Columnist Robert Novak has ties to Anti-Kerry book

Quote:

Detractors say the 220-page book, which discusses 35 verses from Islam's holy text, could convert Americans to the religion of terrorists blamed for the deaths of about 3,000 people on Sept. 11.

Yeah, right. Do you seriously believe that a ton of people would be converted? This is one of the weakest justifications I have read for racism.

Quote:

Posted above. Did you also know that a school district in CA was going to force kids to take a class on Islam? They were going to learn about Islam, take a Muslim name, pray to Allah and name a Jihad. Doesn't this sound like a violation of Church and State? Is it ok for Islam but not for Christianity or Judaism?

I doubt it. Link to evidence?

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

dyslexia wrote:

george, I do greatly appreciate your response and no, the quote I used was not gathered up to toss back at you as I stated I have heard/ read the same comment from various and sundry sources often when one has nothing else to say other than "I am right, you are wrong and if you would only open your eyes to MY truth you would see how wrong YOURS is" and that, my friend, is elitism at its worst. (and very Platonic)

I understand and agree. Sadly its true - I am vulnerable to elitist moments too.
BUT BLATHAM IS WORSE !!!

0 Replies

Cycloptichorn wrote:

Quote:
Detractors say the 220-page book, which discusses 35 verses from Islam's holy text, could convert Americans to the religion of terrorists blamed for the deaths of about 3,000 people on Sept. 11.

Yeah, right. Do you seriously believe that a ton of people would be converted? This is one of the weakest justifications I have read for racism.

Quote:
Posted above. Did you also know that a school district in CA was going to force kids to take a class on Islam? They were going to learn about Islam, take a Muslim name, pray to Allah and name a Jihad. Doesn't this sound like a violation of Church and State? Is it ok for Islam but not for Christianity or Judaism?

I doubt it. Link to evidence?

Cycloptichorn

I didn't say anything about racism, I said seperation of church and state, isn't that why you guys don't like christianity in schools. Why you think racism just goes to show people will look any where they can for anything. You should try and be more logical.

Here is an article about the school in CA.
----
Public Schools Embrace Islam - A Shocker!
ASSIST News Service
BRENTWOOD, CA (ANS) -- As children return to school this week, following the Christmas break, 7th graders in a growing number of public schools, who are not permitted to wear a cross or speak the name of Jesus, will be required to attend an intensive three week course on Islam; a course in which students are mandated to learn the tenets of Islam, study the important figures of the faith, wear a robe, adopt a Muslim name and stage their own Jihad.

In Byron, California, parents were outraged when students came home with their handouts and were told what was being taught. Their complaints to the school principal not only were ignored, but officials of this public school, funded by tax dollars, essentially fluffed them off.

The public schools in California so stealthily slipped this course into the 7th grade curriculum that even another 7th grade teacher, Elizabeth Christina Lemings, was totally in the dark that this was being taught until her son, Joseph, who is a 7th grader in the same school where she teaches, brought home the handouts.

"We could never teach Christianity like this," Lemings said to ANS during an on-site interview. "We can't even mention the name of Jesus in the public schools, but over there," she pointed to the building next to hers, "they teach Islam as the true religion, and students are taught about Islam and how to pray to Allah."

Lemings, in her second year of teaching in the Byron (Northern California) Union School District, has been a Christian since 1987. The government school system requires that she teach evolution in her science class with no reference to creationism or any contrasting viewpoint to Darwin's theory. She quickly learned that God and Christianity are out (forbidden) but that Islam is in.

The textbook used for the Islamic course, Across The Centuries, is published by Houghton-Mifflin (Boston, Ma.). It is described as a Social Studies/History book and has been adopted by the California School System.

In it, Islam is presented broadly in a totally positive manner, whereas the restricted references to Christianity, is centered on The Reformation, Martin Luther and The Catholic Church. Everything Christian is shown in a negative light, with events such as the Inquisition, the Salem witch-hunts, etc. highlighted in bold, black type.

This is proper for a complete study of history. However, there is not one negative to be found about Islam in this one-sided account, such as the wars, massacres, cruelties against Christians and other non-Muslims that Islam has consistently perpetrated over the centuries.

Nor is any mention made of the way Muslims treat their own people, cutting off hands, feet and heads for even the slightest violations of the Islamic tenets of faith, or the shocking way they treat their women.

The 'miraculous' events leading up to the Koran, the 'holy' book of Islam, and other 'revelations' are presented as factual. Any reference of the miraculous regarding Christianity is always set next to a disclaimer stating that; "It was (is) believed by Christians (or an individual such as Martin Luther) that...", implying an absence of credibility about the stated event.

For example, the representation that Gabriel the archangel came to Muhammad (Note: not believed to have come to Muhammad) and dictated to him the Koran, a whole new revelation and idea that would surpass all other religions.

