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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
VMinuteman
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 10:13 pm
What if I told you Jesus spoke to me? His teaching to His followers was to go and be "witnesses". Think of it, to be a witness one needs to have had an experience. It says that when Jesus died the veil in the temple was ripped wide open. Personally I think this was done to reveal, for the world to see, that the place where God was supposed to be was in fact empty (remember the wizard behind the curtain in the Wizard of Oz?). Being empty meant that the religious leader had been lying by saying God was present. I'm sure you have heard many witnesses testify and stories about witnesses. Moses, for instance, was a witness. So weren't all the Prophets. The list of witnesses is long, very long. Unfortunately, believing witnesses TOTALLY won't work because mixed in with the true are the false teachers. Wouldn't be easier if God just came down and struck the false teachers dead? That would make it a lot easier to decide wouldn't it? If half the people who wrote in spouting their various ideas were suddenly wiped out to prevent our corruption wouldn't that be a "good" thing? And then the remainder could write about the experience, couldn't they? And then people could believe just because we wrote that all down and then people wouldn't have to die anymore for being false teachers. Sounds alot like the Bible stories doesn't it?
And let's suppose God Himself came right down and got in the face of these talking heads. Would it change them? Some would, but then again some wouldn't. Why? Because there are certain types of people that NEVER will follow God. They are comfortable in their evil. They "prefer the darkness to the light".
But as a Christian I am a witness and testify of what Jesus gave us when He left, i.e. the Holy Spirit. Jesus said this was a deposit, a sort of down payment that will bear witness and testify to us. In order to witness to us it must communicate to us, in some fashion. It comes down, then, to TRUST. The message has been delivered, the work that God needed to do is done, and now each human being needs to look at his own heart HONESTLY and begin to trust God to be responsible enough to accomplish what HE set out to do. Ultimately, if God isn't trying to save us then all our efforts are in vain. But if HE is, then our eternal life is guarenteed.
0 Replies
 
JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 11:22 pm
Vminuiteman, I'm pleased that you are fulfilled, or at least feel fulfilled, in your religion. But I have no idea what you've witnessed. I witness my immediate reality every moment and find it complete and Wholly. I feel no need to "witness" biblical claims, especially those of the fabulous old testament and those attributed to Jesus of Nazarus, decades and centures after his death. And I certainly cannot appreciate the intellectually immature fairytale literalism of any form of fundamentalism, whether it be christian, musllim, judaic, hindu or buddhist. But that's just me.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Mon 16 Aug, 2004 11:50 pm
Vminuteman,

I feel the same way as JLN here. I am glad you have found what you have found. Actually, Christianity is probably the religion I came closest to taking the leap of faith with. In fact, there was a time that I fasted, prayed, and spent several weeks alone, asking the Holy Spirit to visit me. Asking to hear "Jesus speak to me," as you mention.

I waited. And waited. And waited. Hours, days, weeks. Nothing. I thought perhaps my heart was not open in the correct way. So I tried various different approaches. And waited. And prayed. And waited. And meditated on it. Still nothing. Perhaps I didn't read the Bible correctly. Re-read it. Nothing. I pursued this path for over a year. Most the Christians I met during this time seemed like relative lightweights. They didn't examine what they were reading, they just believed. Which is fine for them, if that is what they wanted to do. I, however, longed for a direct experience with the eternal. I could not believe any god would separate us, then ask us to simply believe in basically a book that has been handed down, misinterpreted, translated to fit political purposes, etc. What kind of god would give you a document like that and say place your eternal soul on this? Granted, the Bible has some great wisdom and love in its pages. But its mixed with so much confusion. I do especially like the "red letter" portions of the Bible that just include what Jesus said. Still, even this, has been written by the hand of man several centuries after his death. The Bible has been changed so many times in 2000 years. Not to mention the arbitrary exclusion of certain books such as The Book of Thomas and other "heretical" Gnostic Gospel books certain church groups didn't want included. And even if one does decide to become Christian, you have the situation where various denonimations claim they are the one and only way, claiming that members of other denominations will burn. So, if anything, I wanted that more direct experience of spirit that you speak of. I asked from my heart of hearts for Jesus to guide me. And waited. Nothing. And waited. Nothing....
It would have been easy enough to make up some elaborate story. But...nothing. Silence. Endless silence.

