Detractors say the 220-page book, which discusses 35 verses from Islam's holy text, could convert Americans to the religion of terrorists blamed for the deaths of about 3,000 people on Sept. 11.
Posted above. Did you also know that a school district in CA was going to force kids to take a class on Islam? They were going to learn about Islam, take a Muslim name, pray to Allah and name a Jihad. Doesn't this sound like a violation of Church and State? Is it ok for Islam but not for Christianity or Judaism?
george, I do greatly appreciate your response and no, the quote I used was not gathered up to toss back at you as I stated I have heard/ read the same comment from various and sundry sources often when one has nothing else to say other than "I am right, you are wrong and if you would only open your eyes to MY truth you would see how wrong YOURS is" and that, my friend, is elitism at its worst. (and very Platonic)
Quote:Detractors say the 220-page book, which discusses 35 verses from Islam's holy text, could convert Americans to the religion of terrorists blamed for the deaths of about 3,000 people on Sept. 11.
Yeah, right. Do you seriously believe that a ton of people would be converted? This is one of the weakest justifications I have read for racism.
Quote:Posted above. Did you also know that a school district in CA was going to force kids to take a class on Islam? They were going to learn about Islam, take a Muslim name, pray to Allah and name a Jihad. Doesn't this sound like a violation of Church and State? Is it ok for Islam but not for Christianity or Judaism?
I doubt it. Link to evidence?
Cycloptichorn
Summary of eRumor:
The message says "Public Schools Embrace Islam - A Shocker." It focuses on seventh graders in Byron, California, and says that although students in a growing number of public schools cannot wear crosses or utter the name of Jesus, they are being required to attend an intensive three-week course on Islam including mandated study of the tenets of Islam, the important people of Islam, wearing of a robe, adopting a Moslem name, and staging their own Jihad. It says that the California-required course uses a textbook that says a lot more about Islam than about Christianity and quotes a teacher who says she couldn't teach Christianity like that and can't even say the name of Jesus in the classroom, but the seventh graders are learning how to pray to Allah.
The Truth:
This eRumor has been explosive, both in terms of how quickly it grew in circulation on the Internet and the reaction it prompted.
It is based on an article written for the ASSIST News Service by Austin Miles, who is described as a chaplain, author, historian, speaker, educator, and veteran master of ceremonies at various events around the country (he was a circus ringmaster).
Highlighting concerns over activities in a class about Islam in Excelsior Middle School, the article suggests that the State of California has "embraced Islam," that a course on Islam has been "stealthily" slipped into the seventh grade statewide, that the course is mandated as are activities such as wearing Islamic garb, adopting a Moslem name, and stating their own Jihad. The article also leaves the impression that students and teachers are not allowed to utter the name of Jesus in a classroom and that students cannot wear crosses.
Miles interviewed Christina Lemings, a parent of a seventh grader who is also a seventh grade teacher in the Byron Union School District in Contra Costa County, in Northern California. She said that she did not know what was being taught in the class on Islam until her son brought home a flyer from the Excelsior School about it. She told Miles, "they teach Islam as the true religion, and students are taught about Islam and to pray to Allah." The article says she has quickly learned that in public school, God and Christianity are out (forbidden) but that Islam is in.
At question is what actually happened in the classes about Islam at Excelsior school and to what extent, as the article suggests, are these activities mandated statewide?
If the children were taught to pray to Allah or to participate in any other Islamic devotional activities, that is an outrage deserving of the protest of parents and other concerned Californians.
Lemings says there was prayer to Allah in the class. Other news reports have said that the children were required to pray "in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful" and to stage their own Jihad. Nancie Castro, the principle at the middle school, denies the children were taught to pray or that any of the children was required to participate in the cultural activities of wearing Middle-Eastern clothing or choosing a Moslem name. She told the Contra Costa Times that wearing the clothing was something offered for extra credit. The American Center for Law and Justice in Virginia has written a letter to the Byron School district demanding that parents be given the chance to choose whether their children participate in the required course on Islam. Castro says that when the flyers about the course were sent to parents, three families asked that their children be exempted from that particular portion of the studies and they were given alternate assignments.
