33
   

Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 03:12 pm
Here is what Jefferson Davis, president of the confederacy, had to say on this issue:


It was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts...Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible...I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation...Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized, sanctioned everywhere."
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 03:17 pm
Another thing you folks might enjoy reading are the Declarations of Independence (from the Union) of the various southern states.

Interesting the take they have on slavery....and whether or not slaves deserved to be considered as human as whites.

And you might find a current booklet interesting also. Here is a site talking about that booklet.

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/story/1913619p-8258411c.html
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 03:18 pm
And as Neo pointed out....this is just the first of these topics. There are dozens...perhaps hundreds...more.

We are gonna have a ball here.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 06:55 pm
cicerone imposter wrote:
neologist, I never claimed to be knowledgeable about the bible. It's been somewhat of a common knowledge that people who do know about the bible assumed that Hebrew slaves built the pyramids. Here's one excerpt I found on a search engine, ".. that slaves under the Egyptians built the pyramids ... Bible says the Hebrews were slaves to the Egyptians, it almost makes sense! Actually if you ever look into Ancient Hebrew ..." This assumption has since been negated by Egyptologists that have studied the workers residence close to the pyramids.
I can't fault you for what others have claimed about the bible or that you believed their claims. I have had the same experience.

The Hebrews' main task was the making of bricks. Egyptians provided the straw. Then Pharaoh got a wild hair in his nether region and decided the Jews should not only gather their own straw, but would be required to produce the same quota of bricks.

Well, there's more to the story; but I'd hate to bore anyone with an overly long post.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Tue 21 Jun, 2005 06:58 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
Here is what Jefferson Davis, president of the confederacy, had to say on this issue:


It was established by decree of Almighty God...it is sanctioned in the Bible, in both Testaments, from Genesis to Revelation...it has existed in all ages, has been found among the people of the highest civilization, and in nations of the highest proficiency in the arts...Let the gentleman go to Revelation to learn the decree of God - let him go to the Bible...I said that slavery was sanctioned in the Bible, authorized, regulated, and recognized from Genesis to Revelation...Slavery existed then in the earliest ages, and among the chosen people of God; and in Revelation we are told that it shall exist till the end of time shall come. You find it in the Old and New Testaments - in the prophecies, psalms, and the epistles of Paul; you find it recognized, sanctioned everywhere."
Frank; I do believe Jeff misstated. Such an impartial guy. Who would have thought?
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:06 pm
Setanta wrote:
Neo, that would depend upon when and where you viewed slavery in the history of the United States. I'll try to be as brief as possible, while touching upon crucially important descriptions.

Slave originally arrived in what would become the United States when a Dutch ship was driven north of the Windward Islands by a storm. The captain knew that the Spanish had once had colonies along that coast, and in looking for a haven, as his slaves died at an alarming rate, he found Jamestown. There he managed to sell a few, but people were largely not interested, so he decided to cut his losses, and left the rest of the ill and injured there, taking a handful of healthy people south with him to sell in the Windward Islands.

The islands of the Carribean were soon dedicated to a monoculture in sugar. Because of the nature of the work, Europeans did not do well, and often did not survive in that climate. The ability to run sugar plantations with white indentured workers was limited, and the ability to find those willing to make the effort declining rapidly. The Dutch and the English therefore brought in west African negroes. Without anyone understanding the process, these people survived better than anyone else. The west African negro and the Koreans both have a propensity for sickle cell anemia. The quaternary stage of the life-cycle of the malarial plasmodium is a colonization of the red blood cells. Therefore, west African negroes has a built-in resistance to death from malaria, and were generally not as weakened by the disease as were whites who survived it. None of this was known in any scientific sense at the time, but it was understood that these slaves did better than any other laborers.

In Virginia, there was a monoculture in tobacco. Initially, slavery was not attractive as there were no actual plantations, and the tobacco cultivators were small holders working limited plots. A man and his sons could usually supply all the labor without the expense of feeding, clothing and housing slaves. Slavery was therefore very slow to take root in the colonial south. There was even less need of it in New England. The same was true in the Maryland colony. Delaware, originally a Swedish colony, was taken over by the Dutch. Dutch colonial patterns were radically different from English and French patterns. The Dutch tended to encourage immigration through the grant of large estates to individuals who would then privately recruit tenants. When a tobacco monoculture took root in Delaware, the Dutch, with an already large investment in the slave trade, quickly supplied their labor with slaves. Slavery was in place and growing in Delaware when the English took over New Amsterdam from the Dutch, from which the colonies of New York, New Jersey and Delaware were created.

