6
   

Are Gods Judgments righteous?

 
 
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2016 05:34 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
By claiming 'inconsistency' all you are saying is that the particular aspect of 'yourself' engaged in and evoked by this discussion....the one that has a vested interest in promoting its 'absolutist stance'...is dissatisfied.....hence social impasse ! My particular aspect of 'self' present here could not care less about your current 'self's'view of 'consistency'. That self recognizes its own status is transient as is yours ! Our bodies/biological entities will disengage from this social context and depart for more common contexts involving tangible bodily co-operations, accompanied by language (both internal and external) which facilitates social co-ordination. Various 'selves' may be evoked by changing contests....'the partner'...'the parent'...the 'atheist' etc, each with its particular semantic network within which it can effectively operate. 'Consistency' is an idealist's myth. It may reside in some closed systems of mathematics, but as Paul Cohen showed, even those systems are dependent on choice of assumed axioms.
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2016 05:49 am
@fresco,
Quote:
Paul Cohen showed, even those systems are dependent on choice of assumed axioms.

Exactly but I was thinking about Godel instead... you need at least one or more axioms. What's yours eh ? Otherwise you saying nothing. I am not questioning the existence of contextual selfs...that's half way down the problem. You need to go further into abstract territory. Such selfs have a ratio of relation between each other that allows them being functional. They are not irrationally apart from each other. Such conclusion in turn forces you to admit a rational operating system between agents and therefore a World. One which is rational, that is, it has a DEFINED extension, and thus is finite. Countable. Again pragmatists ought to wonder why stuff works...not just parade around it.
fresco
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2016 06:51 am
@Fil Albuquerque,
But stuff doesn't work ! There are wars and other conflicts in which 'morals' contextually shift. Note BTW that the ants with their fixed communication networks have predated humans for millions of years and are likely to postdate them. Such is the price we pay for the advantages 'individual freedom' ! Smile
Fil Albuquerque
 
  1  
Reply Sat 12 Mar, 2016 06:59 am
@fresco,
Wars and conflicts are a form of mechanical contact to establish order and supremacy of one system in relation to another, culture to, is subjected to Darwinism...Hegel comes to mind, a synthesis comes out of such NEEDED conflicts. And stuff does work or you and I would not be talking at all with each other. It would be worse then Mandarin to French.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2016 06:31 am
@Amoh5,
My friend, I agree that Jesus words are more important than any other, what of Jesus words in Matthew 24:37-41, did God not bring judgment against the Antediluvian world? Did he not also bring judgement against the Egyptians or against Adam and Eve?
I would happily discuss validity of scripture outside of the Gospels in a separate thread if you wanted to open up a dialogue but I hope you understand I am trying to keep this thread on track. I appreciate your thoughts Amoh.
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Mon 14 Mar, 2016 07:51 am
@Smileyrius,
I do understand that you want to discuss mainly the Old Testament's interpretation of God and his judgement. There are many interpretations from many people in that book. So who do we believe and take seriously that their interpretation was genuine?
I have read the e-book "the dark bible" which highlights a lot of obscenities from the Old Testament which makes you wonder whether these individuals were actually talking to God or satan.
That's why I don't trust the interpretations of God from the Old Testament, they might just be leading you to satan...
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2016 04:26 am
@Amoh5,
Did Jesus not speak of the flood my friend?
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Tue 15 Mar, 2016 06:56 pm
@Smileyrius,
Yes he did talk about the flood from the Genesis. And to reply to your discussion question, yes I do agree that God's judgements are definitely righteous.
But what I am saying is that Lord Jesus did not always agree with some laws or the so-called judgements of God in the Old Testament. Like the divorce agreement, he did not agree with that being Gods true judgement.
There are a lot of obscene details in the Old Testament that I think Lord Jesus would never agree that they came from God.
So what I am really saying is that if the judgement is decent and family-like, then I would agree it came from God and therefore righteous. But if the judgement is indecent and unfamily-like then it doesn't come from God, it comes from satan...
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2016 08:15 am
@Smileyrius,
Smileyrius wrote:
My apologies Fresco, My intentions with regard to the Axiom was merely a poor attempt to avoid diverting discussion away from the principle idea, I find discussions in this forum often drift into certain key religious debates such as "does God exist" "where is the proof for your invisible friend in the sky" and why take the bible so literally". What I am trying to encourage is a healthy discussion regarding the putative God as recorded in scripture, and the way in which he has dealt with mankind. Whether one discusses it hypothetically, as with a fictional character in a storybook, or as a real intelligent being, is down to the reader.