What needs to be explained by the Houghton-Mifflin historians, is why Gabriel (which translates, "Man of God"), the archangel of both Christians and Jews, who was a part of all of God's plan, who interpreted for Daniel the vision of the ram and the he-goat, and comforted him after his prayer with the prophecy of the 'seventy weeks' and who heralded the good tidings by declaring the coming of the predicted Messiah, would at that point in time and history, call on Muhammad, one who did not believe in Jehovah God or Jesus as the Son of God, and 'reveal' to him the words of the pagan god Allah to lead his people with. How's that again?

It would be most interesting to have the Houghton-Mifflin experts explain what possessed Gabriel to turn on the God of Abraham and Jesus Christ to lend assistance to what would become a murderous cult with no regard for life, the very antithesis of Christianity. There is a deplorable lack of information here.

And too, the Book of Revelation clearly states that no words should be added or taken away from that book. So this in itself poses a major contradiction and problem.

The faulty textbook, Across the Centuries, has more than its share of deceit. It is stated as fact that Islam, Judaism and Christianity share in common the belief in one god. This is a half- truth, which is the worst kind of lie. Christianity and Judaism worship one God, the God of Abraham. Islam worships one god named Allah. This book is misleading on the part of Houghton-Mifflin. The publisher apparently is attempting to legitimize Islam.

If this were an authentic history, the textbook would explain that the god of Muhammad was man's creation. Arabia was a pagan nation that worshiped over 300 gods. One of those was the moon god named, al-ilah. Legend has it that the moon god mated with the sun god and had two daughters, both of whom were worshiped as goddesses. When Muhammad claimed to have had his 'vision' and 'revelation from Gabriel' he chose al-ilah as the god to build his army around.

Muhammad shortened the name, al-ilah, to, Allah, and declared that he alone should be worshiped. He forbade the worship of the daughters. To this day, a crescent moon can be found at the front of every mosque, acknowledging that Allah was, and is the moon god. All of this is missing from the Houghton-Mifflin accounts.

It is also to be noted, even though not publicized, that Allah is also known as, The God of War. So why isn't this important study of Islam included in the history books?

The handouts used in this course, obtained by ANS, are considerable. They include a history of Islam and the life of Muhammad its founder.

Muhammad is portrayed as an extremely moral man who wanted a society of purity. A vast body of historical accounts will refute this image. Historians will show that he had multiple wives, a sexual problem, and among his wives, he took a 10-year-old girl for his pleasure (some accounts list her age as 6).

And Islam promises its followers that those who become suicide bombers, killing themselves and others, will go directly to Allah's paradise where they will be given 72 virgins for unbridled sexual pleasure for all of eternity.

There are many verses in the Koran that must be memorized in this Public School course and students are taught to pray, "in the name of Allah, the Compassionate, the Merciful" and to chant, "Praise to Allah, Lord of Creation."

There are 25 Islamic terms that must be memorized, six Islamic (Arabic) phrases, 20 Islamic Proverbs to learn along with the Five Pillars of Faith and 10 key Islamic prophets and disciples to be studied.

"Can you imagine the barrage of lawsuits and problems we would have from the ACLU if Christianity were taught in the public schools, and if we tried to teach about the contributions of Matthew, Mark, Luke, John and the Apostle Paul?" teacher Elizabeth Lemings lamented. "But when it comes to furthering the Islamic religion in the public schools, there is not one word from the ACLU, People For The American Way or anybody else. This is hypocrisy!"

Even more disturbing; students are to pretend that they are Muslims, wear Muslim clothing to school, stage their own Jihad via a dice game, and pick out a Muslim name (to replace their own) from a list of thirty.

ANS asked some of the students what they thought about this course. All of them felt that "it was fun," while others described Islam as "a pretty culture." This included a pastor's son! Joseph Lemings, 12, said, "the Jihad was like playing a video game," even though the true violent nature of Jihad was well concealed.

Lemings is disturbed by the "fun" description. She sees it as a tool, not only to engender sympathy and support for the Muslim cause, but for recruitment. "This is not just a class of history of examining culture," she said. "This course is entirely too specific. It is more about indoctrination."

Lemings, upon learning of the course on Islam, approached the principal of Intermediate-Excelsior School of Byron, Nancy Castro, requesting the right to teach Christianity in the manner that Islam is taught and for the same length of time.

Castro has not responded to her request. Lemings later received, roundabout, information that the only way she could do this would be to teach the Christianity class (as a Christian Club) after school hours where students would come of their own accord. Otherwise, she would violate the law of (selective) Separation of Church and State. Excuse me?

In an interview with Nancy Castro, the principal of the schools in Byron, she stated to ANS that the Islam course (hidden within "History of Cultures") reflects California (educational) Standards that meet State requirements.

