Which Religion is the One True Religion?

maporsche wrote:

RexRed wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Frank, That's part of the "secret" message from god that only believers can interpret correctly.

Yes, the Bible says that the life of the soul begins at the first breath...

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Comment:
The message is no secret... it only takes objectivity.

When you take your first breath you are alive... when you take your last breath you are dead... no big enigma in that.

Can you murder something that is not alive?

Can something be alive without the breath of life?

In the following two places in the bible, no value is placed on humans under 1 month of age

Leviticus 27:6 "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver."
[No value is placed upon babies (or fetuses) less than one month old.]

Numbers 3:15-16 "Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD."
[Babies (or fetuses) less than one month old are not counted as persons by God.]

So, I guess it's another case of picking what parts of the bible to believe.

Many warrantees last only a month Smile

If it don't break down in the first month it should last years...

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What I said was, "All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?"

I did not say, ""Imposter clearly implied that the job wasn't getting done because Christians weren't fulfilling the commands of Christ."

Although that's all part of the hypocrisy.

1. Religionists doesn't believe in abortion, because it kills a potential life.
2. There are starving children in Niger. Thousands upon thousands of them.
3. The religionists are not helping the starving children of Niger, because they believe their donations do not reach them - according to real life.
4. Religionists make a stink about an embryo that is not considered a human life, and want to impose their belief on the host they don't even know.
5. They ignore the living, starving children in Niger. Not all, but people like real life who confuses an embryo with a living human being.
6. The contradictions are a) their definition of life, and b) not all life is treated equally.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

What I said was, "All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?"

I did not say, ""Imposter clearly implied that the job wasn't getting done because Christians weren't fulfilling the commands of Christ."

Although that's all part of the hypocrisy.

1. Religionists doesn't believe in abortion, because it kills a potential life.
2. There are starving children in Niger. Thousands upon thousands of them.
3. The religionists are not helping the starving children of Niger, because they believe their donations do not reach them - according to real life.
4. Religionists make a stink about an embryo that is not considered a human life, and want to impose their belief on the host they don't even know.
5. They ignore the living, starving children in Niger. Not all, but people like real life who confuses an embryo with a living human being.
6. The contradictions are a) their definition of life, and b) not all life is treated equally.

The world needs to declare an edict for democracy.

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timberlandko wrote:

real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

As far as I know...Planned Parenthood does not have a vested dollar interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

Give it a rest, Frank. You are not that naive and neither is anyone else here.

Substantiate your assertion, real life; what vested financial interest does Planned Parenthood (an organization of which I am not particularly fond, BTW) have in "keepng abortions legal and profitable?" Actually, verifiably, have - I'm not interested in anecdotes and claims here; produce SEC and IRS filings.

Does PP give FREE abortions Timber? No.

You are not ignorant of this.

timberlandko wrote:

real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm not sure of your point here.

Yes I know. That is why you need to rethink this, Frank.

I have no reason to doubt Frank has thought and rethought the issue quite dilligently. Were there the slightest reason to harbor any suspicion whatsoever you've given the issue any rational thought whatsoever, I would suggest you rethink things. Not caring to issue a pointless challenge, I will not offer any such suggestion.

Hasn't stopped you before. Why should now be different?

If you have no reason to doubt that Frank has thought this thru, then perhaps you should read his post.

He clearly ( at least pretends to ) misunderstands the meaning of the figures on the PP website.

90% of women use traditional contraception beforehand. Good. However, that does not mean that NONE of those women have used abortion as contraception.

The site clearly states that a huge percentage of unintended pregnancies are related to the failure of these traditional contraceptive methods.

Are we to believe that NONE of these women who tried not to become pregnant would then resort to abortion to cover for the failed contraception?

This line of the argument grew from my assertion that abortion was used as contraception most of the time. The Planned Parenthood site admits that abortion is employed in HALF of unintended pregnancies.

A little more eye opening is this:

from http://www.agi-usa.org/presentations/abort_slides.pdf

PRCH & Guttmacher copyright 2005

Most Important Reason Given for Terminating an Unwanted Pregnancy

Inadequate Finances 21%
Not ready for Responsibility 21%
Woman's life would be changed too much 16%
Problems with Relationship; Unmarried 12%
Too young; Not mature enough 11%
Children are grown; woman has all she wants 8%
Fetus has possible health problem 3%
Woman has health problem 3%
Pregnancy caused by rape, incest 1%
Other 4%

Average number of reasons given 3.7

Source: Torres and Forrest , 1988 (1987 data)

Again, this is data that any one else could have gotten access to. It's all simple to find. But it's a lot easier to close the eyes and say "'taint so".

Still I can already hear some of you spinning the data. "Well, you see ! Contraception is not even listed as a cause" !

Don't bother trying that torturous twist of logic. Even PP doesn't try to get away with it. Don't try this at home, folks.

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Ok if i did not say anything you would all think you are right...

The tree of life is at the center of the universe and the sun encircles the earth... the metaphysical plane is flat not round.

