13
   

Are Gods Judgments righteous?

 
 
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Tue 29 Mar, 2016 09:59 am
@Leadfoot,
see the God of Israel had just given the Egyptians 10 very strong warnings via the plagues to which Pharaoh had acquiesced and allowed them to leave, this was then followed by a physical statement of his protection via the pillar/wall of fire that divided the Egyptians from the Israelites, despite all of this, they made a stand of defiance against this God, wise no?

If a man takes a decided and relatively informed stand against God or indeed his people, is it an act requiring judgment or an act requiring a response? Is there a difference between the two?

Zechariah referred to an act against Gods people as like "touching the pupil of his eye"

0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Tue 29 Mar, 2016 12:50 pm
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

Sure, but that's only if you believe Genesis 3 to begin with. Otherwise, the issue is moot.
touché, under your premise, you would be correct assuming no other differentials are introduced.,


Other differentials such as?

Smileyrius wrote:
An interesting question on the side...
In the bobble, is a warning always given prior to the execution of any given judgment, and is there always a way out ascribed, are any examples available where either of these steps are not met?


I'm not aware of any warning given to the Midianites.
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 02:51 am
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
Other differentials such as?

see I have no suggestions, you know me, I never EVER deal in absolutes EVER! so just a meaningless clause

Quote:
I'm not aware of any warning given to the Midianites.

You might be right, but like the Egyptians, the Midianites had been working very decidedly against the Israelites and their God, not only did they hire the prophet Balaam to curse Israel, the Midianites and Moabites, at Balaam’s advice, used their women to induce thousands of Israelite males to commit sexual immorality and idolatry in connection with Baal of Peor in order to make their God angry with them. They employed a direct tactic to undermine their favoured position with God that they may destroy them, this showed that like the Egyptians they were aware of this Gods power, but opposed him anyway.

I certainly think it is an interesting point that You and Lead have highlighted. The bible God did not appear to give any considerations to those that set themselves up as enemies of him or his people.
Leadfoot
 
  2  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 07:45 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
The bible God did not appear to give any considerations to those that set themselves up as enemies of him or his people.

What I find interesting is that many who find that lack of consideration unforgivable about God are often the same people who object to comparing God to ourselves. If they believe there is no reason to believe God is like us, why would they expect God to act like us?

But at the heart of their reasoning is merely a justification for not seriously considering the existence of God. After all, one cannot be expected to believe in the irrational. But God's behavior is irrational only if you do not consider that he has a carefully defined goal which he is committed to.

Those who object to God's judgements in the past will probably find them even more abhorrent in the future when even many who profess to follow him are weeded out. This too is not irrational in view of the goal. It would make no sense to give the power to turn thought into action to people who would hate their brother for his thoughts which pose no threat to anyone.
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 08:22 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
What I find interesting is that many who find that lack of consideration unforgivable about God are often the same people who object to comparing God to ourselves. If they believe there is no reason to believe God is like us, why would they expect God to act like us?

What I find interesting is how you cannot see that it is an imagined god who contracts human henchmen to fulfill its desire for vengeance. The slaughter of the Midianites was not an act of the god; it was the act of humans.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 09:11 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
What I find interesting is how you cannot see that it is an imagined god who contracts human henchmen to fulfill its desire for vengeance. The slaughter of the Midianites was not an act of the god; it was the act of humans.

What is your point? If you have dismissed God as imaginary, why get all riled up about the Midianites? People have been slaughtering others all through history.

Is your point that 'People suck'?
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 09:17 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
People have been slaughtering others all through history.

I didn't say I was riled. I said I find it interesting that others, like yourself, would attempt to justify the slaughter of a people by calling it the act of a god when it was clearly the act of man.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 09:33 am
@Glennn,
So you see Moses as Hitler in this scenario.

Fair enough. If there is no God as you believe then how else could you see it?
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 09:42 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
So you see Moses as Hitler in this scenario. Fair enough. If there is no God as you believe then how else could you see it?

We're talking about Moses, not Hitler. But since you've mentioned it, why did you make the comparison? Do you see similarities?

Even if the god existed, Moses slaughtered a people.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 10:11 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
Even if the god existed, Moses slaughtered a people.

The case where God exists IS the scenario of the OP.

I made the Hitler comment based on your scenario where there was no real God. If there wasn't, then Moses was just another Hitler, claiming his race was superior to others and killing the others off. But we are looking at the case where there is a God who directed Moses.