When asked about the intensity of the Islamic course, Castro stated that the course "is not religion, but Ancient Culture and History. And," she pointed out, "the text is a State Adopted textbook. We do not endorse any religion, we just make students aware."

She stated that the textbook is now in use throughout California. When asked if she would allow Christianity to be taught the same way that Islam is taught, Castro stammered before saying that Christianity is already taught in the History and Culture class, "which," she said, "actually starts in the 6th grade."

She said that this class started a year ago. The Christianity that is taught is brief, taught as a myth, and strictly negative. This is how it is portrayed in the textbook.

Lemings had stated to ANS that there were many, many parents who protested this course on Islam, especially after September 11th ( which, coincidently, is when the course began).. Nancy Castro contradicted this account.

Asked if there was any response from parents about this course, Castro answered, "Oh a couple of parents called to express concerns, three to be exact."

Peggy Green, Superintendent of the Byron Union School District did not return calls by press time.

The Muslim's intentions are clear and the public has been continually notified of that fact. In nearby Fremont, where the majority of the over 150,000 Muslims living in the Bay Area reside, Omar M. Ahmad, chairman of the board of the Council on American-Islamic relations said this at the Flamingo Palace banquet hall: "I urge Muslims not to shirk their duty of sharing the Islamic faith with those who are on the 'wrong-side'."

He said that Muslims should not assimilate into American society. "If you choose to live here, you have a responsibility to deliver the message of Islam.Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant. The Koran should be the highest authority in America, and Islam the only accepted religion on earth," he said.

These quotes were published in the" San Ramon Valley Herald" on July 4, 1998 (ironically on our Independence Day), 3 years, 2 months and 7 days before September 11, 2001. And like everything else, Americans and church leaders didn't pay any attention to it.

In the same article, Ahmad stated: "Everything we need to know is in the Koran." And bear in mind that the Koran clearly states that Muslims are obligated to kill Christians, Jews and all other infidels.

So why would the American Public School System and the politicians want to further the Islamic faith, push to have it become the One World Religion and nix Christianity?

Simple. Christians cannot be enslaved. Islam, an oppressive religion of control, cruelty and fear does enslave, which can keep people subdued. This is precisely what the future leaders of the One World Order want to achieve. And the misinformed, make nice, politically correct crowd seem eager to help them accomplish it.

But the greatest driving factor in all of this is money. There are the profiteers and politicians who stand to grow in unspeakable wealth and power by cooperating with the Arabs and finding favor by helping them and their pagan religion take control. They have no compunction in selling us out, and our freedom, to accomplish their goals. These greedy, self-serving investors stand salivating on both sides of the oil pump.
------

Let me know what you think!

0 Replies

I say racism because you refer to islaam as the 'religion of terrorists.' A more logical phrase would have been 'a religion that many terrorists follow.' Important distinction.

Also, your article had a hard time standing up at www.truthorfiction.com:

Quote:

Summary of eRumor:
The message says "Public Schools Embrace Islam - A Shocker." It focuses on seventh graders in Byron, California, and says that although students in a growing number of public schools cannot wear crosses or utter the name of Jesus, they are being required to attend an intensive three-week course on Islam including mandated study of the tenets of Islam, the important people of Islam, wearing of a robe, adopting a Moslem name, and staging their own Jihad. It says that the California-required course uses a textbook that says a lot more about Islam than about Christianity and quotes a teacher who says she couldn't teach Christianity like that and can't even say the name of Jesus in the classroom, but the seventh graders are learning how to pray to Allah.

The Truth:
This eRumor has been explosive, both in terms of how quickly it grew in circulation on the Internet and the reaction it prompted.

It is based on an article written for the ASSIST News Service by Austin Miles, who is described as a chaplain, author, historian, speaker, educator, and veteran master of ceremonies at various events around the country (he was a circus ringmaster).

Highlighting concerns over activities in a class about Islam in Excelsior Middle School, the article suggests that the State of California has "embraced Islam," that a course on Islam has been "stealthily" slipped into the seventh grade statewide, that the course is mandated as are activities such as wearing Islamic garb, adopting a Moslem name, and stating their own Jihad. The article also leaves the impression that students and teachers are not allowed to utter the name of Jesus in a classroom and that students cannot wear crosses.
Miles interviewed Christina Lemings, a parent of a seventh grader who is also a seventh grade teacher in the Byron Union School District in Contra Costa County, in Northern California. She said that she did not know what was being taught in the class on Islam until her son brought home a flyer from the Excelsior School about it. She told Miles, "they teach Islam as the true religion, and students are taught about Islam and to pray to Allah." The article says she has quickly learned that in public school, God and Christianity are out (forbidden) but that Islam is in.