The colonies of the Carolinas were not created until after the restoration of the monarchy in England in 1660. Charles Stuart was indebted to many people for the support for the restoration. First and foremost, he was indebted to George Monck, whose march south from Coldstream in Scotland with the Parliamentary Guard had lead to his restoration. To Monck and other of his closest associates, such as Prince Rupert of Bohemia and John Churchill (who would one day become the first Duke of Marlborough), he granted a charter for the Company of Gentlemen Adventurers Trading into Hudson's Bay. His next largest debt was to an English Admiral, Charles Penn, who had supported his father before that king was executed, and had latterly advanced Charles and James Stuart a loan of 16,000 pounds sterling at the time of the restoration. Penn had died, however, before Charles ascended the throne, so a large grant was made to his son, William Penn, who had become a member of the Society of Friends, dubbed the Quakers by Lord Justice Jeffreys. Penn could not outlaw slavery, but he could and did prohibit the trade in his colony, and his policy of religious toleration lead to the colony filling up with, in addition to Quakers, Scots-Irish Presbyterians and German charismatics, who became small-holding farmers with little use for slaves and no interest in slavery as an institution.

In Virginia, slavery had been slowly and fitfully growing. The tobacco monoculture quickly exhausted the soil, and it was necessary to acquire and clear more land to continue its production (a very lucrative business), so slaves were becoming more attractive as small-holders translated themselves into plantation owners. Charles repaid his debt to Lord Fairfax with a huge grant of lands in the territory already allocated to the Commonwealth of Virginia, and this was sold off in large tracts which made slavery attractive to plantation owners. The existing tobacco growers had to expand their holdings and their slave labor to compete. Small holders unable to compete or unwilling to use slavery moved in to marginal lands in Virginia or into what would become North Carolina.

Charles repaid the debt to the bulk of the remaining creditors with the grants which became North and South Carolina. Although the tobacco monoculture was introduced into North Carolina, the tradition of small holding was already established there, and much of the immigration was Scots-Irish Presbyterians and French Huguenots, who once again as in Pennsylvania, had little use for slaves and no interest in slavery. Large plantations were much less common there than they were becoming in Virginia and Maryland.

South Carolina became a unique society, however. There were two large monocultures which took off with a vengeance. These were the production of rice which was sold to slave owners in the Windward islands to feed their slaves, and the production of indigo. The owners of large tracts of land usually did not live on their property, but instead left the management of their land and slaves to overseers, while living in conspicuous luxury in Charles Town (modern Charleston).

When Oglethorpe established a penal colony in what would become Georgia, the equation of a lot of slaves clearing a lot of land in short order, to exploit it to exhaustion and then move on was well-established. Georgia filled up quickly with people eager to exploit that system.

By the time of the French and Indian War, many Virginians long established on the land were becoming disenchanted with the entire system of the continual exploitation of new land, but were heavily indebted to the vested interests in London who robbed them shamelessly. Washington returned to the estate he had inherited from his half-brother Lawrence, and quickly realized that slavery was useless in any other context than the relentless exploitation and exhaustion of new land. Although holding large tracts of western lands acquired when he was a surveyor before the war, he abandoned the tobacco monoculture, knuckled down to pay off the estates debts to London factors, and began to diversify his agronomy. Some Virginia and Maryland planters followed his lead; many others who were dedicated to the by then established system of the monoculture became alarmed at the prospect of Washington educating and manumitting his slaves (he had about 300 hundred from Lawrence's legacy, and another 300 from his marriage to Martha Dandridge Custis). Both colonies quickly passed laws outlawing the education of slaves, and holding that the children of slaves remained slaves even if the parents had been manumitted. The Washington estate finally ended by paying pensions to the slaves until after 1830, more than a generation after Washington's death.

In the inland hill country of the Carolinas and Georgia, the tobacco monoculture had been established, but was quickly running out of new land to exploit. After the Revolution, the western regions of these states as well as of Virginia and Maryland filled up with small holders, and slavery was not a significant institution in those regions. (This accounts for why the western counties of Virginia seceded from the state in 1861, and were admitted to the Union as the state of West Virginia in 1863; the eastern portion of Tennessee had been filled up with small holders from Virginia and North Carolina, and it, too, remained a Union stronghold during the American civil war.)