Examples of judgments I could propose for discussion would be for instance amongst others, the Edenic judgment, the Antediluvian Judgment, The 10 Plagues and Destruction of Jerusalem
Ok.
The Edenic judgement:
Many argue the first humans were designed to fail.
But how could that be if God's works are perfect?
And how does it fit with our concept of free will?
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2016 09:05 am
@Smileyrius,
As a Christian, I percieve Lord Jesus as the only perfect interpretor of God in the bible. Other interpretors in the bible are not perfect. When I judge the literature in the Old Testament I always consider what Lord Jesus would think of that. I'm not saying everything in the Old Testament is wrong, I'm just saying that some of it is wrong and I would doubt its validity as being a genuine judgement from God and therefore righteous. Only Lord Jesus can tell us if an assumed judgement of God is genuine or not...
0 Replies
 
Leadfoot
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2016 09:35 am
@neologist,
Quote:
The Edenic judgement:
Many argue the first humans were designed to fail.
But how could that be if God's works are perfect?
And how does it fit with our concept of free will?

'designed to fail' is a misnomer, at least of my POV.
Only comparison I can think of off hand is our efforts to create a true AI. To qualify, it would have to be capable of learning virtually everything on it's own. In doing so, it is inevitable that it would make mistakes but for the purposes of the goal, those mistakes would not be 'a failure'. Indeed, learning from those mistakes would be the hallmark of perfection and success.

Not to mention that the 'AI's' free will in making those mistakes is an obvious requirement. It all dove tails very nicely in my view.

In the 'disobedience/failure' view of Eden, it makes us preprogrammed computers who failed to follow instructions properly. I just don't see any beauty in that scenario.
0 Replies
 
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Wed 16 Mar, 2016 10:53 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
Whether theoretical or literal, how does one go about reconciling a God of judgments such as these with a God of love?


It is really not something that needs "reconciling", so to speak But in order to understand this we should probably clarify belief first. As we all know there are a million different beliefs out there. Not referring solely to religion here, of course. The problem is there are just so many different ways to look at any one thing. It's easy to get lost in all the information...

Or on the contrary, to just pick a side and remain stubbornly there, because it's easier... and everything in between too. No matter what a person chooses to believe the key is actually found in the core of that belief. Because in all honesty, you can say you "believe" something, but your actions reveal if you really do or not.

Truly believing anything requires the one who believes it to understand it as well. You can't say and really mean you believe something if you don't understand it. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest cracks in the foundation of the Christian church now a days. Not understanding this simple concept, or perhaps leaving it out on purpose in an effort to brainwash the simple-minded. I am certain we have all seen this.

The blind leading the blind.

I hate to use this as an example, as I don't want to disturb a hornet's nest... But dagnabit... It's the best one I can think of. So here's my disclaimer lol: Everything I am about to say is solely for the purpose of the point I would like to make. That's all.

Think about science. An amazing part of our existence, btw. Smile So, what does science do exactly? They look at life through a microscope. This allows them to see things that cannot be seen with the natural eye. They take things apart down to the molecul, and then rebuild it, or attempt to, in order to better understand it's structure, how it works, and even possibly how to recreate it.

Which is not a bad thing. The problem is if you spend your life looking through a microscope you will never see the bigger picture. It takes more to understand something than just picking it apart and rebuilding it. While that is a necessary part of the process, it is not the only part. Because everything amounts to something, impacts something else other than itself, and therefore is much more in fact than just whatever it's made of. It is important to understand every aspect of something to truly understand it.

Now, having said all that... In Genesis 1:27 it says:

27 So God created man in His own image; in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them.

To believers this means more than just God having male and female attributes, because this is more than just a physical thing. The God that gave us the physical and non physical attributes, also gave us emotional attributes, as well. Do we not all have some sort of creative ability of some sort? Creating things is part of learning, growing, and well... Living. Another attribute gained from Him. As the Creator, I say He has the right to undo anything He's done. After all, we do don't we?


0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2016 10:57 am
@Amoh5,
Quote:
I think Lord Jesus would never agree that they came from God.