At question is what actually happened in the classes about Islam at Excelsior school and to what extent, as the article suggests, are these activities mandated statewide?

If the children were taught to pray to Allah or to participate in any other Islamic devotional activities, that is an outrage deserving of the protest of parents and other concerned Californians.

Lemings says there was prayer to Allah in the class. Other news reports have said that the children were required to pray "in the name of Allah the Compassionate the Merciful" and to stage their own Jihad. Nancie Castro, the principle at the middle school, denies the children were taught to pray or that any of the children was required to participate in the cultural activities of wearing Middle-Eastern clothing or choosing a Moslem name. She told the Contra Costa Times that wearing the clothing was something offered for extra credit. The American Center for Law and Justice in Virginia has written a letter to the Byron School district demanding that parents be given the chance to choose whether their children participate in the required course on Islam. Castro says that when the flyers about the course were sent to parents, three families asked that their children be exempted from that particular portion of the studies and they were given alternate assignments.

Peggy Green, the Superintendent of the Byron Union School district says that the school is merely reflecting the California guidelines for seventh grade and that the students are learning about Islam in the same way that they learn about Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, and other major religions. She says that individual teachers will augment the curriculum with various activities and games, including dressing-up and role playing, in order to stimulate class discussion. Green did not specifically say whether there had been prayers to Allah or any other devotional activities encouraged by the teacher at Byron. Green says she and her staff have been fielding calls and other messages to the school about the controversy, many of which have been malignant and threatening.

Lemings, the teacher interviewed by Miles, says she has been troubled by the nature and content of some of the complaints to the school and issued a statement on January 15 saying, "Our schools have wonderful people teaching our children who are walking a fine line trying to comply with their state's regulations, a vague understanding of the separation of church and state and the possibility of a lawsuit on any given day." She said she heard some of the recorded messages directed at her principal and school and was ashamed of them and reminded people that the protest was against decisions at the state level and that her concern was over the way the textbook had handled these issues.

Educators with whom TruthOrFiction.com has spoken, however, say that they feel that the article sensationalized the issue and included some misinformation. It left the impression that this new class on Islam had been "slipped" into California public schools and that the state was mandating activities such as had been described as happening in the Byron School District.

Forrest Turpen is the Executive Director of the Christian Educator's Association International (www.ceai.org). It is a Christian group committed to educators and educational issues in public schools. Turpin says the teaching about Islam has not been "slipped" into the curriculum. Islam has been an important part of history, and therefore an important part of studying history for a long time and is a part of the state guidelines for seventh graders just as teaching about Christianity is a part of the educational guidelines for 6th graders. That is the reason, according to Turpin, why the textbook "Across the Centuries" deals with Islam more than Christianity. It's a seventh grade text and that is the grade when Islam is studied. "In fact," says Turpin, "the state of California has been a leader in requiring a balance of teaching about who we are and what has empowered us as a civilization."

Tom Adams, the administrator for curriculum framework at the state education department, told the Contra Costa Times that state guidelines (for seventh grade) do include a unit on Islamic civilization in the medieval world, however, it should be an academic approach on the historical significance of the religion. It should not be construed as an endorsement of it.

How the guidelines are implemented in the classroom is largely up to the teacher and critics say that in many classrooms, Islam has been emphasized while other religions, such as Christianity and Judaism, have sometimes been hardly touched upon. In an article on WorldNetDaily.com, Diana Lynne said that other parents in California have reported Islam-related activities that have caused them concern. One parent says her daughter was indoctrinated about Islam for four months while in seventh grade in Elk Grove, California. She said one day, she arrived at school to find a banner in front that said "There is one God, Allah, and Mohammad is his prophet." She says she had also seen children chanting from the Koran and praying.

TruthOrFiction.com also reviewed the portions of the textbook "Across the Centuries" that deal with Islam. The text does present Islam in a positive way, which critics say ignores some of the aspects of Islamic history that aren't so positive, especially violent conquest.

Another complaint about the text is that it treats the claims of Islam as "fact." TruthOrFiction.com has reviewed the disputed passages and found that most of them, with a couple of exceptions, are attributed in some way to Moslem belief, rather than stated fact. Several of the disputed passages that are being passed around the Internet are from a section in the text that is under the umbrella title "The Teachings of Islam." Many of the sentences in that section have no attribution because they are already being presented as Islamic belief.