Peggy Green, the Superintendent of the Byron Union School district says that the school is merely reflecting the California guidelines for seventh grade and that the students are learning about Islam in the same way that they learn about Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and other major religions. She says that individual teachers will augment the curriculum with various activities and games, including dressing-up and role playing, in order to stimulate class discussion. Green did not specifically say whether there had been prayers to Allah or any other devotional activities encouraged by the teacher at Byron. Green says she and her staff have been fielding calls and other messages to the school about the controversy, many of which have been malignant and threatening.
Lemings, the teacher interviewed by Miles, says she has been troubled by the nature and content of some of the complaints to the school and issued a statement on January 15 saying, "Our schools have wonderful people teaching our children who are walking a fine line trying to comply with their state's regulations, a vague understanding of the separation of church and state and the possibility of a lawsuit on any given day." She said she heard some of the recorded messages directed at her principal and school and was ashamed of them and reminded people that the protest was against decisions at the state level and that her concern was over the way the textbook had handled these issues.
Educators with whom TruthOrFiction.com has spoken, however, say that they feel that the article sensationalized the issue and included some misinformation. It left the impression that this new class on Islam had been "slipped" into California public schools and that the state was mandating activities such as had been described as happening in the Byron School District.
Forrest Turpen is the Executive Director of the Christian Educator's Association International (www.ceai.org). It is a Christian group committed to educators and educational issues in public schools. Turpin says the teaching about Islam has not been "slipped" into the curriculum. Islam has been an important part of history, and therefore an important part of studying history for a long time and is a part of the state guidelines for seventh graders just as teaching about Christianity is a part of the educational guidelines for 6th graders. That is the reason, according to Turpin, why the textbook "Across the Centuries" deals with Islam more than Christianity. It's a seventh grade text and that is the grade when Islam is studied. "In fact," says Turpin, "the state of California has been a leader in requiring a balance of teaching about who we are and what has empowered us as a civilization."
Tom Adams, the administrator for curriculum framework at the state education department, told the Contra Costa Times that state guidelines (for seventh grade) do include a unit on Islamic civilization in the medieval world, however, it should be an academic approach on the historical significance of the religion. It should not be construed as an endorsement of it.
How the guidelines are implemented in the classroom is largely up to the teacher and critics say that in many classrooms, Islam has been emphasized while other religions, such as Christianity and Judaism, have sometimes been hardly touched upon. In an article on WorldNetDaily.com, Diana Lynne said that other parents in California have reported Islam-related activities that have caused them concern. One parent says her daughter was indoctrinated about Islam for four months while in seventh grade in Elk Grove, California. She said one day, she arrived at school to find a banner in front that said "There is one God, Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet." She says she had also seen children chanting from the Koran and praying.
TruthOrFiction.com also reviewed the portions of the textbook "Across the Centuries" that deal with Islam. The text does present Islam in a positive way, which critics say ignores some of the aspects of Islamic history that aren't so positive, especially violent conquest.
Another complaint about the text is that it treats the claims of Islam as "fact." TruthOrFiction.com has reviewed the disputed passages and found that most of them, with a couple of exceptions, are attributed in some way to Moslem belief, rather than stated fact. Several of the disputed passages that are being passed around the Internet are from a section in the text that is under the umbrella title "The Teachings of Islam." Many of the sentences in that section have no attribution because they are already being presented as Islamic belief.
There is protest from some parents about the suggested student activities in the textbook such as imaging being a Muslim soldier on the way to conquer Syria and journaling thoughts about Islam and being in battle; building a miniature mosque as a class activity; writing about a journey to Mecca; Contemplating why Islam was so attractive to Arabs and others in Southwest Asia. One veteran teacher told TruthOrFiction.com, however, that those kinds of suggested activities are commonly used by teachers and that he doesn't view them as being in the book in order to favor Islam. He said that there are similar suggestions in the sixth grade textbook including having the students discuss what role the Israelite's relationship with God played in the formation of their nation, explaining the covenant that the Israelites made with God, imagining being with the Jews when they were conquered by the Babylonians and forced into exile, discussing how Judaism and Christianity are related, how the teachings of Jesus were similar or different from those of other Jews, and doing a presentation of the differences of the religious views of the Sadducees and the Pharisees.
Plato was indeed a totalitarian. (and I suspect Hofstadter was one too.)
