Which Religion is the One True Religion?

Frank Apisa wrote:

real life wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

which is exactly how it is used most of the time

I would like to see some proof of this statement being true. Otherwise, don't post such garbage.

Do you think most women have abortions because they want to have a baby, or because they do not?

That is not an answer to the challenge Maporsche presented.

If you have some proof of your statement that abortion is used most of the time as a contraception devise...present it. Don't pretend that it is obvious on its face....because it isn't.

One Planned Parenthood affiliate states that HALF of all "unintended pregnancies" end in abortion.

That's a huge number. Would you take THEIR word for it? Do you think they would have a tendency to over- or underestimate this number?

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duplicate....sorry

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real life wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
real life wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

which is exactly how it is used most of the time

I would like to see some proof of this statement being true. Otherwise, don't post such garbage.

Do you think most women have abortions because they want to have a baby, or because they do not?

That is not an answer to the challenge Maporsche presented.

If you have some proof of your statement that abortion is used most of the time as a contraception devise...present it. Don't pretend that it is obvious on its face....because it isn't.

One Planned Parenthood affiliate states that HALF of all "unintended pregnancies" end in abortion.

That's a huge number. Would you take THEIR word for it? Do you think they would have a tendency to over- or underestimate this number?

"One Planned Parenthood AFFILIATE".......care to state who? Care to provide a link where they posted this information? Care to supply any substantial proof of what you are stating?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but generally it's helpful to post links to sites or articles where this information can be called into question and verified.....otherwise it's it just your biased opinion, which doesn't hold much water in your argument.

I suspect that you're regurgitating information provided to you in some religious document/meeting/sermon......which truly holds no credibility on it's own merit.

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maporsche wrote:

real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:
real life wrote:
maporsche wrote:
real life wrote:

which is exactly how it is used most of the time

I would like to see some proof of this statement being true. Otherwise, don't post such garbage.

Do you think most women have abortions because they want to have a baby, or because they do not?

That is not an answer to the challenge Maporsche presented.

If you have some proof of your statement that abortion is used most of the time as a contraception devise...present it. Don't pretend that it is obvious on its face....because it isn't.

One Planned Parenthood affiliate states that HALF of all "unintended pregnancies" end in abortion.

That's a huge number. Would you take THEIR word for it? Do you think they would have a tendency to over- or underestimate this number?

"One Planned Parenthood AFFILIATE".......care to state who? Care to provide a link where they posted this information? Care to supply any substantial proof of what you are stating?

I'm not saying you're wrong, but generally it's helpful to post links to sites or articles where this information can be called into question and verified.....otherwise it's it just your biased opinion, which doesn't hold much water in your argument.

I suspect that you're regurgitating information provided to you in some religious document/meeting/sermon......which truly holds no credibility on it's own merit.

Your suspicions are unfounded.

I asked if you would take their word for it before I posted the link.

No sense posting it if you are going to blow them off as "right wing fanatics".

Da link:

http://www.miplannedparenthood.org/topics/facts-statistics.htm

which, by the way you could have easily found. Spare me the "burden of proof" speech, BTW. If you make a statement that I doubt, I check it out. I would expect anyone here to look for themselves but maybe I expect too much.

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Life...

...you wrote:

Quote:

Where in the process does it lose it's morality if employed as birth control, (which is exactly how it is used most of the time) and it remains somehow moral if used otherwise ?

You were challenged on that.

Now you are bringing Planned Parenthood statistics into play....and using them so selectively, I wonder how you can ever reconcile your nonsense with your god....whom you say does not like such stuff.

Here is the part that you quoted:

Quote:

Even if that were the end of that section (which it isn't)....and even if those statistics bear out your contention that abortion is mostly used as birth control (which it doesn't)...the fact remains that the statistic contends that half the pregnancies among American women are unintended....and half of that half are ended by abortion.

You still do not have a majority...as your statement suggested.

Under any circumstances...the section goes on to say:

Quote:

Women can expect to have 1.42 unintended pregnancies by the time they are 45, and 43% of women will have an abortion.
9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method. 53% of women who have unintended pregnancies were using a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant, although usually not correctly every time.