There is protest from some parents about the suggested student activities in the textbook such as imaging being a Muslim soldier on the way to conquer Syria and journaling thoughts about Islam and being in battle; building a miniature mosque as a class activity; writing about a journey to Mecca; Contemplating why Islam was so attractive to Arabs and others in Southwest Asia. One veteran teacher told TruthOrFiction.com, however, that those kinds of suggested activities are commonly used by teachers and that he doesn't view them as being in the book in order to favor Islam. He said that there are similar suggestions in the sixth grade textbook including having the students discuss what role the Israelite's relationship with God played in the formation of their nation, explaining the covenant that the Israelites made with God, imagining being with the Jews when they were conquered by the Babylonians and forced into exile, discussing how Judaism and Christianity are related, how the teachings of Jesus were similar or different from those of other Jews, and doing a presentation of the differences of the religious views of the Sadducees and the Pharisees.

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/byronislam.htm

Ya should research your sources a little better before, yaknow, presenting them as facts to support your case.

Cycloptichorn

0 Replies

Quote:

Plato was indeed a totalitarian. (and I suspect Hofstadter was one too.)

A bit of time to post this morn...

George...you give yourself away badly on this one. Your 'suspicion' is about 180 degrees wrong. I mean, it is actually THAT wrong. And that's how you give yourself away. You are more content holding onto what is a pre-judgement (a prejudice) that fits your world view than you are accepting a datum which contradicts it.

The far more proper analogy would be Hofstadter and Socrates. "Truths" and "authorities" up for active questioning, the best possible education for all and not just for a priviledged (by circumstance or by nature) elite, and democracy in the way most of us think your framer's hoped for it to look.

0 Replies

Re: Dys

BumbleBeeBoogie wrote:

Dys, how often in your life have you met highly educated smart people who didn't have any common sense in their daily lives? And how often have you met people with limited institutional learning, but who were astonishingly wise and managed to get along just fine?

Why isn't it possible to combine these two traits into a smart, wise, compassionate survivor in these times?

BBB

BBB

There was plumber running a long snake down a clogged-up drain in my home town Safeway where I worked as a young fellow. I'd not seen one used before, and expressed some surprise that it didn't get hung up on the sides of the drain. He shrugged and replied, "Ah, the thing works just like people, it'll take the easiest path." Not an unsmart abstraction, that.

A degree, by itself, means nothing much at all. We can make generalized suppositions, as employers commonly do when they demand a high school diploma or a specific level of academic achievement, that there's a higher probability of the prospective employee having X characteristics. Or we can do the same sort of generalization, and valid as far as generalizatons go, that an educated population is a better thing than a non-educated population. But going further than that on specific individuals isn't warranted.

The way I think about this is not that I am a 'better' person than another who has not been as educationally fortunate as myself, but rather that I am a 'better' person as compared to myself if I hadn't been that fortunate.

Folks can be offended by an elitism that sometimes occurs from the 'well educated', but that's a common failing in humans and we see it in the office or the baseball team or even with siblings..."I'm better than you". Education isn't the real problem.

Of course, education has often been a function of social class...the wealthy and more powerful arrive at the 'best' schools and others may well never arrive at all. Education has mainly been non-meritorious for most of our history. That's a relevant factor too.

But also, and this is one of Hofstadter's theses, education can have consequences which unsettle a community. Cherished ideas can be, and often are, challenged. There's no clearer example than Darwinian natural selection. Local power alignments too can be put in some jeopardy where ideas, previously accepted without question, are now questioned. It is precisely this reason that totalitarian states (or those which this tendency) take out university professors and students immediately upon ascendance to power. And it is this precisely which led to Socrates' cup of hemlock.

0 Replies

Baldimo wrote:

Look at your language, first of all. "Forcing". I was 'forced' to read the Amerian Constitution in one class. In another, I was 'forced' to read "To Kill A Mockingbird". Would you object if you read that a class in a Saudi university had some passages from the Bible on a course reading list? Would you think that those Saudi students would be worse off understanding Christianity better? What is the purpose of education, Baldimo?
One last point...the 'separation of church/state' argument made by one speaker above is a red herring. Your founders wanted what? They wished to ensure that NO SINGLE faith became the official state religion, either in name or functionally. Having students in Idaho read several pages from a Buddhist text doesn't present much of a threat to this goal your founders had. On the other hand, that the Bush administration has funded Christian faith-based groups almost exclusively does present a clear threat to the founder's goal.

Quote:
Ten years ago.
Probably the majority of university professors would define themselves as liberal. Also nurses. Also social workers. Also anglican priests. Also canadian citizens as it happens. If your interests and goals lead you in the direction of helping others, as opposed to making a pile of money, your probably going to define yourself as a liberal.
What do you see in your public speaking class? And are you now a liberal as a consequence of this siting?