Dys, how often in your life have you met highly educated smart people who didn't have any common sense in their daily lives? And how often have you met people with limited institutional learning, but who were astonishingly wise and managed to get along just fine?
Why isn't it possible to combine these two traits into a smart, wise, compassionate survivor in these times?
BBB
To blatham:
In response to your last post to me I have found the story I was looking for.
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Summer reading causes controversy at UNC
RALEIGH, N.C. (AP) ?- When Brendan Byrne heads to college next week, he'll be carrying a copy of Michael Sells' Approaching the Qu'ran: The Early Revelations ?- required summer reading for new students at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill.
The students are supposed to talk about it in discussion groups Monday. But state legislators and a conservative policy group are making last-minute efforts to stop that from happening.
It's all part of a heated dispute that has triggered discussions on religious freedom, patriotism, church and state separation, academic freedom and bigotry in this conservative state.
Detractors say the 220-page book, which discusses 35 verses from Islam's holy text, could convert Americans to the religion of terrorists blamed for the deaths of about 3,000 people on Sept. 11.
The university says the assignment is not a tool for conversion, but rather a way to help students struggling to understand a religion shared by 1.2 billion people.
Byrne, an 18-year-old from Raleigh, doesn't see what all the fuss is about.
"If they were trying to lure us into Islam they would have made it something a little more persuasive," the practicing Roman Catholic said. "I think this is more informational. I don't find it to be threatening at all to any of my beliefs."
The state House approved a budget plan Tuesday that would cut public money for the assignment unless it gives equal time to all religions, a largely symbolic stance since the school's summer reading program costs relatively little and the Legislature is weeks away from passing a final budget.
A more definitive strike could have come Thursday, when a federal judge heard a lawsuit against the reading requirement. But U.S. District Court judge Carlton Tilley Jr. refused Thursday to grant a temporary restraining order requested by two taxpayers, one of them an official of the conservative Virginia-based Family Policy Network, and three unidentified freshmen.
Sells' book contains commentary on the 35 Quran passages and has a companion CD with audio recitations of several verses. School officials have asked over 4,000 freshmen and transfer students to write a one-page paper about the material.
Carl Ernst, a professor of Islam at UNC, recommended the assignment in the hope that it would teach new students about a religion that puzzles many Americans.
"I don't think I would have recommended any other (book) for this kind of educational purpose," Ernst said. "(Sells is) not approaching it as a preacher, ... but he's approaching it as a text we need to understand."
It's not the first time conservatives from North Carolina have voiced objections to Islam. The Rev. Franklin Graham of Boone, N.C., who delivered the invocation at President Bush's inauguration, has publicly called Islam an evil religion.
Joe Glover, president of the Family Policy Network, agrees.
"It's almost farcical that so many people would follow it (Islam) and call it a religion of peace," said Glover, whose conservative Christian group recruited three unidentified students for the lawsuit against UNC. "It means peace through submission to Allah, and for everyone else it means death."
Sells said the book focuses on innocuous parts of the Quran, not those that call for the death of non-Muslims or the rejection of friendships with Christians and Jews.
Sells said he excluded those passages because they were too complex for an introduction to the Quran and they would confuse those unfamiliar with Islam and the history of the Middle East.
Glover argued that a thorough study of Islam would expose students to the full Quran and a range of opinions. He also said such a course should not be required.
The book on the Quran isn't the first summer reading assignment to cause controversy at UNC.
The school once assigned "Confederates in the Attic" by Pulitzer Prize-winner Tony Horwitz, which claimed that William Jasper Martin had deserted the Confederate Army. His wife, Alberta Martin, who was still living during the controversy two years ago, could have lost her husband's pension if he had been declared a deserter.
The university settled the dispute by creating a link on its Web site to a defense of Martin's service record.
The dispute this summer may not be settled so easily. Sells says many Americans cling to the idea that most Muslims are eager to exterminate Americans, particularly Christians.
He compares it to the backlash of the Pearl Harbor attack that resulted in many Americans of Japanese ancestry being sent to internment camps during World War II.
"(Those beliefs) can be really dangerous if we don't find out who the enemy is," he said. "If we think the enemy is really Islam we're going to be fighting on a thousand fronts."