So, I am left in this world with nothing but this mind, this brain, us, and reality. Yes, I could read your account and think "Hmmm...this person says Jesus spoke to them. S/he seems to really believe it. S/he seems honest enough, intelligent, heck, why not just follow this religion." But the thing is, others throughout history have made various claims that they have been visited by Buddha, Mohammed, Krishna, the Great Spirit in the Sky, spiritual aliens, etc. Is there any way you can prove that your religion is more valid in any way than these (without resorting to scripture, which all the followers of all the various religions could equally do).

Why should someone choose to follow Christianity over any other religion? A reason that is in the here & now?

Please know that I am not trying to be critical.

Actually, I hope that you can prove your case.
0 Replies
 
VMinuteman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 02:04 pm
"Actually, I hope that you can prove your case."

And how might I do that, Lord over Jesus Christ himself and force His appearance to you? Go over and raise someone from the dead? I did pray for someone that had a medically incurable disease once and they were healed but raising someone from the dead?

And if you believed me then what? I mean if you believe me and continue to live separated from God what good is that. You've kind of built a little trap it seems. If I pity party with you about not hearing from God I, in effect, say that He is not faithful to His word. As if to say that you sought Him, He didn't show up, and its all His fault. If I condemn you as being "God deaf" by choice and going through your own act to make yourself feel righteous then I'm sure I'll be cast with the "evil" religious ones you all have constructed in your minds.
Like with JL. He/she says "I witness my immediate reality every moment and find it complete and Wholly." Wow! I wish I could do that! Duhh, everyone witnesses their own NATURAL reality and don't really need it. He/she says "I feel no need to "witness" biblical claims," Well, I would say that is good, and on the right track, so to speak, because if you did witness to it you'de be a liar because by your own admission you haven't witness it.(I MIGHT choose you to be on a jury). He/she goes on "And I certainly cannot appreciate the intellectually immature fairytale literalism of any form of fundamentalism, whether it be christian, musllim, judaic, hindu or buddhist. But that's just me.". Right again, it is just you. Entirely by yourself.
But back to being a witness. I can agree with almost everything said about organized religions. What does that prove,? Nada, because even Jesus said there would be many false teachers and at the judgement their gonna try their charade on Him(without success). The bottom line is that without God it is impossible to find truth among all the lies. For you to go to God you must FIRST believe He exists. And you just have to accept it that He does indeed know what He is doing and doesn't need you to second guess Him. His goal is to remake us in Christ's likeness. If you don't like Christ I guess it makes sense to go off and do something else, but I think Jesus was pretty cool myself. Like all those false religious leaders you talk about. He din't just whine about them He took em on. Man He got in their face. It cost Him but He knew the cost before He did it and gladly accepted it. You see, He showed us the way to do it.
I'll tell you the part I have trouble with is grace. I mean I would just love to give grace out to everyone. You know, like the 9/11 guys. By all means let em in, grace and more grace. They probably didn't know what they were doing anyway. But the ones who clung to a buck so tight it screamed while millions of children are dying in the world for lack of food and medicine, well I'd have a bigger problem dosing out grace for that. Aren't you all glad I'm not God? I wonder how many cases of wrongful grace have occured? I mean if you all went to the judgement and said minutemen had given you grace so let you in but God said no would you be able to sue me for giving you "false" grace? I'm really just trying to paraphrase a whole bunch of stuff that's in the Bible
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 02:07 pm
That was wonderful, Extra Medium. My ego wishes it had written it.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 02:30 pm
VMinuteman