To try and say that only people that want to help people as liberals is wrong. A majority of churches and those churches on the right also want to help people, this doesn't make them liberals it makes them caring people. Liberals haven't cornered the market on helping people.
I didn't say they had. I'm not sure how old you are, but take to heart what I'm about to tell you. The term 'liberal' has been redefined over the last twenty years in US political rhetoric. That's been a purposeful campaign. My grandparents, church activists all their lives, along with many in my extended family (some missionaries included) had always considered themselves as 'liberal'. They identified with causes that sought to alleviate suffering. They identified with social programs that sought to alleviate suffering. They did NOT identify with personal accumulation of wealth nor did they identify with the sort of selfishness which leads to sweatshops and products that though profitable, kill people, like tobacco and guns and GM autos that executives KNOW will result in X number of families burning to death.

Quote:
he's not a socialist- why would it bother you? Some ideas are illegal in that institution which is our most fundamental bulwark against repression of ideas and towards the forwarding of the open investigation of ideas?

He describes himself as a libertarian socialist with anarchism as a founding of his belief system. I would say this isn't in holding with America's democratic history. Being a libertarian socialist/anarchist isn't being someone who supports what America was founded on. Let him speak but it shouldn't be taught in schools where the opposite views are not taught.
You need to find this statement from the man himself. Your readers here have no way of ascertaining the truth of what you claim. As to 'not holding with America's democratic history'...you are quite wrong. In a democracy, a real one, ideas aren't illegal. And I think you don't understand the diversity of views held by the men who wrote your constitution and bill of rights. You've got some atheists in the pile. Diversity in ideas is a good thing. Enforcing unanimity of view is a bad thing. If, that is, one truly believes in democracy.

Quote:
We have no strong voice in the evangelical churches, and we demand 50%

You can have a voice by going there, but the difference is that churches are a private domain where govt can't go. The same can't be said for the colleges and universities that are govt supported and funded. People pay to go to secondary school; people don't pay to go to a church.
You are right. It was a poor analogy. But of course, that you are promoting Affirmative Action for conservative professors still stands. And why stop at 'conservatism'. Why not add in an equal number of socialist, facists, and anarchists?

Quote:
That's the reddest herring I've ever seen. You find me the instance where this occured. Not a link to a right wing source of ridiculous surmise, but to the university program where this occured. What the hell do you think is education? It's about learning NEW things, about expanding your noggin, about fresh ideas. You, probably more than anyone else on this thread ought to read Muslim scripture.

Posted above. Did you also know that a school district in CA was going to force kids to take a class on Islam? They were going to learn about Islam, take a Muslim name, pray to Allah and name a Jihad. Doesn't this sound like a violation of Church and State? Is it ok for Islam but not for Christianity or Judaism?
Well, I covered these issues above. But again, you note a case without providing specifics. I am assuming you are on the mailing list of a pro-Christian group and are receiving notices such as this one. Do you really think 'conversion' is the motivation in any such case?

Quote:
the president wrote that Mr. Robinson had found "personal animus" on the part of several law professors toward Mr. Natelson, but not political discrimination."

As stated the same could have been said of about black teachers in the 50's. You can't find racism now; does that mean it doesn't exist any longer? There are different types of prejudice in the world, not just against people of different colors.
You totally ignore the words. Totally. What does "not political discrimination" mean? It means "not discrimination". And your claim that "you can't find discrimination now" is either terribly careless wording or you've never stepped out your front door. Of course prejudice still exists. Much of what you've suggested above shows pretty apparent prejudice against Muslims.

0 Replies

Well perhaps I am wrong about Hofstadter. (After all I have not yet read his goddamn book). If he is more like Socrates than Plato so much the better.

Dys and I found ourselves agreeing that elites of all kinds need challenge and competition to keep from becoming harmful; that elites of any sort that influence the political process bring a certain inherent danger; and that a Platonic view of society governed by elites is particularly dangerous.

What I found so off-putting about the review I quoted were the references to the unfortunate intellectual elite being ill-served by local lawyers, businessmen and the "common people", the inhabitants of "village life". The life of the mind is a good thing, and we all should cultivate it to the degree that our natures and circumstances permit. However those who do pursue it have no more claim on virtue, rectitude, or power than those who do not. Indeed history reveals numerous examples of the great harm that serious thinkers have done to humanity. This is not a denigration of thought - only bad ideas. I believe that one of the great strengths of America is our tradition of limited government and pragmatism in politics. If that gives self-appointed intellectuals a lesser degree of prominence than they would otherwise enjoy, the tradeoff is still quite favorable. The American Revolution produced far better results than the French one for precisely this reason.

If it turns out that Hofstadter's ideas are compatible with this view then I will gladly withdraw my criticism - hell, I might even read his goddamn book !

0 Replies

georgeob1 wrote:

Well perhaps I am wrong about Hofstadter. (After all I have not yet read his goddamn book). If he is more like Socrates than Plato so much the better. Truly, he is.