Looking around for a more profitable monoculture, the plantation owners in the hill country of the Carolinas and Georgia came up with cotton, but it was not initially very profitable because it was labor intensive. The invention of the cotton gin, however, made rapid, large production possible. With the successful conclusion of the Creek War in 1813, the territory which would become Alabama and Mississippi was opened to settlement, and aspiring and avaricious members of the middle class of the coastal states took the opportunity to acquire large tracts of land at low prices, and exploit the cotton monoculture exactly as had been done with the tobacco monoculture. The worst of the abuses of slavery took place in this environment. Unlike the old plantations of the coastal South, in which generations of plantation families had long lived closely with generations of slaves, the new cotton monoculture exploiters cared not one whit for the means by which slaves were acquired, nor how they were maintained. In far too many cases, they were literally worked to death. Cotton became "King," to feed the insatiable maws of European mills.

Nouveau arriviste families, such as that which produced Jefferson Davis, moved into Alabama and Mississippi to exploit the cotton monoculture, and seemingly overnight became wealthy, sent their sons to college, and adopted all the trappings of the dollar aristocracy which reigned supreme throughout the United States. From an embarrassing but useful "peculiar" institution, slavery became a symbol of middle class status, and families which might have as easily employed white domestics now bought slaves to be housemaids and stable boys.

The political equation was even more pernicious. Pinckney and Ruffin during the constitutional convention had quickly realized that their electorate was limited because of the greater proportion of non-franchised blacks in their population, and that they would therefore be easily overwhelmed in the House of Representatives. Therefore, the "Three-fifths" compromise was hammered out, by which each five slaves were considered to represent the equivalent of three members of the white population, giving Southern states far more representatives for the proportion of their white, voting population than in the north, although a larger population in absolute terms per representative. This gave the South inordinate political power. An informal compromise agreement was worked out to prevent Southern obstructionism in Congress whereby the admission of a "free" state could only pass the Congress in tandem with the admission of a "slave" state.

But by the time of the Mexican War--justifiably seen in the North as "Mr. Polk's War" to expand slave state territory--the equation no longer worked. West of the Mississippi, the only reliable monoculture north and west of Louisiana and Arkansas was grain growing, because of the more arid character of the country and climate. Grain monoculture not only did not need slavery, with the agronomic methods and technology of that era, it worked better with small holders. Even the accession of new slave states did not have the effect of creating a competetive political power for slaver owners. The power of the three-fifths compromise to support the political agendae of slave owners was rapidly waning.

This is why, when the idiotic split which Southerners created in the 1860 election in the Democratic party lead to the election of a minority president, Lincoln, Southerners reacted rashly, nearly in an hysterical manner. No plans were being made by the Republicans to attempt to abolish slavery. Savvy political observers could see that the political power of the South was eroding due to the nature of the populating of new territory, and the heavy influx of European immigrants, especially after the failed Socialist uprisings in 1848 in Europe.

Southern politicians could see this as well. They used the claim that the Republicans would end slavery as a propaganda tool, and an effective one because the Republicans has exploited the abolitionists to gain the electoral clout needed to make a decent showing in the 1860 elections. Had the South not split the Democratic ticket between Douglas and Breckenridge, the Democrats would have buried the Republicans. Even with the election of Lincoln, Republicans were a minority in Congress. But Southerners over-reacted, and James Chestnut lead the South Carolina delegation out of the Congress, while the state convention voted for secession. Even at this late and extreme juncture, the South might have succeeded in secession if they had not been overcome with a fit of hubris which would destroy them in less than five years. Lincoln needed a causus belli to call for the state militias, and Southerners presented it by seizing or attempting to seize federal property. At Charleston, this was accomplished by arresting federal customs agents and marshalls, and summoning Fort Sumter. The spineless hand-wringing of the lame duck Buchanan administration only encouraged such efforts. At Pensacola, an alert and active lieutenant of the Artillery moved quickly to destroy military supplies, spike gun tubes he could not throw in the bay or carry off, and occupy the harbor defenses. The south definitely lost on that account. Virginia then seceeded, and stupid inaction on the part of federal officials allowed the seizure of the arsenal at Harpers Ferry with almost all of its gunsmith machinery intact. The attempt of Confederate sympathizers to seize the arsenal at St. Louis was foiled by Franz Sigel, one of the German "Forty-eighters" who had come to this country, with staunch Socialist German small holders who had settled in Missouri and southern Illinois after fleeing Europe.

The war only happened when it did because of a hothead attitude in the South, actively fostered by Southern politicians who saw the handwriting on the wall, and thought to move quickly enough to prevent the inevitable collapse of the "peculiar institution." They were about twenty years too late--their way of life was already doomed, and their actions simply brought upon the nation more than four years of horrible strife and misery, and the deaths of a million Americans.