When the apostle Paul wrote in his letter to Timothy in 2Timothy 3 14-17 that the holy scriptures he had known from birth would make him wise for salvation, fully quipped for every good work, which scriptures do you suppose he was speaking of?
If you believe the bible is corrupted by men, what assures you that the Gospels are not?
What of Revelation 22 verse 19, if you discard the Hebrew scriptures that were so well used by Jesus and his apostle are you not in danger of falling foul of its command?
I appreciate your love for the Words of Jesus my friend, we share that much in common
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Thu 17 Mar, 2016 02:44 pm
@Smileyrius,
I'm not saying everything in the Old Testament is wrong. All I'm saying is that there are scriptures in the Old Testament that I think Lord Jesus tells me is not his or God's judgement. You must remember that the comprehension of God by people in the Old and New Testament was not perfect, so they didn't always get it right, especially all the horrible indecent stuff.
Only Lord Jesus is perfect at comprehending God and his judgements.
That's why if I read other scripture that does not involve Lord Jesus and his words, I always seek his mediation to determine whether or not he agrees with that scripture. I always confide in Lord Jesus when I'm reading scripture.
I think this is where a lot of fundamentalists go wrong, they don't confide in the spirit of Lord Jesus to determine whether a scripture actually came from God or not.
Just because a scripture contains the words "God"or "Lord Jesus," doesn't necessarily mean it came from them. You have to confide in the spirit of Lord Jesus first...
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2016 07:45 am
@neologist,
neo wrote:
The Edenic judgement:
Many argue the first humans were designed to fail.
But how could that be if God's works are perfect?
And how does it fit with our concept of free will?

If one was designed to fail, and succeeded, Would he be judged a success or a failure? Can he truly be judged at all if his ways are determined.

If God is to judge man by his choice, the only way this god could be just is if the choice was mans to make. In order however for free will to make sense, there has to be something about our existence that exceeds causality, or any kind of judgment is rendered unjust and quite unnecessary. on the other hand If free will exists, judgment is absolutely necessary to establish a difference between right and wrong. Without right and wrong we have no laws, and how therefore could God establish a "paradise"?



0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2016 09:19 am
@Amoh5,
All I would say Amoh, if you believe that the bible has been partially corrupted, how can you trust any of its words. Part of the reason for this thread, is to discuss some of what people believe to be "horrible or indecent" judgments. Which judgments in the Hebrew scriptures do you believe came from Satan that were attributed to God?
Quote:
I think this is where a lot of fundamentalists go wrong, they don't confide in the spirit of Lord Jesus to determine whether a scripture actually came from God or not.
we use the same scriptures that the first century Christians used, i.e those that can be found in the 5000+ references allusions and direct quotes of Hebrew texts in the Christian Greek Scriptures. I would hazard that Im not the only one, tho I cant speak for anyone else, but I never approach the book without prayer and meditation
Amoh5
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2016 09:58 am
@Smileyrius,
Here are some Old Testament examples highlighted from "the dark bible." Some scripture has obviously been twisted deliberately by the author. But there are some that are questionable.
http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm
onevoice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2016 10:00 am
@Smileyrius,
Quote:
All I would say Amoh, if you believe that the bible has been partially corrupted, how can you trust any of its words. Part of the reason for this thread, is to discuss some of what people believe to be "horrible or indecent" judgments. Which judgments in the Hebrew scriptures do you believe came from Satan that were attributed to God?


I'm not sure if this is exactly the point amoh is trying to get across, but this is what I got out of it... Think about a car accident. The police question the three people who remained to help out. Each one of them gives an account of what happened, yet each story has a variation to it. One person was more impacted by the fact that the blue car ran the red light.

But another doesn't even mention that because they were more impacted by the fact that the blue car t-boned mini van that had children in it and didn't notice why. The third however, may vaguely mention a few of those things, but they were most impacted by the white car that cut in front of the blue car at just the right moment, taking their attention off of the light momentarily because they had to swerve to miss them.

It is through gathering all the facts from all three accounts that the police are able to piece together what happened. Each piece is vital, but uniquely different even though they are all talking about the same thing. That's because the individuals are all uniquely different and so are their perspectives. So, just as many are perceiving some of these things as "horrible or indecent" judgments, theirs isn't the only perspective. You have to gather all of the information in order to make an accurate judgement about something.
0 Replies
 
Smileyrius
 
  3  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2016 10:33 am
@Amoh5,
I appreciate that Amoh, I might struggle as I cant access the site from work, could you cut and paste an example for me, it might be nice to open it up for consideration
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Fri 18 Mar, 2016 11:19 am
@Amoh5,
If some 'scripture' has been twisted, then the whole source is suspect. I agree with Smiley. Cut and paste your best example.
0 Replies
 
 

Related Topics

Another day when there is no God - Discussion by edgarblythe
Is "God" just our conscience? - Question by Groomers123
believe in god! - Question by roammer
The existence of God - Question by jwagner
What did God do on Day 8? - Question by HesDeltanCaptain
What do you think about world? - Question by Joona
 
Copyright © 2020 MadLab, LLC :: Terms of Service :: Privacy Policy :: Page generated in 0.05 seconds on 08/07/2020 at 03:54:41