Jesus, who and what was Jesus? Do you know? Does anyone? Absolutly not. The stories about him are made of the same whole cloth as the Bible and have grown and grown since his death. It would seem for many he has replaced God. I believe or at least I hope there is a greater power in the universe. However, to replace it with the man called Jesus. Never.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 03:33 pm
VMinuteman wrote:
As if to say that you sought Him, He didn't show up, and its all His fault. If I condemn you as being "God deaf" by choice and going through your own act to make yourself feel righteous then I'm sure I'll be cast with the "evil" religious ones you all have constructed in your minds.
. . .
The bottom line is that without God it is impossible to find truth among all the lies. For you to go to God you must FIRST believe He exists. And you just have to accept it that He does indeed know what He is doing and doesn't need you to second guess Him. His goal is to remake us in Christ's likeness. If you don't like Christ I guess it makes sense to go off and do something else, but I think Jesus was pretty cool myself.


VMinuteman,
I do believe there is something that we could probably both mutually agree that could be represented by the word God. So that is not a problem. I have no reason to second guess God. Thats not it. I believe God exists. Please, give me some credit before you jump to conclusions: I do not believe anyone is evil for being religious or believing in the Bible. I am not taking the time to write this to "feel righteous." Actually, this seems to be more of a humbling experience. And "not liking Jesus" has nothing to do with it. I think Jesus was one of the wisest beings that has been on earth. And don't worry, I'm not here to point fingers, attack you, etc. I am just on a quest for the truth. Seek and ye shall find, right?

You say "one must believe in God first." However, it appears you aren't really telling me to believe in God. There are 1000 different Gods out there (Islam, Hindu, American Indian, Greek, Roman, etc.) one can believe in. Instead, you are telling me that I need to believe in your specific God that is described in the Bible. Am I correct in this?

Also, lets look at this just a moment. Why would God ask us to "Just believe in me first" without seeing him/her? You say I am constructing things in my mind. Well, if we simply "believe in something first," isn't that simply a mind construction? And I wonder what kind of God would ask us to "Just believe in me first." What kind of strange test is that? Why send your son down, get crucified, get a bunch of various writers to write somewhat conflicting accounts, then expect folks 2000 years into the future to just believe it all, or burn? That seems like a very bizarre test. Although I do not rule out the possibility that it is true.

So, you are saying "For you to go to God you must FIRST believe He exists." Okay. Lets say I accept that.

Why should I believe in YOUR God first, and not the God of Islam, Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc.?
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 04:00 pm
extra medium

Because as many people of religion do, they believe that their religion is way the way to salvation and all others are the way to hell. I said many because some actually practice what they preach. Tolerance and brotherhood.
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extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 04:05 pm
au,
Point taken. Tolerance and brotherhood, indeed.
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VMinuteman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 05:42 pm
We seem to have quite a few "teachers" of what they DON't know. To be able to teach something you need to have experienced it. Anything else is just your vain imaginations creating fantasy that you call reason. If there is no God, or He doesn't reveal His way in a clearly identifiable way then your testimony that you know something is absurd. You can't know anything at all about something that doesn't exist, can you?
Many of these people here are spouting about what they don't know, never experienced, and, for many of them, don't care to because they prefer being lost, being separated from God. They prefer it whether HE exists or not.

But He has provided a way. He has provided witnesses, and He has provided "proof" in the form of the Holy Spirit which He left here for us to acquire.

So what a "seeker" is left with is some choices to make about witnesses (which is really what alot of you are saying). A personing giving testimony can be a liar and the person didn't witness anything; they could be crazy or suffering from delusions (they could very well believe it but it simply didn't occur); or it could be an accurate witness and occurred just as they said. These three possibilities will apply equally well to the true witnesses as well as the false ones. And it applies to those who say they sought God but nothing happened. So everyone, believer and none believer alike, are in the same boat and have to stand the same scrutiny when it comes to giving any testimony about God.

So when some asks "Instead, you are telling me that I need to believe in your specific God that is described in the Bible. Am I correct in this? " I'd have to say of course! That's the only true God that I know. How do I know Him. From my experience. And were back to square one.

Someone says:
Why would God ask us to "Just believe in me first" without seeing him/her? I would like to ask what are your credentials for knowing the best way to save a planet from its sin? You have a better plan? If you were on the job I'd say take it up with the boss or put it in the suggestion box.