Throughout, chrisitians figured prominently as supporters of slavery, and far less prominently as opponents of slavery. Which is why this has become a part of this discussion. Haven't been very brief, have i?



This was a great post! A1, top notch... Did you really write all of this? If so, I think it is among the best posts I have read on this forum.

But... Smile

I am not sure I would call people using the Bible to justify slavery "Christians"...

One of the foundational scriptures that shape the Christian doctrine is:

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Comment:
Now for anyone to go out and procure a slave in light of this verse would no doubt be anti-christian...

As the Bible is researched more and more "Christians" have become more educated on what it really says and means...

So the gap between what the Bible means and what people think it means has been closing since the end of the dark ages and the reformation...

Many "Christian" traditions have been left behind because they simply contradict the biblical message addressed to the first century Christian church.

Does this excuse Christians for what they have erroneously done in the name of God? God will be the judge of that...
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 01:28 pm
RexRed wrote:
This was a great post! A1, top notch... Did you really write all of this? If so, I think it is among the best posts I have read on this forum.

But... Smile

I am not sure I would call people using the Bible to justify slavery "Christians"...



No, of course you wouldn't, Rex...because you hide your head in the sand when it comes to what the Bible actually says.

Fact is...considering what the god of the Christians says regarding slavery...and considering that Jesus, nor the Paul fellow, ever said one word about it being an abomination...

...it would be more proper to suppose that people NOT using the Bible to justify slavery...should not be called Christians.



Quote:
One of the foundational scriptures that shape the CHristian doctrine is,

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Really. So you want to quote Paul on this issue.

Here are a few more quotes from Paul on slavery:


At 1 Timothy 6:1ff, St. Paul says:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers."

At Colossians 3:22, St. Paul says:

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord."

At Colossians 4:1, St. Paul says:

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..."

At Titus 2:9, St. Paul says:

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior."

At 1 Corinthians 7:17ff, St. Paul says:

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...."

At Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he )Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.


Quote:
Comment:
Now for anyone to go out and procure a slave in light of this verse would no doubt be anti-christian...


Anyone reading the quotes above who does not see that the god of the Bible....Jesus Christ....and Paul...all saw nothing wrong with slavery....is either stupid....or so goddam afraid of this monster god that he/she simply will not see the obvious.



Quote:
As the Bible is researched more and more "Christians" have become more educated on what it really says and means...


You guys are in such denial....it almost hurts to watch it.


Quote:
So the gap between what the Bible means and what people think it means has been closing since the end of the dark ages and the reformation...


You guys are in such denial....it almost hurts to watch it.
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 02:29 pm
RexRed wrote:
This was a great post! A1, top notch... Did you really write all of this? If so, I think it is among the best posts I have read on this forum.


Yes i wrote all of it. Your having asked the question strongly suggests that i may have plagarized it. I would have thought that given the number of times that i have stated you are rarely capable of presenting a statement or argument coherently, you would have developed an aversion to responding to anything i've written. It is possible, as my post demonstrates, to take verifiable fact and summarize it in a coherent manner. I've yet to see you do that in these fora. Getting a compliment from you is not exactly on my list of life's goals. I have, in fact, developed a great deal of contempt for the opinions you express here, both because they rarely even approach coherence, and because of statments such as this:

Quote:
I am not sure I would call people using the Bible to justify slavery "Christians"...


As i have pointed out time and again, it is characteristic of religionists to deny that anyone whose actions bring their religion into disrepute is in fact a valid adherent of the religion. This is the cheapest form of cop-out, the equivalent of Peter "denying" the alleged Jesus three times before the cock crew. Those who profess christianity, while behaving differently and espousing different values than do you have just as much claim to being christians as do you--all they need do is profess the base requisite faith in the alleged Jesus as their "savior," and adherence to the precepts this alleged Jesus allegedly espoused to qualify. It is, however, common for one set of christians to deny that others are christians on the flimsiest of pretexts--let alone when the glaring evil of practices common to many millions of christians, such as slavery, bring the credo into disrepute. It doesn't work, however. They were or are christians every bit as much as you claim to be. As for your textual nonsense, Frank has ably dealt with that.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 04:39 pm
Set, But I enjoy that concept of people calling themselves christians, but really are not! It frees them of all the bad stuff they are responsible for. It's not like a race of people who call themselves Asian, white or black; we have long ago disowned Asians who have committed atrocities. As a minority, I can continue to stand proud.....
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 06:11 pm
Rex; If you will listen to Frank and Set and CI, you will be able to sharpen your argument. They present the objections being made by people all over the world. Take this last post by CI:
cicerone imposter wrote:
Set, But I enjoy that concept of people calling themselves christians, but really are not! It frees them of all the bad stuff they are responsible for. It's not like a race of people who call themselves Asian, white or black; we have long ago disowned Asians who have committed atrocities. As a minority, I can continue to stand proud.....
Setanta brought up the same issue. Frank probably did also. If not, I believe he would agree with it.

