Frank Apisa wrote:RexRed wrote:maporsche wrote:RexRed wrote:
Frank no matter what "else" Paul said, The truth is that Paul came into a society of Jewish people who were quite paganized by Rome. So Paul could make all men spiritually equal but not outlaw slavery... How foolish you seem sometimes Frank...
Paul could at least tell people to treat slaves that were sanctioned by Roman law with some decency.
You seem to forget that Paul paid for his words with his life and all you can do is criticize him. That is a shame...
I can explain every verse that you have quoted. I find them all with wisdom and I do not even at all see what you are talking about... There is no bigotry only spiritual truth in Paul's words...
The one about Titus that tells that slaves are to be submissive to their masters also says only, two verses ahead...
You conveniently leave out the part...
2 Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Salvation has appeared to all men! sounds like our bill of rights Frank?
Frank you are full of hot air... You seem right but if one only digs slightly below the surface you are dead wrong...
Treat your slaves well and don't be despised of any man...
Can you fault Paul for saying that whey they were going to keep their slaves anyway? Hell some countries still have slaves today including the USA. What about the free Mexican labor in California? Should we treat them poorly Frank? Should we be despised of them? Again your point is hogwash...
Also do you think it would be right for you to tell someone what to do with their possessions when they are sanctioned by law? Slavery was sanctioned by Roman law...
You might tell someone that they can not own another spiritually equal person... but the real lesson needs to come from within that person...
Paul wrote:
"There is neither bond nor free... but all are one in Christ Jesus"... nothing you have "quoted" from Paul shows that he has back tracked on that "ideal" one bit...
I find it rather strange that you need to spend you time criticizing men who were crucified at the hands of the Romans... Pilot washed his hands of the deed but you seem to be up to your elbows in it...
Nothing you have quoted shows that Paul condones slavery... the verses just show Paul trying to make the best out of a bad situation. The verse I quoted is very clear and your verses are vague at best and do not make your point at all...
THERE IS NEITHER BOND NOR FREE....
Good try Frank...
Just like all Christians, you're picking and choosing what parts of the bible to believe or disbelieve.
I can't wait until you die and see how badly you wasted your life believing this crap.
I am not rejecting what Paul has written in the Bible I am rejecting the way Frank has interpreted it.
I should have taken more time to counter it but I feel I made a good case...
You are so blind...it is pathetic.
The verses say what they say. All this bullshyt revision you want to peddle is absurd.
Your god says that it is okay to own and traffic in slaves. YOUR GOD SAYS THAT.
Paul says that slaves are slaves because his god....which, I needn't point out, is also your god....wanted them to be slaves.
Jesus never said a word against slavery....and neither did Paul.
Here's another of my favorites. Tell the group how you interpret it:
"If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them shall be
put to death for their abominable deed; they have forfeited their
lives." Leviticus 20:13
Frank adulterers were stoned too... Can you say venereal disease? This is spread by unprotected promiscuous sex. Are you God? Are you so all knowing?
You only answer the questions that I ask that you want to answer. How do you know that had God allowed homosexuality and adultery that maybe the Hebrews may not have survived? Are you the almighty? Do you know the future? You definitely do not! Are you the one who created the heavens and the earth? Are you so certain of yourself that you know what all of the possible consequences of every action that happens throughout time? No
you are guessing... But your guess is propped up against God (is this for your own deification?)...
Are you so sure that had God allowed sex to become wild and abandon that the cost would have been very great on Christianity? Again you are a fool... I suppose bestiality, incest, pederasty all of them are fine with you... why set any boundaries? This is the corner you have worked your way into...
All you are doing is walking backwards into evil...
You never stop to think about the fact that God may have had his reasons? What are they? Well you don't seem to care you only want to continue your rant and rave about cartoons and barbarity... Well in your push to prove the barbarity of God you have stepped into your own...
So you might ask what could possibly be the reason for God stoning homosexuals? Or were the homosexuals and adulterers stoning themselves?
What ever the reason God has to remain just...
Adulterers were stoned too. So was the "abominable deed" extra marital sex or adultery? I am sure that many more adulterers were stoned than homosexuals...
So then why are adulterers forfeiting their lives due to an "abominable deed"?
Well do you not think that if a person goes out and catches venereal disease and brings it home their spouse that they are killing their spouse and themselves too? But God doesn't know anything about human matters like this Frank... God is a barbarian remember?
God doesn't know that when men are all living together in a communal setting that disease can rapidly spread and suddenly you have a sick looking tribe when the men are all having sex together... Sometimes I think you never give these things even a thought as if male orgies are an accepted practice... Men living in one area and women living in another... Do you expect them to be having orgies? You have bisexual men then carrying disease home to their wives... also women and men can spread this disease to their children... does this not sound like a death sentence anyway?
God did not condemn homosexuals he condemned the "deed" happening within the tribe... If a tribes person did not like the laws of the Hebrew God they could pack up their things and hop the next caravan/camel and go and live somewhere else... Frank you don't know what you are talking about. This was the choice of the Hebrews to live in this community governed by strict rules of conduct that guaranteed survival. Even today promiscuity is a death warrant... I do not equate promiscuity with homosexuals because heteros are wife swapping all the time too... Sex outside of marriage means death even if you are a homosexual. Many homosexuals are not very monogamous though... Now back then you could die from a common infection, even yeast infection could be deadly.
Frank you want clear cut answers to your questions but wisdom would not be called wisdom if it was not wise... God is wise... I question God all of the time but I trust he has a reason that goes beyond my own ability to always immediately see right off. It is not that little Hebrew kids were not told that homosexuality in the tribe was not tolerated. They were taught from youth. Unlike in our culture where teachers avoid the subject of homosexuality. So if after you reached puberty and you wanted to live a life of being gay there was always Greece, the isle of Lesbos, Rome, Babylon etc.... Many people left the tribe to seek life beyond tribe.
The laws of Moses were addressed to the Hebrews not the world in general. The Hebrews carried the honor of being God's chosen people who would bear the Christ child and free the world from the law. This was not just something that needed to be done when Mary was ready to give birth but the Hebrews needed to be sustained until the time of the birth of Jesus Christ.
This story of stoning homosexuals and adulterers leads up to a story of a woman who conceives without having sex with a man and a child that unites the Jews and the gentiles and breaks down the barriers between male and female and bond and free. Yet Frank for some reason you are not happy with this story... What would you change about this story? Would you rather the Hebrews have been engulfed in one big sex orgy? Should the Hebrews have joined the pagans and then we would all be dancing around some phallic today. So are you saying Frank that if you were God in spite of the disaster in God's foreknowledge that would befall the Hebrews that you would have encouraged homosexuality in the laws of the Hebrews anyway?
I think the laws in the US regarding the spread of disease to be too lenient in our day and time. The world is on the verge of a health crisis and the major cities zoning committees are opening more stripper clubs... People are using date rape drugs and taking advantage of drunk persons in clubs and the damage to society as a whole are catastrophic. So we throw people who murder others in jail as a form or torture so they can think about their sins every day of the rest of their lives...
I am sure that gay people and adulterers have issues with God yet it was the son of God that fulfilled the law and brought an end to the law that the people
begged God to give them. Yet even with the law having no jurisdiction over a Christian anymore is it still right to do "abominable deeds" and betray a lover or friend by subjecting them to a possibly fatal disease?
Our tribe today is dying around us. They are casting their own stones at themselves. Their lives are forfeit...
Is it right to value sexuality above spirituality?