90% ARE using contraceptive methods that are not abortion. Abortion is the method of last resort to end an unwanted pregnancy. To suggest that women are so stupid they would use abortion as a method of birth control is simply too idiotic to take seriously.

A woman faced with an unintended and unwanted pregnancy has a right to terminate the pregnancy. I don't give a goddam that your idiotic, barbaric, murderous god supposedly is offended by that.

It is not murder. It truly is not killing.

It is an abortion....the termination of a pregnancy....something that happens naturally very, very frequently.

One of the reasons why those of us who are not part of the superstition called religion have to fight you with such vigor....is because you want to impose your silly views on the rest of us.

Timber...I appreciate your position in this....but you are dead wrong if you are arguing that abortion ought to be made illegal. A woman has every right to decide if she should continue an unwanted pregnancy...or to terminate it.

No moral or natural implications arise from the decision. It is her's alone to make!

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Frank, You are absolutely correct; only the host has the right to terminate or continue a pregnancy. That others wish to impose their stupid religious beliefs on everybody else is rather "stupidly religious."

It's somewhat analogous to Bush's "every life is precious" rhetoric. He uses his office to use our government to save one brain damaged woman based on his religious belief, but does absolutely nothing for all the others in need of medical care. He tried to use it to his political advantage, but it backfired on him. If "every life is precious," why isn't he providing health care to all our children where it may really make a difference?

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No Frank, I don't advocate making abortion illegal - for any purpose. I don't happen to think it is morally or ethically acceptable as ex-post-facto birth control, but if someone decides it suits their cionvenience in such an instance, then that's their decision. I don't happen to think folks should support the candidates or initiatives of The Demmocratic Party, either, but its a matter of personal choice. There's nothing to prevent, there should be nothing that would prevent, responsible individuals from making such choices, beyond reason and common sense .

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timberlandko wrote:

No Frank, I don't advocate making abortion illegal - for any purpose. I don't happen to think it is morally or ethically acceptable as ex-post-facto birth control, but if someone decides it suits their cionvenience in such an instance, then that's their decision. I don't happen to think folks should support the candidates or initiatives of The Demmocratic Party, either, but its a matter of personal choice. There's nothing to prevent, there should be nothing that would prevent, responsible individuals from making such choices, beyond reason and common sense .

We are shoulder to shoulder on most of this. The minor parts wherein there is some pocket of difference is insignificant, in my opinion....and I'll let you guess which areas these are.

Twisted Evil

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cicerone imposter wrote:

Frank, That's part of the "secret" message from god that only believers can interpret correctly.

Yes, the Bible says that the life of the soul begins at the first breath...

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Comment:
The message is no secret... it only takes objectivity.

When you take your first breath you are alive... when you take your last breath you are dead... no big enigma in that.

Can you murder something that is not alive?

Can something be alive without the breath of life?

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Frank Apisa wrote:

Life...

...you wrote:

Quote:
Where in the process does it lose it's morality if employed as birth control, (which is exactly how it is used most of the time) and it remains somehow moral if used otherwise ?

You were challenged on that.

Now you are bringing Planned Parenthood statistics into play....and using them so selectively, I wonder how you can ever reconcile your nonsense with your god....whom you say does not like such stuff.

Uh, Frank...... I cited the PP stats BECAUSE I was challenged on that.

My statement was regarding the frequency with which abortion is used as contraception. Based on the PP stats, I think we can see that a MINIMUM, HALF of unplanned pregnancies are ended by killing the child.

I stated "most" which would probably imply more than half. If anything the PP stats would be underestimated, not overestimated due to PP's vested $$ interest in keeping abortions legal and profitable. And they understand that even folks like Timber, who wouldn't outlaw abortion, nevertheless don't want to pay for someone to use abortion as contraception.

I didn't use the stats selectively. They point in exactly the direction I said they would. If it turns out to be 49% that is still a huge number and I'll take back "most" and opt for "many" , but I think it's a fairly reasonable position to hold that the PP stats may have understated the case somewhat.

Frank Apisa wrote:

Quote:
Women can expect to have 1.42 unintended pregnancies by the time they are 45, and 43% of women will have an abortion.
9 in 10 women at risk of unintended pregnancy are using a contraceptive method. 53% of women who have unintended pregnancies were using a contraceptive method during the month they became pregnant, although usually not correctly every time.