Dys and I found ourselves agreeing that elites of all kinds need challenge and competition to keep from becoming harmful; that elites of any sort that influence the political process bring a certain inherent danger; and that a Platonic view of society governed by elites is particularly dangerous. All three of us agree here, and myself resoundingly so. A very practical case in point...the cost of running a modern campaign in US politics. A fellow with the resources of Lincoln would have no chance. Another is the advantage which accrues to that elite in possession of great wealth as regards influencing an election and influencing policy. Tough problems both, but far more immediate to US democracy than professors.

What I found so off-putting about the review I quoted were the references to the unfortunate intellectual elite being ill-served by local lawyers, businessmen and the "common people", the inhabitants of "village life". The life of the mind is a good thing, and we all should cultivate it to the degree that our natures and circumstances permit. However those who do pursue it have no more claim on virtue, rectitude, or power than those who do not. Indeed history reveals numerous examples of the great harm that serious thinkers have done to humanity. This is not a denigration of thought - only bad ideas. I believe that one of the great strengths of America is our tradition of limited government and pragmatism in politics. If that gives self-appointed intellectuals a lesser degree of prominence than they would otherwise enjoy, the tradeoff is still quite favorable. The American Revolution produced far better results than the French one for precisely this reason.
Nothing much here I disagree with other than your conception of Hofstadter's notions as regards village folks or practical men. This problem is a trade-off problem, as you mention. There are historical forces at work which are anti-intellectual, sometimes fairly but other times, towards ends that are either reactive or leaning to the totalitarian. It's complex, no question. Setting out to illuminate such a huge subject was a brave act, and I'll warn you that though Hofstadter is one of the best writers I've bumped into, the book won't be found on many beach towels near the cabanna. But it WILL illuminate very very much of the present. I promise this. You may well have to find it via internet.

If it turns out that Hofstadter's ideas are compatible with this view then I will gladly withdraw my criticism - hell, I might even read his goddamn book !

0 Replies

cyclo

Thanks kindly for finding that background piece.

Baldimo

Rather than quote pieces as you've been doing, you should also provide links. That allows your readers to dig in and research.

0 Replies

Blatham
Blatham wrote: "But also, and this is one of Hofstadter's theses, education can have consequences which unsettle a community. Cherished ideas can be, and often are, challenged. There's no clearer example than Darwinian natural selection. Local power alignments too can be put in some jeopardy where ideas, previously accepted without question, are now questioned. It is precisely this reason that totalitarian states (or those which this tendency) take out university professors and students immediately upon ascendance to power. And it is this precisely which led to Socrates' cup of hemlock."

In the Labor Movement, it is a given that you have a passport and never let it expire, which I adhered to during the many years I was a union representative. Dictators do away with union representatives and organizers before they turn their attention to the professors and students. Why? Because they know how to connect and communicate with the people and how to organize them into action, a very dangerous skill when a dictator doesn't like you.

In the US and other "more civilized countries" the union staff are not so often killed as they are fired from their jobs if they are union stewards on the payroll of their employer, or elected union officers who are not directly employed by the union.

When I'm deciding whom to support in presidential elections, the following criteria influences my decision: Supreme Court and Federal Judge appointments, National Labor Relations Board appointments, Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense appointments, a uniter---not a divider.

BBB

0 Replies

Im sure that the conseratives on this site will disagree with BBB on the fireing of union representatives by companies but ive had personal experance with this. The closest that the company I worked for ever came to a strike was because they fired a union representative for doing his job. They reinstated him. It was a steel mill that is long gone.

0 Replies

And one of the chief reasons the steel mill is "long gone" is the recalcitrance of the Steelworker's Union. Economic life is inherently competitive, and unions are often a formidable anti-competitive force. This was certainly the case in the Steel industry. There was plenty of blame to spread around : owners who were reluctant to invest in new equipment and labor unions that resisted new processes involving less labor and clung to out of date work rules, etc. Now none of them have jobs.

The typical shop steward is paid by the employer, but does no work. Perhaps this was necessary back in the days of industrial sweat shops, but it is only rarely needed now. Unions are rapidly disappearing from the private sector: only government service unions are growing.

0 Replies

Georgeob1
[quote="georgeob1"]And one of the chief reasons the steel mill is "long gone" is the recalcitrance of the Steelworker's Union. Economic life is inherently competitive, and unions are often a formidable anti-competitive force. This was certainly the case in the Steel industry. There was plenty of blame to spread around : owners who were reluctant to invest in new equipment and labor unions that resisted new processes involving less labor and clung to out of date work rules, etc. Now none of them have jobs.

The typical shop steward is paid by the employer, but does no work. Perhaps this was necessary back in the days of industrial sweat shops, but it is only rarely needed now. Unions are rapidly disappearing from the private sector: only government service unions are growing.[/quote]

Your non-factual knowledge of labor-management history as stated above should be embarrassing to you, but I suspect it won't be as I suspect a management bias in you.

