Which Religion is the One True Religion?

maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels

Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God

Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy

What do these references to do advance your point?

Perhaps if you read the Bible (all of it; not just bits and pieces quoted in "101 Reasons That I Don't Believe the Bible" ) then you would know what they are talking about and be able to frame an intelligent question about them.

I suspect that you're regurgitating information provided to you in some ANTI religious document/meeting/sermon......which truly holds no credibility on it's own merit.

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real life wrote:

Perhaps if you read the Bible (all of it; not just bits and pieces quoted in "101 Reasons That I Don't Believe the Bible" ) then you would know what they are talking about and be able to frame an intelligent question about them.

Ok, I would still ask the same question. You posted "bits and pieces" quoted from the bible. Why, I fail to see how they show that embryos are precious.

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I suspect that you're regurgitating information provided to you in some ANTI religious document/meeting/sermon......which truly holds no credibility on it's own merit.

[/quote]

I suspect that you cannot back up your point, therefore you are regurgitating my posts to somehow prove my question invalid.

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RexRed wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Frank, That's part of the "secret" message from god that only believers can interpret correctly.

Yes, the Bible says that the life of the soul begins at the first breath...

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Comment:
The message is no secret... it only takes objectivity.

When you take your first breath you are alive... when you take your last breath you are dead... no big enigma in that.

Can you murder something that is not alive?

Can something be alive without the breath of life?

I'm not sure of your point here, Rex.

Are you arguing for our side...or for the Christian side?

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real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

My statement was regarding the frequency with which abortion is used as contraception. Based on the PP stats, I think we can see that a MINIMUM, HALF of unplanned pregnancies are ended by killing the child.

No those stats do not show that at all. In fact, the stats do not show anything about killing any children. They talk about abortions.

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I stated "most" which would probably imply more than half. If anything the PP stats would be underestimated, not overestimated due to PP's vested $$ interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

As far as I know...Planned Parenthood does not have a vested dollar interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

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And they understand that even folks like Timber, who wouldn't outlaw abortion, nevertheless don't want to pay for someone to use abortion as contraception.

Except in the imagination of folks like you...nobody wants to use abortion as contraception. But apparently you are too far into this fantasy to ever break out.

Frank Apisa wrote:
Quote:
Women can expect to have 1.42 unintended pregnancies by the time they are 45, and 43% of women will have an abortion.
9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method. 53% of women who have unintended pregnancies were using a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant, although usually not correctly every time.

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Frank when 53% of the unwanted pregnancies are connected with failed contraception, do you think none of those opt for abortion?

I'm not sure of your point here.

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To use the 90% who use contraception as a way to try to say that none of those who use contraception opt for abortion is not to understand the figures correctly.

I'm not sure of your point here either.

These women....by and large....are using contraception methods. Somehow or other there is a failure....and an unwanted pregnancy ensues. Abortion is used to end that unwanted pregnancy. To suggest that this means they are using abortion as birth control....is a stretch...but if it makes you happy to suggest that is the case....go for it.

My main point is...if a woman has an unwanted pregnancy...she should be allowed to end that pregnancy safely and legally. If that bothers your god...too goddam bad. You god has nothing to say about the laws we decide to use to structure our society.

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You state it is not killing without giving the slightest pretext to addressing the medical state of the child, (if he has a heartbeat, if he has brainwaves, etc.) we are just supposed to take your say so that nobody is dying.

Correct. NOBODY IS DYING. A fetus or an embryo is being aborted.

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The issue of whether the baby is alive is a medical one, but you don't want to address that.

I have addressed that. There is no baby to be alive. It is a fetus or an embryo.

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:

Perhaps if you read the Bible (all of it; not just bits and pieces quoted in "101 Reasons That I Don't Believe the Bible" ) then you would know what they are talking about and be able to frame an intelligent question about them.

Ok, I would still ask the same question. You posted "bits and pieces" quoted from the bible. Why, I fail to see how they show that embryos are precious.

The difference is that I have read the document in question and you have not.

I understand the context from which I have quoted and you do not.

Perhaps before you try to trash the Bible you should know something about it other than secondhand. Try starting with reading it.

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real life wrote:

maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

Perhaps if you read the Bible (all of it; not just bits and pieces quoted in "101 Reasons That I Don't Believe the Bible" ) then you would know what they are talking about and be able to frame an intelligent question about them.