It's obviously not enough to say "These people are not following the bible, whereas I do."

If someone had asked me two weeks ago if slavery was permitted by the bible, I would have recalled images of the cruel treatment of slaves through the ages and would have answered with a categorical no. I would have been incorrect. The fact is that a form of slavery is permitted by the Hebrew and Greek scriptures.

That a legal sanction of it was first mentioned in the book of Leviticus should not be a surprise. Abraham had slaves. The Jews were accompanied by many non-Jews as they left Egypt. They had enough resources to finance and furnish the tabernacle. They could certainly have owned slaves.

We just have to ask: Why was slavery not forbidden by the 10 commandments?

I will give a plausible answer to this in a day or so, after which you all will condemn me as a sanctimonious sadducee of scriptural sadism, ban me from the forum, and burn my avatar.

So, I will wait a day or two to marshall my thoughts and enjoy my final moments of membership in this, my favorite herd.
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 07:23 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:
RexRed wrote:
This was a great post! A1, top notch... Did you really write all of this? If so, I think it is among the best posts I have read on this forum.

But... Smile

I am not sure I would call people using the Bible to justify slavery "Christians"...



No, of course you wouldn't, Rex...because you hide your head in the sand when it comes to what the Bible actually says.

Fact is...considering what the god of the Christians says regarding slavery...and considering that Jesus, nor the Paul fellow, ever said one word about it being an abomination...

...it would be more proper to suppose that people NOT using the Bible to justify slavery...should not be called Christians.



Quote:
One of the foundational scriptures that shape the CHristian doctrine is,

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Really. So you want to quote Paul on this issue.

Here are a few more quotes from Paul on slavery:


At 1 Timothy 6:1ff, St. Paul says:

"All under the yoke of slavery must regard their masters as worthy of full respect...Those slaves whose masters are brothers in the faith must not take liberties with them on that account. they must perform their tasks even more faithfully, since those who will profit from their work are believers and beloved brothers."

At Colossians 3:22, St. Paul says:

"To slaves I say, obey your human masters perfectly, not with the purpose of attracting attention and pleasing men, but in all sincerity and our of reverence for the Lord."

At Colossians 4:1, St. Paul says:

"You slave owners, deal justly and fairly with your slaves..."

At Titus 2:9, St. Paul says:

"Slaves are to be submissive to their masters. They should try to please them in every way, not contradicting them nor stealing from them, but expressing a constant fidelity by their conduct, so as to adorn in every way possible the doctrine of God our Savior."

At 1 Corinthians 7:17ff, St. Paul says:

"The general rule is that each one should lead the life the Lord has assigned him, continuing as he was when the Lord called him...Were you a slave when your call came? Give it no thought. Even supposing you could go free, you would be better off making the most of your slavery...."

At Philemon, Paul returns a slave (Onesimus) to his master (Philemon) and tells Philemon that although he )Paul) feels he has the right to command Philemon to free Onesimus, he would not do that, but would instead appeal to Philemon to do it on his own.


Quote:
Comment:
Now for anyone to go out and procure a slave in light of this verse would no doubt be anti-christian...


Anyone reading the quotes above who does not see that the god of the Bible....Jesus Christ....and Paul...all saw nothing wrong with slavery....is either stupid....or so goddam afraid of this monster god that he/she simply will not see the obvious.



Quote:
As the Bible is researched more and more "Christians" have become more educated on what it really says and means...


You guys are in such denial....it almost hurts to watch it.


Quote:
So the gap between what the Bible means and what people think it means has been closing since the end of the dark ages and the reformation...


You guys are in such denial....it almost hurts to watch it.



Frank no matter what "else" Paul said, The truth is that Paul came into a society of Jewish people who were quite paganized by Rome. So Paul could make all men spiritually equal but not outlaw slavery... How foolish you seem sometimes Frank...

Paul could at least tell people to treat slaves that were sanctioned by Roman law with some decency.

You seem to forget that Paul paid for his words with his life and all you can do is criticize him. That is a shame...

I can explain every verse that you have quoted. I find them all with wisdom and I do not even at all see what you are talking about... There is no bigotry only spiritual truth in Paul's words...