James Moeser, chancellor of UNC's Chapel Hill campus, said the intensity of discussion surrounding the issue demonstrates a need for information.
"We need to explore our own religious biases in this country, our own fear of examination, our own intolerance," Moeser said. "The faculty has succeeded in choosing a book that is provocative in the best sense of the word, provocative of inquiry, even controversy. Universities thrive on controversy."
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Now the school backed down for forcing the students to read the book, but it is still the fact that the school tried. If no one would have spoken up then it would have been a violation of Church and State.
Look at your language, first of all. "Forcing". I was 'forced' to read the Amerian Constitution in one class. In another, I was 'forced' to read "To Kill A Mockingbird". Would you object if you read that a class in a Saudi university had some passages from the Bible on a course reading list? Would you think that those Saudi students would be worse off understanding Christianity better? What is the purpose of education, Baldimo?
One last point...the 'separation of church/state' argument made by one speaker above is a red herring. Your founders wanted what? They wished to ensure that NO SINGLE faith became the official state religion, either in name or functionally. Having students in Idaho read several pages from a Buddhist text doesn't present much of a threat to this goal your founders had. On the other hand, that the Bush administration has funded Christian faith-based groups almost exclusively does present a clear threat to the founder's goal.
Quote:Ten years ago.
Probably the majority of university professors would define themselves as liberal. Also nurses. Also social workers. Also anglican priests. Also canadian citizens as it happens. If your interests and goals lead you in the direction of helping others, as opposed to making a pile of money, your probably going to define yourself as a liberal.
What do you see in your public speaking class? And are you now a liberal as a consequence of this siting?
To try and say that only people that want to help people as liberals is wrong. A majority of churches and those churches on the right also want to help people, this doesn't make them liberals it makes them caring people. Liberals haven't cornered the market on helping people.
I didn't say they had. I'm not sure how old you are, but take to heart what I'm about to tell you. The term 'liberal' has been redefined over the last twenty years in US political rhetoric. That's been a purposeful campaign. My grandparents, church activists all their lives, along with many in my extended family (some missionaries included) had always considered themselves as 'liberal'. They identified with causes that sought to alleviate suffering. They identified with social programs that sought to alleviate suffering. They did NOT identify with personal accumulation of wealth nor did they identify with the sort of selfishness which leads to sweatshops and products that though profitable, kill people, like tobacco and guns and GM autos that executives KNOW will result in X number of families burning to death.
Quote:he's not a socialist- why would it bother you? Some ideas are illegal in that institution which is our most fundamental bulwark against repression of ideas and towards the forwarding of the open investigation of ideas?
He describes himself as a libertarian socialist with anarchism as a founding of his belief system. I would say this isn't in holding with America's democratic history. Being a libertarian socialist/anarchist isn't being someone who supports what America was founded on. Let him speak but it shouldn't be taught in schools where the opposite views are not taught.
You need to find this statement from the man himself. Your readers here have no way of ascertaining the truth of what you claim. As to 'not holding with America's democratic history'...you are quite wrong. In a democracy, a real one, ideas aren't illegal. And I think you don't understand the diversity of views held by the men who wrote your constitution and bill of rights. You've got some atheists in the pile. Diversity in ideas is a good thing. Enforcing unanimity of view is a bad thing. If, that is, one truly believes in democracy.
Quote:We have no strong voice in the evangelical churches, and we demand 50%
You can have a voice by going there, but the difference is that churches are a private domain where govt can't go. The same can't be said for the colleges and universities that are govt supported and funded. People pay to go to secondary school; people don't pay to go to a church.
You are right. It was a poor analogy. But of course, that you are promoting Affirmative Action for conservative professors still stands. And why stop at 'conservatism'. Why not add in an equal number of socialist, facists, and anarchists?
Quote:That's the reddest herring I've ever seen. You find me the instance where this occured. Not a link to a right wing source of ridiculous surmise, but to the university program where this occured. What the hell do you think is education? It's about learning NEW things, about expanding your noggin, about fresh ideas. You, probably more than anyone else on this thread ought to read Muslim scripture.
Posted above. Did you also know that a school district in CA was going to force kids to take a class on Islam? They were going to learn about Islam, take a Muslim name, pray to Allah and name a Jihad. Doesn't this sound like a violation of Church and State? Is it ok for Islam but not for Christianity or Judaism?