Ok, I would still ask the same question. You posted "bits and pieces" quoted from the bible. Why, I fail to see how they show that embryos are precious.

The difference is that I have read the document in question and you have not.

I understand the context from which I have quoted and you do not.

Perhaps before you try to trash the Bible you should know something about it other than secondhand. Try starting with reading it.

I've read the bible; I was a christian for 18 years. I have no desire to re-read it so that I can understand some innane point in your post. I know what it says. I've read it.

Your snippits don't support your claim. I'm asking for clarification. Give it and we can move on, or don't and let your point fall to the depths of hell.

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real life wrote:

Maybe it's because infant mortality was very high.

That case is true, also note that the Israelites were a minority at the time of the making of those rules, so anything that helped pregnancy and ensured child birth was good.

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But actually there are places where unborn children are addressed, had you looked for them, making your argument from silence all the more ridiculous.

Ex 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

My copy states the following:

"If men who are fighting hit a pregnant woman and she gives birth prematurely but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows."

-- Exodus 21:22, NIV.

It states in the next passage that if there is serious injury, the punishment is life for life, eye for eye, tooth for tooth etc.

The passage you quoted was more about the pregnant woman than the fetus, which is understandable, because back then, they knew nothing about the fetus. Why, they even thought the male sperm was sacred and the seed of life, whereas the woman did nothing but incubate this seed without contributing anything.

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Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels

What? That has nothing to do with the preciousness of the fetus. All the Lord is saying, in response to Rebekah's question of what is happening, is that she has twins.

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Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God

This also has nothing to do with the sacredness of the fetus.

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Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

This has nothing to say about the sacredness of the fetus and whether it's right not to kill it. The Psalms are songs though, songs of devotion to the Lord and not arguments against abortion.

Look, all your quotes aren't very relevant to the argument. None of them say, outright, it is wrong to kill a fetus. Even the one in Exodus is more about crimes against the pregnant mother, than the child itself.

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real life wrote:

... The difference is that I have read the document in question and you have not.

I understand the context from which I have quoted and you do not.

Perhaps before you try to trash the Bible you should know something about it other than secondhand. Try starting with reading it.

I submit it has been pointed out previously that assuming one may or may not have read the bible is, in either case, an excersize in folly.

I submit as well, as evidenced by posted comments, that some in this discussion are far more familiar with the bible, its antecedents, development, history, various translations, and assorted traditions than your biblical commentary indicates to be the case in your instance. Some here have indeed studied the bible, in its entirety, its context, hermaneutically, philologically, literarily, theologically, philosophically, and studied it at length, in depth, objectively, rigorously and in academically sound manner. Some appear actually to have thought about it, not merely accepted, with emotional satisfaction, what is said by and of one particular version of it by proponents and adherents of that one particular version.

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All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?

World 'ignores' Niger food crisis

The United Nations top aid official has accused the international community of neglecting the food crisis in Niger.
Some 150,000 children will die soon without aid, out of 2.5m who need food, said Jan Egeland.

"Niger is the example of a neglected emergency, where early warnings went unheeded," he told the BBC.

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hi ci

yes its very sad

all these people concerned with saving one's soul for the afterlife and ignoring the suffering in this one.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?

World 'ignores' Niger food crisis

The United Nations top aid official has accused the international community of neglecting the food crisis in Niger.
Some 150,000 children will die soon without aid, out of 2.5m who need food, said Jan Egeland.

"Niger is the example of a neglected emergency, where early warnings went unheeded," he told the BBC.

If I understand you correctly (and I may not because your post was rather vague) you may think that government should respond to a food crisis in Niger because it's our Christian duty. I thought you believed in separation of church and state. Can you clarify?

Why would you want the government to feed people because Jesus said so?

What other Christian duties do you believe the government ought to be performing?

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Get real. Your ability to obtuse reactions is not worth a response. Who mentioned anything about church and state? This is about living, starving children.

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Frank Apisa wrote:

As far as I know...Planned Parenthood does not have a vested dollar interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

Give it a rest, Frank. You are not that naive and neither is anyone else here.

Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm not sure of your point here.

Yes I know. That is why you need to rethink this, Frank.

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real life wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?

World 'ignores' Niger food crisis

The United Nations top aid official has accused the international community of neglecting the food crisis in Niger.
Some 150,000 children will die soon without aid, out of 2.5m who need food, said Jan Egeland.