You omit the spiritual kingdom of the soul and confuse it with the physical kingdom..

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Here's a link to UNICEF where you can make donations for Niger.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/niger_27639.html

Hellllllllllloooooooooooooooooooooo

Imposter, what does the "UN" in UNICEF stand for?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

What I said was, "All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?"

I did not say, ""Imposter clearly implied that the job wasn't getting done because Christians weren't fulfilling the commands of Christ."

Although that's all part of the hypocrisy.

1. Religionists doesn't believe in abortion, because it kills a potential life.
2. There are starving children in Niger. Thousands upon thousands of them.
3. The religionists are not helping the starving children of Niger, because they believe their donations do not reach them - according to real life.
4. Religionists make a stink about an embryo that is not considered a human life, and want to impose their belief on the host they don't even know.
5. They ignore the living, starving children in Niger. Not all, but people like real life who confuses an embryo with a living human being.
6. The contradictions are a) their definition of life, and b) not all life is treated equally.

What I actually said was that aid channeled thru the UN was likely to be largely mismanaged or stolen before any remainder gets to Niger.

What I did not say (but you did imply) was that there is no Christian relief efforts going on in Niger, because there certainly is.

Why should anyone trust your judgement on this when you can't even bring yourself to use the word "mother" to describe a pregnant woman. You say "host" as if the child is a parasite or a fungus of some sort.

What kind of twisted thinking prevents you from using the word "mother" to refer to a pregnant woman ? You seem somewhat disconnected from reality, Imposter.

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If we kill our babies who will pay for the baby boom?
If we breed and over tax the earth who will pay...

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

As far as I know...Planned Parenthood does not have a vested dollar interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

Give it a rest, Frank. You are not that naive and neither is anyone else here.

Visit their site, www.plannedparenthood.com. There are many more sections about topics like adoption, birth control, sexual health, sexually transmitted diseases, parenting, health in general, etc.

To even suggest that they have a vested interest in abortions is absurd. Their vested interest is in proper planned parenthood. Their interest in is the quality of life for the parents and their children.

Your mind needs to grow up.

Perhaps you should study the history of Planned Parenthood, when and why they began, who some of their intellectual guides were. Go and read what they said and wrote, not just what others wrote about them years later.

They may not turn out to be the altruistic saints that you may expect.

Then find out where their money comes from.

Don't ask me to do your research for you. You're old enough to reach the top shelf at the library , aren't you ?

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UNICEF has helped more people in this world than you are willing to admit. I travel extensively, and find many good works done by UNICEF. As a world-wide charitable organization with thousands of workers, it's not surprising to find some mismanagment and fraud. They have identified fraud problems, and corrected them.

Rather than criticizing UNICEF, why don't you make any effort to find charitable organizations THAT YOU trust.

Here's the link for Doctors Without Borders.
http://www.doctorswithoutborders.org/

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With all of the Bible quoting concerning fetuses and abortion, I am surprized that no one brought up Numbers 5:11-31, where the Lord appears to give a curse that causes abortions in unfaithful wives.

Quote:

11 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
12 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, If any man's wife go aside, and commit a trespass against him,
13 And a man lie with her carnally, and it be hid from the eyes of her husband, and be kept close, and she be defiled, and there be no witness against her, neither she be taken with the manner;
14 And the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be defiled: or if the spirit of jealousy come upon him, and he be jealous of his wife, and she be not defiled:
15 Then shall the man bring his wife unto the priest, and he shall bring her offering for her, the tenth part of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil upon it, nor put frankincense thereon; for it is an offering of jealousy, an offering of memorial, bringing iniquity to remembrance.
16 And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD:
17 And the priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel; and of the dust that is in the floor of the tabernacle the priest shall take, and put it into the water:
18 And the priest shall set the woman before the LORD, and uncover the woman's head, and put the offering of memorial in her hands, which is the jealousy offering: and the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that causeth the curse:
19 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse:
20 But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband:
21 Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell;
22 And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.
23 And the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall blot them out with the bitter water:
24 And he shall cause the woman to drink the bitter water that causeth the curse: and the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter.
25 Then the priest shall take the jealousy offering out of the woman's hand, and shall wave the offering before the LORD, and offer it upon the altar:
26 And the priest shall take an handful of the offering, even the memorial thereof, and burn it upon the altar, and afterward shall cause the woman to drink the water.
27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people.
28 And if the woman be not defiled, but be clean; then she shall be free, and shall conceive seed.
29 This is the law of jealousies, when a wife goeth aside to another instead of her husband, and is defiled;
30 Or when the spirit of jealousy cometh upon him, and he be jealous over his wife, and shall set the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute upon her all this law.
31 Then shall the man be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.

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"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Is this another "secret" message for the devout christians? Have they seen a woman's thigh rot?

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ooga booga

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Is this another "secret" message for the devout christians? Have they seen a woman's thigh rot?

I think that is prophecy about the bride of christ...

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Will we ever conquer the dualism within ourselves to find the true image of God?