Well, I covered these issues above. But again, you note a case without providing specifics. I am assuming you are on the mailing list of a pro-Christian group and are receiving notices such as this one. Do you really think 'conversion' is the motivation in any such case?
Quote:the president wrote that Mr. Robinson had found "personal animus" on the part of several law professors toward Mr. Natelson, but not political discrimination."
As stated the same could have been said of about black teachers in the 50's. You can't find racism now; does that mean it doesn't exist any longer? There are different types of prejudice in the world, not just against people of different colors.
You totally ignore the words. Totally. What does "not political discrimination" mean? It means "not discrimination". And your claim that "you can't find discrimination now" is either terribly careless wording or you've never stepped out your front door. Of course prejudice still exists. Much of what you've suggested above shows pretty apparent prejudice against Muslims.
Well perhaps I am wrong about Hofstadter. (After all I have not yet read his goddamn book). If he is more like Socrates than Plato so much the better. Truly, he is.
Dys and I found ourselves agreeing that elites of all kinds need challenge and competition to keep from becoming harmful; that elites of any sort that influence the political process bring a certain inherent danger; and that a Platonic view of society governed by elites is particularly dangerous. All three of us agree here, and myself resoundingly so. A very practical case in point...the cost of running a modern campaign in US politics. A fellow with the resources of Lincoln would have no chance. Another is the advantage which accrues to that elite in possession of great wealth as regards influencing an election and influencing policy. Tough problems both, but far more immediate to US democracy than professors.
What I found so off-putting about the review I quoted were the references to the unfortunate intellectual elite being ill-served by local lawyers, businessmen and the "common people", the inhabitants of "village life". The life of the mind is a good thing, and we all should cultivate it to the degree that our natures and circumstances permit. However those who do pursue it have no more claim on virtue, rectitude, or power than those who do not. Indeed history reveals numerous examples of the great harm that serious thinkers have done to humanity. This is not a denigration of thought - only bad ideas. I believe that one of the great strengths of America is our tradition of limited government and pragmatism in politics. If that gives self-appointed intellectuals a lesser degree of prominence than they would otherwise enjoy, the tradeoff is still quite favorable. The American Revolution produced far better results than the French one for precisely this reason.
Nothing much here I disagree with other than your conception of Hofstadter's notions as regards village folks or practical men. This problem is a trade-off problem, as you mention. There are historical forces at work which are anti-intellectual, sometimes fairly but other times, towards ends that are either reactive or leaning to the totalitarian. It's complex, no question. Setting out to illuminate such a huge subject was a brave act, and I'll warn you that though Hofstadter is one of the best writers I've bumped into, the book won't be found on many beach towels near the cabanna. But it WILL illuminate very very much of the present. I promise this. You may well have to find it via internet.
If it turns out that Hofstadter's ideas are compatible with this view then I will gladly withdraw my criticism - hell, I might even read his goddamn book !
And one of the chief reasons the steel mill is "long gone" is the recalcitrance of the Steelworker's Union. Economic life is inherently competitive, and unions are often a formidable anti-competitive force. This was certainly the case in the Steel industry. There was plenty of blame to spread around : owners who were reluctant to invest in new equipment and labor unions that resisted new processes involving less labor and clung to out of date work rules, etc. Now none of them have jobs.
The typical shop steward is paid by the employer, but does no work. Perhaps this was necessary back in the days of industrial sweat shops, but it is only rarely needed now. Unions are rapidly disappearing from the private sector: only government service unions are growing.
You arnt a union man that is certian. I went with out a raise at our plant (a small midwest plant) for something like 8 years while our CEO took a million dollers a year from a plant that hadent made a profit for 12 years. He dident put any money into repairing and retooling for a period of 20 years. He shut down parts of the plant over those twenty years and sold off the equipmant. When it finally went broke the only ones to git away with any money were the top 6 managers. The rest of us got screwed out of the contracturial obligations we thought we had. WE also took raises during those 20 years that were much less than the cost of living. We were among the first Enrons. So dont give me this garbage about the union breaking the company, I was there and lived the theft of the company. You on the other hand have probebly only read about what you think you know.
