Thus, there's nothing you can do despite all your effort. Your past actions aren't influencing future outcomes.
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 08:46 am
@Angelgz2,
As long as your not aware of the outcome, you still make the decision. If you want to classify that as an illusion, OK. But as long as the illusion is complete, what's the difference?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Fri 3 Jun, 2016 12:02 pm
@Angelgz2,
Quote:
The Omnipotent being saw my choices, and tells me "don't go this way, it's a cliff and you'll fall off."
Now you have introduced something new into the equation - communication, rather than just observation.

Are you complaining about the help? You don't have to listen or take the advice you know.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2016 09:52 am
@Angelgz2,
Einstein was way more than wrong - He was funded to be wrong.
Peoples' perception of God is also wrong.
If you accept what is taught you, and that beiing taught is flawed - You now reside in a false-reality.

Ostriches DON'T hide their heads in the sand - A. They'd suffocate. B. They don't inhabit sandy environments.
Your hair and finger/toe nails do not continue to grow beyond death.
Flouride is a poison and calcifies your pineal gland - And should NEVER be ingested, rubbed on your teeth or be an ingredient of baby-formula or drinking water.
Rubbing a toad on a wart does NOT eradicate the wart.

Great question, btw.
ALWAYS question what others simply accept!
0 Replies
 
Brandon9000
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2016 10:00 am
I find it absolutely fascinating that the posters who declare Einstein's Theory of Relativity wrong, never once refer to anything in his relativity papers.
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 4 Jun, 2016 10:31 am
@Brandon9000,
That's because you limit yourself to your own flawed-acceptance.
And He, who is attached to his conditioned ideal - Will defend that ideal, at all costs.
My Thread - "THE GREAT DECEPTION" has a verifiable link that, dare you partake, will introduce you to your delusional acceptances.
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2016 09:57 am
@TomTomBinks,
The difference is that I know I am in control of my life and can change outcomes vs if someone has already observed my future, all is rather pointless. I will be "destined" to experience certain events and there's nothing I can do to change it. I am not in control but rather just a passenger in a "vehicle" called "time".
0 Replies
 
Angelgz2
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2016 10:02 am
@Leadfoot,
Well, that's the point - you are going to listen or not listen is irrelevant. For those who believes God (again, not bashing religion in any way), I often hear them say "God communicated to me in [someway], and now I am where I am". You see how flawed this sentence is? The Omnipotent being has ALREADY seen what your choices would be, so therefore, regardless whether he communicates to you or not, the outcome is exactly the same. Thus, the Omnipotent being cannot lead you to a different future or outcome -- you are destined to be the way you are regardless of your choices.
Leadfoot
  Selected Answer
 
  3  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2016 10:38 am
@Angelgz2,
Quote:
Thus, the Omnipotent being cannot lead you to a different future or outcome -- you are destined to be the way you are regardless of your choices.
I'm guessing that God does have control of the dimension of time if he wanted to (and could therefore 'see' the future) but I think that his choice is to let it play out in 'real time'. You are free to make your choices any way you wish and he is free to enjoy seeing you making them.

You can see the future too, in a way. When you read a book, you could skip ahead and read the last page and know how it turns out. But why would you?

Also, the term 'omnipotent' is often attributed to God but that is not an established fact, only someone's conjecture or a popular myth. And it's not true on purely logical grounds. I think the imagined 'predestined' future of everyone is equally mythical.
Angelgz2
 
  2  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2016 12:11 pm
@Leadfoot,
Yes. That could be a potential way to resolve the paradox that you mentioned God also has a choice that is not to see into the future and let it play out. It could be thought of as Heisenberg's uncertainty principle such that the cat is both alive and dead until the box is open (Schrödinger 's cat experiment). If this is the case then future is in a probabilistic state and God could choose to "open the box" at any time and see the ultimate outcome. However, He doesn't choose so and thus reality remains at a probabilistic state to give us freedom.
0 Replies
 
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Mon 6 Jun, 2016 09:45 pm
@Leadfoot,
If your god isn't omnipotent and omniscient, what good is he? Is he just a powerful alien that, given enough time and technology we can someday defeat? if he is just a powerful being, how does he deserve our worship? If he's not omnipotent how did he create the universe? A god that is not all powerful is even more ridiculous then the god of the Bible!
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2016 06:00 am
@TomTomBinks,
How powerful would be good enough for you?
Would you worship a God who was so powerful that he could violate the rules of logic and reason?
TomTomBinks
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2016 09:21 am
@Leadfoot,
No, I would not. The whole concept of worship and praise is twisted. If that is what god requires of us, she is one screwed-up bitch.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Tue 7 Jun, 2016 09:50 am
@TomTomBinks,
Just showing you the absurdity of your 'omnipotence' requirement.

And I suspect you worship something, you just haven't specified what it is. It's whatever you put in first place in your life.
0 Replies
 
mark noble
 
  1  
Reply Sat 11 Jun, 2016 12:41 pm
@Leadfoot,
That's not foresight - It's skipping the story.
C'mon, Lead - Don't infuse stupidity into logic.
0 Replies
 
AugustineBrother
 
  1  
Reply Thu 30 Jun, 2016 08:58 am
@Angelgz2,
If they are illusions then your post is meaningless because you have not those things either. This is the great self-deception of that argument.
0 Replies
 
 

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