So yes, Moses, at the direction of God, avenged the children of Israel.

My point is that it was justified given God's goal and who he is.
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 10:20 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
If there wasn't (a god), then Moses was just another Hitler,

Well, when you put it that way, then Moses does resemble Hitler, doesn't he? If you could only prove that the god exists, then Moses is not just another Hitler. However, you cannot.

You don't see the problem in your thinking. You claim that the god works under a different set of rules from that of humans. Therefore, you claim that when humans murder, it is a crime, but when the god murders, it is divine. So, how do you reconcile the idea of a god that orders humans to commit murder?

And what was the crime of the Midianites? Especially the children? I'm curious.

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 10:44 am
@Glennn,
Quote:
You don't see the problem in your thinking. You claim that the god works under a different set of rules from that of humans.

Actually, the rules are not different. They may appear to be if you do not understand the goals of those doing the deed. Do you condemn the U.S. and their Allies for the lives taken during WWII?

The picture is completely different depending on the goals and motives of the God or people involved. The children of the Midianites may have been no more guilty of anything than the children in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima or the fire bombing of Tokyo . They were just in the way of the goal.
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 11:15 am
@Leadfoot,
Quote:
The children of the Midianites may have been no more guilty of anything than the children in the atomic bombing of Hiroshima or the fire bombing of Tokyo . They were just in the way of the goal.

Sure, if you're going to drop an atom bomb on cities filled with human beings, children will die. But we're not talking about the effects of atom bombs here. You are again being irrational in your attempt to justify the hands-on slaughter of children and babies.

The choice was there as to whether or not to murder them along with everyone else. So, how were these children in the way of the god's goals?

Oh, and for the record, what was the crime of the Midianites?
InfraBlue
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 12:29 pm
@Leadfoot,
Leadfoot wrote:
But God's behavior is irrational only if you do not consider that he has a carefully defined goal which he is committed to.


The goal itself is irrational given the conditions he set in the first place, e.g. free will, a false alternative.
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 01:19 pm
@InfraBlue,
Quote:
The goal itself is irrational given the conditions he set in the first place, e.g. free will, a false alternative.

Do you mean that free will is a 'false alternative' in itself or that it is incompatible with his goal?

What do you see as his goal? If you have no opinion on that yourself, what do you think the consensus of believers is of that goal?

Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 01:26 pm
@Glennn,
Quote:
You are again being irrational in your attempt to justify the hands-on slaughter of children and babies.

I make no moral distinction about the method used to kill people. An atom bomb is not morally superior or inferior to bare hands, sword, bow & arrow, bullets, artillery, setting fire to their city, etc.
Again, motivation and goal is the only differentiator.

Obviously I do think some goals are justified and others are not. It's the difference between killing and murder.
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 01:30 pm
@Leadfoot,
You must have misunderstood my questions. I'll repeat them.

The choice was there as to whether or not to murder children and babies along with everyone else. So, how were these children in the way of the god's goals?

Oh, and for the record, what was the crime of the Midianites
?
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 01:44 pm
@Glennn,
I should clarify that I do not know what God meant by 'Avenge the children of Israel'. Moses may have grossly over stepped his instructions from God in carrying that out. That is a question I have. Obviously Moses got something wrong because God punished his chosen people severely after that episode of history.

I'd like to hear from someone who knows what that reason was.

I think the question of why the Midianites had to go was answered some time ago. They posed some threat to the survival (spiritually or otherwise) of God's chosen people who were to play a key role in God's goal.
Glennn
 
  0  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 03:46 pm
@Leadfoot,
Well, I’ve been told that some Midianite women had sex with some Israelite men, and got them to worship another god. The god’s answer to that was to command Moses to go kill them all, which is basically telling them to commit murder.

If the “good” men of Chicago fall prey to the temptation of prostitutes in Peoria, you can solve the problem by gathering up your forces and wiping out every man, woman and child who live in Peoria. OR, you can punish the men in Chicago who went whoring after those prostitutes in Peoria . . .
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Wed 30 Mar, 2016 04:25 pm
@Glennn,
Well, persuading the Israelites to worship other gods would definitely qualify as threatening God's plan. As said before, destroying his own creation is well within the rights of a Creator. Fact is, we live at his pleasure and for the purpose of his goals. I don't see any irrationality in that.
 

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