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cicerone imposter wrote:

"27 And when he hath made her to drink the water, then it shall come to pass, that, if she be defiled, and have done trespass against her husband, that the water that causeth the curse shall enter into her, and become bitter, and her belly shall swell, and her thigh shall rot: and the woman shall be a curse among her people."

Is this another "secret" message for the devout christians? Have they seen a woman's thigh rot?

The New International Version gives "her abdomen will swell and her thigh waste away," but adds in the footnotes that an alternate translation is "she will have barrenness and a miscarrying womb." The New Revised Standard Version, one of the most respected translations by scholars, gives "her womb shall discharge, her uterus drop," which more clearly indicates an abortion procedure.
Source

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Jesus was aborted on the cross...

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Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:
You state it is not killing without giving the slightest pretext to addressing the medical state of the child, (if he has a heartbeat, if he has brainwaves, etc.) we are just supposed to take your say so that nobody is dying.

Correct. NOBODY IS DYING. A fetus or an embryo is being aborted.

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:
The issue of whether the baby is alive is a medical one, but you don't want to address that.

I have addressed that. There is no baby to be alive. It is a fetus or an embryo.

No you haven't addressed it. You have avoided it. In an earlier post you asked what do heartbeat and brainwaves have to do with it?

Can you address this Frank? Are you able? Whether you call it a fetus or an embryo or a baby, this has heartbeat and brainwaves at a very early stage. Is it alive? Are you afraid to answer this question?

Go ahead, give it the old agnostic "I don't know" treatment.

And next time you come across an accident and the victim has heartbeat and brainwaves, tell him you're not sure if he's alive or not. There is just not enough unambiguous evidence to make a guess, right?

Just avoid it. He'll go away and you can go back to your existence, if you have been able to determine that you have one.

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real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
"]
real life wrote:
The issue of whether the baby is alive is a medical one, but you don't want to address that.

I have addressed that. There is no baby to be alive. It is a fetus or an embryo.

No you haven't addressed it.

Oh yes I have.

I said....as you quoted here....that there is no baby to be alive. It is a fetus or an embryo.

Quote:

You have avoided it. In an earlier post you asked what do heartbeat and brainwaves have to do with it?

A heartbeat and brainwaves do not make a fetus or an embryo a baby. They still are fetuses and embryos.

How more clear can that be?

When the fetus exits the body of the woman....it is a baby.

Quote:

Can you address this Frank? Are you able?

Yes I can. Are you able to understand it?

Quote:

Whether you call it a fetus or an embryo or a baby, this has heartbeat and brainwaves at a very early stage.

Well...then call it a fetus or an embryo.

I have a heartbeat and brainwaves...and I am not a baby. My pet cat has a heartbeat and brainwaves...and it is not a baby.

Having a goddam heartbeat and have some goddam brainwaves does not make an object a baby.

Quote:

Is it alive? Are you afraid to answer this question?

No I am not afraid to answer this question....and if I were not talking with someone with severe learning disabilities....the fact that I have answered it would be obvious.

IT IS NOT ALIVE!

Not until it is born.

Quote:

Go ahead, give it the old agnostic "I don't know" treatment.

Don't have to in this case.

Quote:

And next time you come across an accident and the victim has heartbeat and brainwaves, tell him you're not sure if he's alive or not. There is just not enough unambiguous evidence to make a guess, right?

Just avoid it. He'll go away and you can go back to your existence, if you have been able to determine that you have one.

This is so stupid...it seems even beneath your level of understanding.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Is it alive? Are you afraid to answer this question?

No I am not afraid to answer this question....and if I were not talking with someone with severe learning disabilities....the fact that I have answered it would be obvious.

IT IS NOT ALIVE!

Not until it is born.

Actually, Frank, though I agree with you on your stance, I must have to disagree with this particular statement.

By definition the embryo is alive and so is the fetus. However, also by definition, the sperm and oocyte that fused to give the fetus were also alive, yet clearly we don't give a damn about the million or so sperm that die on their way to the oocyte and we clearly don't give a damn about the constant dying of live skin cells and alive red blood cells in our body.

Us men are constantly creating sperm, even as we sit down and type these messages (unless, of course, you're sterile). They are constantly being turned over, killed and recycled, however. They are living things. Does that mean we are constantly mass-murdering our own cells?

The question is not whether the embryo or fetus is alive. The answer is an undoubtable yes.

The question is, would the fetus have survived after abortion anyway and even if it had, would it have had a good quality of life? If by bringing up the baby in a loveless poor family, are we condemning this kid to a life of crime, drug abuse, maybe even prostitution?

The end result is what we should be questioning.

No doubt, the end result is that what was once alive is dead.

However, the question we should really answer is, is what kind of life will this kid live and wouldn't it be cruel to condemn it to a life where there is no hope?

Christians hate the sin and not the sinner.

But sin is one of those things that are nurtured through several psychological factors and if those factors are overwhelmingly against the kid, are we not condemning him to a life of sin?

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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

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