Someone says:
Well, if we simply "believe in something first," isn't that simply a mind construction? Well if it exists it is leading to understanding and, if in the case of a person, relationship. If it doesn't exist then it is as you say. During some of this time it may even operate similar to a theory. Is the theory of relativity just a construct of your mind? Since you can't prove theories (that's what makes them theories) they come very close to the same dilemna as these arguments are presenting.

Then they say :

"So, you are saying "For you to go to God you must FIRST believe He exists." Okay. Lets say I accept that. "

Why would you do that? Why would you want to "imagine" that you believe? I'm not even sure that such a thing is possible? Blieving requires an action with it to be considered to be true believing. You often hear this called "repentance". Changing your actions, the things you do, don't do, etc are all the effects of believing. For example, a report comes over the TV that a tornado is bearing down. If you just stay there and try to tell me you believe I'd have my doubts. If you get up and go into a shelter I wouldn't even need to ask you if you believe.

Tolerance and brotherhood? That sounds like somekind of religous belief. Where did you all come up with such a notion? If there isn't a God or He hasn't ever revealed His ways then those notions are simply someone's imaginations. How can you use someone's imaginations to judge another's religion? Did you get this idea from one of those Roman God's you mention.

Someone says:
So, you are saying "For you to go to God you must FIRST believe He exists." Okay. Lets say I accept that. "
No, actually the Bible says that about God. I merely get to plagarize it (with the author's permission).

They ask:
"Why should I believe in YOUR God first, and not the God of Islam, Ancient Egypt, Greece, Rome, etc.?"

Since I'm assuming you believe (which is a prerequisite) and don't really know that you believe, I believe God will reward those that truly seek Him. That's been my experience.
0 Replies
 
extra medium
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 06:01 pm
VMinuteman,
Several good points.

So it appears to come down to: either one chooses to believe, or not.
Unless I am missing part of your meaning?

How did you first make the choice to choose to believe? (Again, I emphasize I am not trying to attack or undermine you. I am truly trying to understand how this faith, this belief, this certainty, works.)
0 Replies
 
VMinuteman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 07:31 pm
Thank you, extra medium. That was a long reply by me and I appreciate that you found it interesting enough to dig into.

To your question "either one chooses to believe, or not" I'd say yes, that is the way I see it.

The way I came to believe was this way. It was about twenty years ago as a teenager. I was seventeen at the time. I had been brought up Catholic but had pretty much left it by then. I don't remember any particular cause or event that caused me to pick up a new testament but one day I picked it up and started reading it. I don't even remember how long I read it for; it could have been a couple hours or a few days, I really don't remember. But sometime during that time an event did occur that I will never forget. While I was reading I suddenly heard this question presented to me. It asked "Well, do you believe in me or not". Immediately, in my heart, I got this very strong realization that I was at a point of decision, a crossroad in my life. I hadn't set out to bring this decision upon myself but there it was. I remember I broke into a sweat. I think that was in response to an understanding of the significance of the decision. Finally I came to the decision and said yes, I do believe.

I think it is important to understand what this means in light of what we just spoke about. We haven't spoke about this but the testimony of the Bible is that God is seeking us. He wants us to believe and does everything He can to help us to believe. One would think that a voice speaking to you would make you believe. My reaction was to sit their and repeat over and over to myself "do I believe in him or not?". It didn't knock me over, didn't blind me, or anything else except get me to the point of decision. I realized this other point years later- why didn't I ask who said that? I mean the voice was so clear that I didn't have any second thoughts that I had been spoken too. And I had no doubt about who it was either. In other words God made it crystal clear to me.

What was the result of this decision? Major changes in the way I lived. My friends started calling me "the straight dude". I continued reading the bible and my life continued to change. In some ways the changes are hard to describe. They're inside, in that empty spot inside that is or was searching for God. I really believe that empty spot is in every human being. That's why human beings create all these gods to try to fill that spot. Without the true God in there the emptiness does not get filled.