90% ARE using contraceptive methods that are not abortion. Abortion is the method of last resort to end an unwanted pregnancy. To suggest that women are so stupid they would use abortion as a method of birth control is simply too idiotic to take seriously.

A woman faced with an unintended and unwanted pregnancy has a right to terminate the pregnancy. I don't give a goddam that your idiotic, barbaric, murderous god supposedly is offended by that.

It is not murder. It truly is not killing.

Frank when 53% of the unwanted pregnancies are connected with failed contraception, do you think none of those opt for abortion?

To use the 90% who use contraception as a way to try to say that none of those who use contraception opt for abortion is not to understand the figures correctly.

You state it is not killing without giving the slightest pretext to addressing the medical state of the child, (if he has a heartbeat, if he has brainwaves, etc.) we are just supposed to take your say so that nobody is dying.

The issue of whether the baby is alive is a medical one, but you don't want to address that.

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RexRed wrote:

cicerone imposter wrote:
Frank, That's part of the "secret" message from god that only believers can interpret correctly.

Yes, the Bible says that the life of the soul begins at the first breath...

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Comment:
The message is no secret... it only takes objectivity.

When you take your first breath you are alive... when you take your last breath you are dead... no big enigma in that.

Can you murder something that is not alive?

Can something be alive without the breath of life?

In the following two places in the bible, no value is placed on humans under 1 month of age

Leviticus 27:6 "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver."
[No value is placed upon babies (or fetuses) less than one month old.]

Numbers 3:15-16 "Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD."
[Babies (or fetuses) less than one month old are not counted as persons by God.]

So, I guess it's another case of picking what parts of the bible to believe.

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The one true religion?The one with the most guns.Might makes right when it comes to god

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God used stones. The US has nukes.

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Are you saying launch a nuke at god.I'm nuts and even I think this is a bad idea.

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No. You can't have a war with a fictional character in an ancient comic book. But, the god of today is determined by the one that holds the most guns. That'd be the US.

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Your scarey Shocked

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cicerone imposter wrote:

No. You can't have a war with a fictional character in an ancient comic book. But, the god of today is determined by the one that holds the most guns. That'd be the US.

Interesting that the so-called battle of Armageddon is not a war between nations, but a war between the nations and God.

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So much for separation of church and state.

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maporsche wrote:

RexRed wrote:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Frank, That's part of the "secret" message from god that only believers can interpret correctly.

Yes, the Bible says that the life of the soul begins at the first breath...

Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Comment:
The message is no secret... it only takes objectivity.

When you take your first breath you are alive... when you take your last breath you are dead... no big enigma in that.

Can you murder something that is not alive?

Can something be alive without the breath of life?

In the following two places in the bible, no value is placed on humans under 1 month of age

Leviticus 27:6 "And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver."
[No value is placed upon babies (or fetuses) less than one month old.]

Numbers 3:15-16 "Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD."
[Babies (or fetuses) less than one month old are not counted as persons by God.]

So, I guess it's another case of picking what parts of the bible to believe.

Sounds like an argument from silence. "Hmmmm the Bible says nothing about this, so it must mean......" (I wonder what we can infer about you from your silence on some issues. )

Maybe it's because they are priceless.

Maybe it's because infant mortality was very high.

But actually there are places where unborn children are addressed, had you looked for them, making your argument from silence all the more ridiculous.

Ex 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels

Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God

Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy

In the legal arena, some U.S. jurisdictions have law protecting an unborn child's right of inheritance.

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real life wrote:

Sounds like an argument from silence. "Hmmmm the Bible says nothing about this, so it must mean......" (I wonder what we can infer about you from your silence on some issues. )

My silence about what other issues?

Quote:

But actually there are places where unborn children are addressed, had you looked for them, making your argument from silence all the more ridiculous.

Ex 21:22 If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine.

This says nothing about the mother making the choice to terminate her pregnency.

What if the husband chooses not to punish?

Quote:

Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels

Hos 12:3 He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God

Ps 139:13 For thou hast possessed my reins: thou hast covered me in my mother's womb.

Luke 1:44 For, lo, as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy

What do these references to do advance your point?

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Which Religion is the One True Religion?

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