I don't know where you got the idea that shop stewards do none of their employer's job requirement work. As a former shop steward who had to fulfill my steward responsibilities in addition to my regular full time job requirements, that is the dumbest claim I've heard in a long time. You've made a general claim as though it fit all employment, which is not true.

BBB

0 Replies

GeorgeOBI

georgeob1 wrote:

And one of the chief reasons the steel mill is "long gone" is the recalcitrance of the Steelworker's Union. Economic life is inherently competitive, and unions are often a formidable anti-competitive force. This was certainly the case in the Steel industry. There was plenty of blame to spread around : owners who were reluctant to invest in new equipment and labor unions that resisted new processes involving less labor and clung to out of date work rules, etc. Now none of them have jobs.

The typical shop steward is paid by the employer, but does no work. Perhaps this was necessary back in the days of industrial sweat shops, but it is only rarely needed now. Unions are rapidly disappearing from the private sector: only government service unions are growing.

---------------------------------------

I suggest you read up on the history of the US (taxpayer) Treasury bailout of the steel industry and learn what the steel company owners did with the money instead up upgrading their production plant technology. Then we can debate whether it was the unions that harmed the steel industry or was it the owner's greed.

BBB

0 Replies

You arnt a union man that is certian. I went with out a raise at our plant (a small midwest plant) for something like 8 years while our CEO took a million dollers a year from a plant that hadent made a profit for 12 years. He dident put any money into repairing and retooling for a period of 20 years. He shut down parts of the plant over those twenty years and sold off the equipmant. When it finally went broke the only ones to git away with any money were the top 6 managers. The rest of us got screwed out of the contracturial obligations we thought we had. WE also took raises during those 20 years that were much less than the cost of living. We were among the first Enrons. So dont give me this garbage about the union breaking the company, I was there and lived the theft of the company. You on the other hand have probebly only read about what you think you know.

0 Replies

Rabel22
Rabel22, your sad and disgusting story could be repeated thousands of times across the country.

The new breed of amoral corporations will be the downfall of the US. Where is a new Theodore Roosevelt when we need him?

BBB

0 Replies

Actually I have been President of two companies that employed large numbers of union employees: one with about 700 employees from the building trades and another 1000 or so from the metal trades, and a few from the laborers union as well; the second company involved about 2000 employees represented by the steelworkers union and another 100 or so from the building trades.

I had occasion to get to know Bob Georgine and James Becker fairly well. I oversaw the negotiation of at least four major collective bargaining agreements, which took us all through some fairly wrenching changes. Overall I found the building trades guys fairly easy to deal with, but the Steelworkers and Metal Trades very difficult and backward looking, and the Laborers Union to be crooked to the core. My chief learning was that the Unions were businesses just like mine. Their revenues were the dues we collected for them from the paychecks of our employees - that was how the senior folks from the national union saw things. The local folks often had a different viewpoint. I was tough in the bargaining, but I kept my word with the union negotiators and overall we got along fairly well.

With the steelworkers we had one shop steward for every 75 employees. None of them did any productive work for the company. In fact many were not even qualified for the jobs they nominally were paid to perform. We got rid of these paid positions when we renegotiated the CBA and then discovered the lack of qualification on the part of the stewards.

I do know something about all this.

0 Replies

rabel22, why didn't you quit and go find another job?

0 Replies

rabel22 wrote:

You arnt a union man that is certian. I went with out a raise at our plant (a small midwest plant) for something like 8 years while our CEO took a million dollers a year from a plant that hadent made a profit for 12 years. He dident put any money into repairing and retooling for a period of 20 years. He shut down parts of the plant over those twenty years and sold off the equipmant. When it finally went broke the only ones to git away with any money were the top 6 managers. The rest of us got screwed out of the contracturial obligations we thought we had. WE also took raises during those 20 years that were much less than the cost of living. We were among the first Enrons. So dont give me this garbage about the union breaking the company, I was there and lived the theft of the company. You on the other hand have probebly only read about what you think you know.

Why didn't the plant make a profit for those 20 years? Whose fault was that? Sounds like the owners took a serious bath during that period. I assume the plant's employees were all paid their negotiated rates throughout this period of steady losses. Was the CEO an owner?

I agree there have been too many cases in which senior managers have milked dying companies and got away just in time. In such cases both the owners and the workers are the losers. However in my experience the underlying failure of the company is usually the result of both defective management and overpriced labor. We face growing competition from lower cost producers from overseas. We must either beat them at their own game or let the business go and invest in other activities. The alternatives to this are uneconomical subsidies, lower productivity and eventually less for all.

0 Replies

Columnist Robert Novak has ties to Anti-Kerry book

Related Topics

Quick Links

My Account

able2know