So did I become this holy, perfect being? Heck no! And I'm still not. I made messes of things, fought the lusts of the flesh and other things. These are things that non-believers don't have to worry about (they're goiing to hell for their disbelief, not their disobedience to God's laws). But through it all, God (notice I said God) will build your faith. The bible refers to the whole thing as a race or a fight or a journey. I have to laugh at those who say people use religion as a crutch. That's like picking up a toothache for a crutch. There is a tremendous amount of joy and peace that come, but there is trouble also so this crutch thing is a bunch of bull. the bible warns us to count the cost.
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Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 08:43 pm
extra medium wrote:
VMinuteman,
Several good points.

So it appears to come down to: either one chooses to believe, or not.
Unless I am missing part of your meaning?

How did you first make the choice to choose to believe? (Again, I emphasize I am not trying to attack or undermine you. I am truly trying to understand how this faith, this belief, this certainty, works.)


Extra...
It seems to me that you have chosen to believe, based on your responses.
What you appear to be asking (in addition to everything else Smile ) is what you should believe in...

I would suggest a paraphrase of VMinuteman's response - Choose something and check it out.

Seriously.

It has been my personal experience that it is all the same G-d.

And I have had a lot of experience.
Not to go into detail but I have intensely believed in / studied / worshipped / meditated upon / become involved with....
a lot of different religions and philosophies.
I do what I do now precisely because I kept on choosing a direction to go in and a philosophy to pursue. And through it all I beseeched G-d to help me.
And He did.
And I still work on it daily.
Try it. You'll like it.
Very Happy
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ossobuco
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 10:09 pm
Lecturing is not useful on this forum, though understandable as a way to start. One must engage in conversation.
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VMinuteman
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 10:32 pm
Moishe3rd,
Excuse me, but your "paraphrase" is totally inaccurate to what I meant. Let me clarify"Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and no one gets to the father except by him". Those are Jesus' own words, not mine.

So obviously your words are contrary to Christ's teachings. You may have read where I offer what I see as the three potential responses to someones testimony. Since I freely offer those options to those that I share my testimony with I think it fair that I use them also when someone offers a testimony to me. In your case, when you state something completely contrary to Christ's teaching I automatically place your testimony in the "false" heap. I'm not judging the cause of your false teaching, I'm just saying that when it comes to believing Jesus or believing you...well. .. let's say Jesus has a bit more credentials.

I explained this process which in theolgical terms is called "discernment" as a way to show what often ends up being accused of being closeminded. As a defense to the charge, please understand wht the word "Lord" means. It means the one in charge. Jesus expressed it this way "Why do you call me Lord and don't do what I say". Accepting Jesus as Lord means doing what He says and following His teachings. He really doesn't give any room for adding other teachers or gods into the mix.
0 Replies
 
Moishe3rd
 
  1  
Reply Tue 17 Aug, 2004 10:56 pm
VMinuteman wrote:
Moishe3rd,
Excuse me, but your "paraphrase" is totally inaccurate to what I meant. Let me clarify"Jesus is the way, the truth and the light and no one gets to the father except by him". Those are Jesus' own words, not mine.

So obviously your words are contrary to Christ's teachings. You may have read where I offer what I see as the three potential responses to someones testimony. Since I freely offer those options to those that I share my testimony with I think it fair that I use them also when someone offers a testimony to me. In your case, when you state something completely contrary to Christ's teaching I automatically place your testimony in the "false" heap. I'm not judging the cause of your false teaching, I'm just saying that when it comes to believing Jesus or believing you...well. .. let's say Jesus has a bit more credentials.

I explained this process which in theolgical terms is called "discernment" as a way to show what often ends up being accused of being closeminded. As a defense to the charge, please understand wht the word "Lord" means. It means the one in charge. Jesus expressed it this way "Why do you call me Lord and don't do what I say". Accepting Jesus as Lord means doing what He says and following His teachings. He really doesn't give any room for adding other teachers or gods into the mix.

Okay.
Then make it my take on your direction.
Theologically, I disagree with your particular religious diety.
Philosophically, I enjoy your explanation of your search and your understanding of your religious beliefs.