"Niger is the example of a neglected emergency, where early warnings went unheeded," he told the BBC.

If I understand you correctly (and I may not because your post was rather vague) you may think that government should respond to a food crisis in Niger because it's our Christian duty. I thought you believed in separation of church and state. Can you clarify?

Why would you want the government to feed people because Jesus said so?

What other Christian duties do you believe the government ought to be performing?

No where in the post was anything stated about the government feeding starving children because it's a christian duty.

Where do you get this stuff? Are you truly as ignorant & misleading as you make yourself out to be?

Is that enough clarification for you?

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real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

As far as I know...Planned Parenthood does not have a vested dollar interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

Give it a rest, Frank. You are not that naive and neither is anyone else here.

Visit their site, www.plannedparenthood.com. There are many more sections about topics like adoption, birth control, sexual health, sexually transmitted diseases, parenting, health in general, etc.

To even suggest that they have a vested interest in abortions is absurd. Their vested interest is in proper planned parenthood. Their interest in is the quality of life for the parents and their children.

Your mind needs to grow up.

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real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

As far as I know...Planned Parenthood does not have a vested dollar interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable.

Give it a rest, Frank. You are not that naive and neither is anyone else here.

Substantiate your assertion, real life; what vested financial interest does Planned Parenthood (an organization of which I am not particularly fond, BTW) have in "keepng abortions legal and profitable?" Actually, verifiably, have - I'm not interested in anecdotes and claims here; produce SEC and IRS filings.

real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

I'm not sure of your point here.

Yes I know. That is why you need to rethink this, Frank.

I have no reason to doubt Frank has thought and rethought the issue quite dilligently. Were there the slightest reason to harbor any suspicion whatsoever you've given the issue any rational thought whatsoever, I would suggest you rethink things. Not caring to issue a pointless challenge, I will not offer any such suggestion.

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?

World 'ignores' Niger food crisis

The United Nations top aid official has accused the international community of neglecting the food crisis in Niger.
Some 150,000 children will die soon without aid, out of 2.5m who need food, said Jan Egeland.

"Niger is the example of a neglected emergency, where early warnings went unheeded," he told the BBC.

If I understand you correctly (and I may not because your post was rather vague) you may think that government should respond to a food crisis in Niger because it's our Christian duty. I thought you believed in separation of church and state. Can you clarify?

Why would you want the government to feed people because Jesus said so?

What other Christian duties do you believe the government ought to be performing?

No where in the post was anything stated about the government feeding starving children because it's a christian duty.

Where do you get this stuff? Are you truly as ignorant & misleading as you make yourself out to be?

Is that enough clarification for you?

Who do you think the U.N. is? And who do you think is the "international community" is that the U.N. is trashing for inaction?

The countries of the world are right to be leery of funneling money thru the U.N. for ANY purpose, given it's track record. ( Can you say "Oil for Food" sure you can )

Unfortunately, giving to these bandits $1 may be in some cases the only way to see a nickel get to Niger.

Imposter clearly implied that the job wasn't getting done because Christians weren't fulfilling the commands of Christ.

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"Imposter clearly implied that the job wasn't getting done because Christians weren't fulfilling the commands of Christ."

Show us where I said this? You're full of BS.
You have the gall to impose your will any way you can to deny women the right to control their own bodies, because you think abortion kills a potential baby, but you do absolutely nothing to help babies already born because you make excuses by claiming donations do not reach them. You are a hypocrite of the worst kind. You can't see the logic in it, because your mind is so screwed up.

If you make a small attempt to help these children, it's not difficult to find charitable organizations that can get most donations to the needy in Niger. A good start is the International Red Cross.

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cicerone imposter wrote:

real life wrote:
"Imposter clearly implied that the job wasn't getting done because Christians weren't fulfilling the commands of Christ."

Show us where I said this? You're full of BS.

cicerone imposter wrote:

All these religionists that doesn't believe in abortion because they believe it kills a potential life are all hypocrites. If life, as they claim, is so precious, why aren't they helping with the starving, barely living children in Africa?

Perhaps you should read your posts as you type them.

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Here's a link to UNICEF where you can make donations for Niger.

http://www.unicef.org/infobycountry/niger_27639.html

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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

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