The one about Titus that tells that slaves are to be submissive to their masters also says only, two verses ahead...

You conveniently leave out the part...

2 Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Salvation has appeared to all men! sounds like our bill of rights Frank?
Frank you are full of hot air... You seem right but if one only digs slightly below the surface you are dead wrong...

Treat your slaves well and don't be despised of any man...

Can you fault Paul for saying that whey they were going to keep their slaves anyway? Hell some countries still have slaves today including the USA. What about the free Mexican labor in California? Should we treat them poorly Frank? Should we be despised of them? Again your point is hogwash...

Also do you think it would be right for you to tell someone what to do with their possessions when they are sanctioned by law? Slavery was sanctioned by Roman law...

You might tell someone that they can not own another spiritually equal person... but the real lesson needs to come from within that person...

Paul wrote:

"There is neither bond nor free... but all are one in Christ Jesus"... nothing you have "quoted" from Paul shows that he has back tracked on that "ideal" one bit...

I find it rather strange that you need to spend you time criticizing men who were crucified at the hands of the Romans... Pilot washed his hands of the deed but you seem to be up to your elbows in it...

Nothing you have quoted shows that Paul condones slavery... the verses just show Paul trying to make the best out of a bad situation. The verse I quoted is very clear and your verses are vague at best and do not make your point at all...

THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE....

Good try Frank...
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 08:02 pm
RexRed wrote:

Frank no matter what "else" Paul said, The truth is that Paul came into a society of Jewish people who were quite paganized by Rome. So Paul could make all men spiritually equal but not outlaw slavery... How foolish you seem sometimes Frank...

Paul could at least tell people to treat slaves that were sanctioned by Roman law with some decency.

You seem to forget that Paul paid for his words with his life and all you can do is criticize him. That is a shame...

I can explain every verse that you have quoted. I find them all with wisdom and I do not even at all see what you are talking about... There is no bigotry only spiritual truth in Paul's words...

The one about Titus that tells that slaves are to be submissive to their masters also says only, two verses ahead...

You conveniently leave out the part...

2 Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Salvation has appeared to all men! sounds like our bill of rights Frank?
Frank you are full of hot air... You seem right but if one only digs slightly below the surface you are dead wrong...

Treat your slaves well and don't be despised of any man...

Can you fault Paul for saying that whey they were going to keep their slaves anyway? Hell some countries still have slaves today including the USA. What about the free Mexican labor in California? Should we treat them poorly Frank? Should we be despised of them? Again your point is hogwash...

Also do you think it would be right for you to tell someone what to do with their possessions when they are sanctioned by law? Slavery was sanctioned by Roman law...

You might tell someone that they can not own another spiritually equal person... but the real lesson needs to come from within that person...

Paul wrote:

"There is neither bond nor free... but all are one in Christ Jesus"... nothing you have "quoted" from Paul shows that he has back tracked on that "ideal" one bit...

I find it rather strange that you need to spend you time criticizing men who were crucified at the hands of the Romans... Pilot washed his hands of the deed but you seem to be up to your elbows in it...

Nothing you have quoted shows that Paul condones slavery... the verses just show Paul trying to make the best out of a bad situation. The verse I quoted is very clear and your verses are vague at best and do not make your point at all...

THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE....

Good try Frank...



Just like all Christians, you're picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe or disbelieve.

I can't wait until you die and see how badly you wasted your life believing this crap. Smile
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 08:11 pm
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
This was a great post! A1, top notch... Did you really write all of this? If so, I think it is among the best posts I have read on this forum.


Yes i wrote all of it. Your having asked the question strongly suggests that i may have plagarized it. I would have thought that given the number of times that i have stated you are rarely capable of presenting a statement or argument coherently, you would have developed an aversion to responding to anything i've written. It is possible, as my post demonstrates, to take verifiable fact and summarize it in a coherent manner. I've yet to see you do that in these fora. Getting a compliment from you is not exactly on my list of life's goals. I have, in fact, developed a great deal of contempt for the opinions you express here, both because they rarely even approach coherence, and because of statments such as this:

Quote:
I am not sure I would call people using the Bible to justify slavery "Christians"...