I have verified, for myself, spiritually and experientially, the truth of my explorations into G-d and religion.

I have also found that the religion I practice, Torah observant Judaism, to be the only truly accurate representation of G-d's intentions and wishes for mankind, both historically and spiritually.

However, this is what I have found.

I have also found that truly knowledgeable and observant Christian, Moslem, Hindu, Buddhist, Native American, Taoist, and other religious philosophies, agree with my perception of my religion.

This verifies, for me, my certainty that the best way to find out what one's religion is, is to begin with the religion of one's parents or forefathers.
Experiment.
Live it.
Go whole hog and pay the postage.....
The question to ask is:
Can it hurt?
Might it help?
0 Replies
 
Camulus
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 02:16 am
Sorry about this...
... But I'm going to have to advocate going with no religion at all.

Please, allow me to say a few things before getting to the point. This is a fairly tame forum. There are few, if any, bible-thumping evangelists here.

For any such crusaders who are reading this post, I must first appologize. Many of my friends are religious. My community is often sincere in its worship and devout in its beliefs.

That said, I am sorry to say that I treat believers in God as I would the victims of a terrible disease. This disease befalls even those who are prepared for it and guard against it, and is so often detrimental and debilitating.

There is not, nor can there ever be, any proof that a supreme being exists. I do not challenge all present to supply this proof. That is simply impossible. I do, however, ask for the voices of any who think there may be a chance, beyond reason and beyond hope, that a diety of some sort exists.

I do not hate religion. I will never understand it well enough to hate it. But I do pity those who are caught within its grasp, those who believe in what cannot be proven and who try to explain what can never be fathomed.

Religion is not, in fact, the opiate of the masses. It is a living, breathing creature, neither good nor evil, but nonetheless able to grow, hunt, age, and inevitably die. Such is the fate of all living things.

In fact, the total lack of religion is the system of belief that most carefully guards its lost lambs and repays the faith of its devotees.
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au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 03:53 pm
Faith-Based Living On January 20, 2001, President George W. Bush signed an executive order establishing the United States Department of Faith (USDOF). The USDOF's mission is to infuse traditional Christian values into American politics and thereby keep in check "compassion," which, when left unmonitored, destabilizes the delicate balance envisioned by Mr. Bush's call for "compassionate conservatism." The USDOF has been entrusted with overseeing disbursement of millions of taxpayer dollars to religious charities. In determining which organizations shall receive this Treasury money, the USDOF does not discriminate against any particular religion, making funds available to both Baptist churches and other churches or organizations that recognize Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior.

The USDOF is headed by Mr. Bush's and God's favorite church, Landover Baptist Church, the largest, most powerful assembly of worthwhile people ever to exist. An elite team of Bible-believing pastors and tenured professors of Creation Science at Landover Baptist University for the Saved have formed a True Christian┬« think-tank that, working with a Republican-majority Supreme Court, has guaranteed that it will – by any means necessary – bring every citizen of the United States of America back under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

The USDOF's approach to this mission seamlessly dovetails with other initiatives in this Republican administration by providing assistance based not on need, but, quite the reverse, on preexisting wealth. The richer the charity, the more federal dollars they can expect to receive. As such, the USDOF will be using the taxpayers' tithes to the IRS to promote a national program of Trickle Down Salvation, whereby the blood of the Lord Jesus is washed over the wealthiest 10 percent of the country, eventually making its way down to even the lowest, most worthless trash.
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JLNobody
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 04:45 pm
au1929, I am just as astounded as you are. I am appalled by the thought that my tax money is going to help promote the legitimacy of christian churches in the eyes of recipients of their charity. Do you know if any faith-based funds will also go to non-christian religions, like the hindu, buddhist, muslim and liberal christian groups like unitarians and quakers?

Welcome Calumus, and thanks for your wise words.
0 Replies
 
au1929
 
  1  
Reply Wed 18 Aug, 2004 06:17 pm
JLNobody
That post was not meant to be taken seriously. It was just a spoof. on Bush intentions. However, Bush does indeed want to give money to faith based charities
0 Replies
 
 

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