As i have pointed out time and again, it is characteristic of religionists to deny that anyone whose actions bring their religion into disrepute is in fact a valid adherent of the religion. This is the cheapest form of cop-out, the equivalent of Peter "denying" the alleged Jesus three times before the cock crew. Those who profess christianity, while behaving differently and espousing different values than do you have just as much claim to being christians as do you--all they need do is profess the base requisite faith in the alleged Jesus as their "savior," and adherence to the precepts this alleged Jesus allegedly espoused to qualify. It is, however, common for one set of christians to deny that others are christians on the flimsiest of pretexts--let alone when the glaring evil of practices common to many millions of christians, such as slavery, bring the credo into disrepute. It doesn't work, however. They were or are christians every bit as much as you claim to be. As for your textual nonsense, Frank has ably dealt with that.


I am sorry that I implied that you did not write the article... Yes, it seemed like a slam, I may have meant it that way.. I am not that sure of my motives... Hey, I am human too with no excuse...

But it was also a compliment. I guess that is the way I sometimes compliment people who have insulted me in the past. I just could not let the opportunity to compliment you on your post pass by even though it was a bit laced possibly with a bit of spite.

I felt the Christian comments in the end were placed there only to get me to respond in an inflammatory manner anyway.

So I responded, but I also wanted you to know that other than the comment at the end, about Christians, I liked the post.

I also tend to agree with you that misinterpretation of the scriptures leads to some very backward thinking...

I am only interested in the Bible for the virtue that it can teach me. But I like all of you am worried about what kinds of evil can come out of the abuse and misuse of the Bible that I tend to let comments about crazy Christians slip under the radar. Because some Christians are crazy.. It would be nice if they had a bit of science to ground them back to earth sometimes. They keep their heads in the clouds so long that reality becomes warped. But, Frank is just as warped...

So... here is where it stands... if the Bible is really the inspired word of God then where there is a disagreement someone is either wrong or right... I am usually right... Smile

These discussions have been so helpful to me. I am able to bounce some of my ideas off of others whose opinions I do respect.

Thx
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 08:16 pm
maporsche wrote:
RexRed wrote:

Frank no matter what "else" Paul said, The truth is that Paul came into a society of Jewish people who were quite paganized by Rome. So Paul could make all men spiritually equal but not outlaw slavery... How foolish you seem sometimes Frank...

Paul could at least tell people to treat slaves that were sanctioned by Roman law with some decency.

You seem to forget that Paul paid for his words with his life and all you can do is criticize him. That is a shame...

I can explain every verse that you have quoted. I find them all with wisdom and I do not even at all see what you are talking about... There is no bigotry only spiritual truth in Paul's words...

The one about Titus that tells that slaves are to be submissive to their masters also says only, two verses ahead...

You conveniently leave out the part...

2 Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Salvation has appeared to all men! sounds like our bill of rights Frank?
Frank you are full of hot air... You seem right but if one only digs slightly below the surface you are dead wrong...

Treat your slaves well and don't be despised of any man...

Can you fault Paul for saying that whey they were going to keep their slaves anyway? Hell some countries still have slaves today including the USA. What about the free Mexican labor in California? Should we treat them poorly Frank? Should we be despised of them? Again your point is hogwash...

Also do you think it would be right for you to tell someone what to do with their possessions when they are sanctioned by law? Slavery was sanctioned by Roman law...

You might tell someone that they can not own another spiritually equal person... but the real lesson needs to come from within that person...

Paul wrote:

"There is neither bond nor free... but all are one in Christ Jesus"... nothing you have "quoted" from Paul shows that he has back tracked on that "ideal" one bit...

I find it rather strange that you need to spend you time criticizing men who were crucified at the hands of the Romans... Pilot washed his hands of the deed but you seem to be up to your elbows in it...

Nothing you have quoted shows that Paul condones slavery... the verses just show Paul trying to make the best out of a bad situation. The verse I quoted is very clear and your verses are vague at best and do not make your point at all...

THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE....

Good try Frank...



Just like all Christians, you're picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe or disbelieve.

I can't wait until you die and see how badly you wasted your life believing this crap. Smile


I am not rejecting what Paul has written in the Bible I am rejecting the way Frank has interpreted it.

I should have taken more time to counter it but I feel I made a good case...
0 Replies
 
Setanta
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:04 pm
RexRed wrote:
I felt the Christian comments in the end were placed there only to get me to respond in an inflammatory manner anyway.


This may come as a profound shock to you, but i go from one day to the next with never a thought of you. Yes, it's true--i am almost never motivated to write something because of you. It is only because you have quoted me directly that i've twice addressed you in the same day.

Had you been paying attention when you were reading, you'd have realized that i wrote what i did in response to a question from Neo.

Get over yourself.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:04 pm
RexRed wrote:
maporsche wrote:
RexRed wrote:

Frank no matter what "else" Paul said, The truth is that Paul came into a society of Jewish people who were quite paganized by Rome. So Paul could make all men spiritually equal but not outlaw slavery... How foolish you seem sometimes Frank...

Paul could at least tell people to treat slaves that were sanctioned by Roman law with some decency.

You seem to forget that Paul paid for his words with his life and all you can do is criticize him. That is a shame...

I can explain every verse that you have quoted. I find them all with wisdom and I do not even at all see what you are talking about... There is no bigotry only spiritual truth in Paul's words...

The one about Titus that tells that slaves are to be submissive to their masters also says only, two verses ahead...

You conveniently leave out the part...

2 Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

Salvation has appeared to all men! sounds like our bill of rights Frank?
Frank you are full of hot air... You seem right but if one only digs slightly below the surface you are dead wrong...

Treat your slaves well and don't be despised of any man...

Can you fault Paul for saying that whey they were going to keep their slaves anyway? Hell some countries still have slaves today including the USA. What about the free Mexican labor in California? Should we treat them poorly Frank? Should we be despised of them? Again your point is hogwash...

Also do you think it would be right for you to tell someone what to do with their possessions when they are sanctioned by law? Slavery was sanctioned by Roman law...

You might tell someone that they can not own another spiritually equal person... but the real lesson needs to come from within that person...

Paul wrote:

"There is neither bond nor free... but all are one in Christ Jesus"... nothing you have "quoted" from Paul shows that he has back tracked on that "ideal" one bit...

I find it rather strange that you need to spend you time criticizing men who were crucified at the hands of the Romans... Pilot washed his hands of the deed but you seem to be up to your elbows in it...

Nothing you have quoted shows that Paul condones slavery... the verses just show Paul trying to make the best out of a bad situation. The verse I quoted is very clear and your verses are vague at best and do not make your point at all...

THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE....

Good try Frank...



Just like all Christians, you're picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe or disbelieve.

I can't wait until you die and see how badly you wasted your life believing this crap. Smile


I am not rejecting what Paul has written in the Bible I am rejecting the way Frank has interpreted it.

I should have taken more time to counter it but I feel I made a good case...


You are so blind...it is pathetic.

The verses say what they say. All this bullshyt revision you want to peddle is absurd.

Your god says that it is okay to own and traffic in slaves. YOUR GOD SAYS THAT.

Paul says that slaves are slaves because his god....which, I needn't point out, is also your god....wanted them to be slaves.

Jesus never said a word against slavery....and neither did Paul.

Here's another of my favorites. Tell the group how you interpret it:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:21 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

Here's another of my favorites. Tell the group how you interpret it:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13



Frank, you know as well as I do that this is one of the verses where you take a literal translation of the bible. Gays should be executed.

Unlike those other ones where a day is really millions of years; the flood didn't really cover the whole world; Mosus didn't literaly take two of every animal; and so on.
0 Replies
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:35 pm
"I can't wait until you die and see how badly you wasted your life believing this crap."

That's the catch; by the time they die, they've already wasted much of their lives for nothing. All that emotion and effort for - nothing. Wink
0 Replies
 
RexRed
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 09:58 pm
Setanta wrote:
RexRed wrote:
I felt the Christian comments in the end were placed there only to get me to respond in an inflammatory manner anyway.


This may come as a profound shock to you, but i go from one day to the next with never a thought of you. Yes, it's true--i am almost never motivated to write something because of you. It is only because you have quoted me directly that i've twice addressed you in the same day.

Had you been paying attention when you were reading, you'd have realized that i wrote what i did in response to a question from Neo.

Get over yourself.


Yes, I responded with a compliment and you respond with a holier than thou attitude. I have had nothing to get over... So you act not only snotty but you also act conceited...

What is to admire about that? I was only saying you were wrong about Christians... I said my peace and you respond with insult, so be it... It is not me with the tolerance problems... So go back and rethink your rhetoric because it does not work with me...
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Wed 22 Jun, 2005 10:16 pm
maporsche wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

Here's another of my favorites. Tell the group how you interpret it:

"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13



Frank, you know as well as I do that this is one of the verses where you take a literal translation of the bible. Gays should be executed.

Unlike those other ones where a day is really millions of years; the flood didn't really cover the whole world; Mosus didn't literaly take two of every animal; and so on.
ma; We're no longer under the law, so put away the rope.

Mosus didn't take two of anything. But that is a cool sounding name. Who is he/she?

The reason homosexuality is still a sin is because of its consequences. Promiscuity brings physical, mental and social ills, if not as a direct cause then as a substantial contributing factor.
0 Replies
 
 

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