33
   

Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 09:46 am
Man is not capable of determining absolute truth - limited by our perception, senses, and biology. As a matter of fact, this may be the only absolute truth. Wink
0 Replies
 
timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 10:17 am
real life wrote:
Omniscience is required to prove the ABSENCE of something.

It does not take omniscience to experience something; for one to say, for instance, "I have a plan for tomorrow." does not require omniscience.

You may not believe that I have a plan, or you may want to scoff and call my plan something else if you don't like it. But it does not require omniscience.

You could shout "Prove you have a plan for tomorrow." and whatever I answered you could scoff, "well you're just making it up." However omniscience would be required for you to prove that it did not exist.

Nice try, Timber.

If you would like to take a swipe at proving the non-existence of God, go ahead. We will be attentive.



Lame try on your part, real life. There is neither proof nor disproof for the paranormal - by definition the paranormal is unproveable. Agnostiscism is the only logical option. As to your "Plan" thesis - the only "Proof" of your "Plan" would entail both its documentation and its accomplishment. I have no way of knowing whether or not you have a plan. However, if you can provide evidence of having formulated a plan to which can be ascribed the subsequent dendendent accomplishment of particulars, then I would say not that your plan had been "Proven" but that it had not been disproven.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 10:51 pm
timberlandko wrote:

There is neither proof nor disproof for the paranormal - by definition the paranormal is unproveable. Agnostiscism is the only logical option.


Interesting. Consider that what is considered unprovable today, may not be considered so tomorrow.

That is why I used the example of thought . "I have a plan" is thought, nothing more.

Five hundred years ago there was no way to prove the existence of thought. Everyone knew they had thoughts but there was no tangible measuring of them. They might have been labeled "paranormal" by your definition, since they were not provable, only experienced.

Agnosticism might seem the only option if you lack the experience of faith. But Faith, when experienced, is like thought. It may not be "provable" by today's standards but it is experienced. Being "unprovable" does not make it unreal, just unmeasurable.

Since something can be real, though not measured, it cannot be considered illogical simply on the grounds of it's immeasurability. Hence , Faith is a logical position. Agnosticism is not the only logical option.

In short, just because you do not understand something (cannot measure it), does not make it illogical. Something doesn't become true when you understand it. It was true before you understood it. Hence , truth is objective, not subjective.
0 Replies
 
maporsche
 
  1  
Reply Wed 8 Jun, 2005 11:01 pm
real life wrote:
timberlandko wrote:

There is neither proof nor disproof for the paranormal - by definition the paranormal is unproveable. Agnostiscism is the only logical option.


Interesting. Consider that what is considered unprovable today, may not be considered so tomorrow.

That is why I used the example of thought . "I have a plan" is thought, nothing more.

Five hundred years ago there was no way to prove the existence of thought. Everyone knew they had thoughts but there was no tangible measuring of them. They might have been labeled "paranormal" by your definition, since they were not provable, only experienced.

Agnosticism might seem the only option if you lack the experience of faith. But Faith, when experienced, is like thought. It may not be "provable" by today's standards but it is experienced. Being "unprovable" does not make it unreal, just unmeasurable.

Since something can be real, though not measured, it cannot be considered illogical simply on the grounds of it's immeasurability. Hence , Faith is a logical position. Agnosticism is not the only logical option.

In short, just because you do not understand something (cannot measure it), does not make it illogical. Something doesn't become true when you understand it. It was true before you understood it. Hence , truth is objective, not subjective.


Is it possible to experience 'faith'. Isn't faith something you either have or you don't. Isn't the definition of blind faith; faith without experience or knowledge? Can you have blind faith in god when you are also able to experience said faith?

I would venture to say that your 'faith' experience is nothing more than a warm fuzzy feeling in your gut, and not the work of some diety. I get the same feeling watching Bill Pullman's speech from Independence Day, starring Will Smith. You know what speech I'm talking about.
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 03:29 am
real life wrote:

Quote:

Agnosticism might seem the only option if you lack the experience of faith. But Faith, when experienced, is like thought. It may not be "provable" by today's standards but it is experienced. Being "unprovable" does not make it unreal, just unmeasurable.


Why would anyone try to "prove" that "faith" exists.

Of course it exists.

"Faith" is making a guess about the unknown....and then insisting it is correct despite the fact that it is pulled out of thin air.

There is no big deal about faith.

To have it...all you need to do is be stubborn and illogical and afraid of the unknown. All you have to do is to guess about the true nature of REALITY....and then INSIST that your blind guess is correct.

Some of the dumbest people on the planet can come up with "faith"....and in fact, some of the dumbest people on the planet often do.


Quote:
Since something can be real, though not measured, it cannot be considered illogical simply on the grounds of it's immeasurability. Hence , Faith is a logical position. Agnosticism is not the only logical option.


In certain matters, agnosticism IS the only logical option...but I am willing to concede your point because it has no real impact on agnosticism.

Faith, my friend, WILL NEVER be a logical position.


Quote:
In short, just because you do not understand something (cannot measure it), does not make it illogical. Something doesn't become true when you understand it. It was true before you understood it. Hence , truth is objective, not subjective.


I agree...but the truth you acknowledge here does not impact on my comment that "faith" will never be a logical position.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 11:19 am
Absolutely all of my relatives agree on this; and of this they are absolutely sure:There are no absolutes. Gasp!
0 Replies
 
sunlover
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 04:52 pm
I don't think there are any absolutes. Teaching absolutes, as in a religion, is brainwashing! Would be limiting a person's ability to think for him/her self.
0 Replies
 
real life
 
  1  
Reply Thu 9 Jun, 2005 09:50 pm
Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no big deal about faith.

To have it...all you need to do is be stubborn and illogical and afraid of the unknown. All you have to do is to guess about the true nature of REALITY....and then INSIST that your blind guess is correct.

Some of the dumbest people on the planet can come up with "faith"....and in fact, some of the dumbest people on the planet often do.


Well folks, there you have it once again demonstrated. It doesn't take long, does it?

They run out of things to say and start in with "You're dumb....You're illogical.... You're blah blah blah...."

How sad that your argument has sunk to this level so quickly.
0 Replies
 
Steve 41oo
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 08:05 am
any of you care to comment here?

http://www.able2know.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=53392&highlight=
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 08:47 am
real life wrote:
Frank Apisa wrote:

There is no big deal about faith.

To have it...all you need to do is be stubborn and illogical and afraid of the unknown. All you have to do is to guess about the true nature of REALITY....and then INSIST that your blind guess is correct.

Some of the dumbest people on the planet can come up with "faith"....and in fact, some of the dumbest people on the planet often do.


Well folks, there you have it once again demonstrated. It doesn't take long, does it?

They run out of things to say and start in with "You're dumb....You're illogical.... You're blah blah blah...."

How sad that your argument has sunk to this level so quickly.


Well I certainly haven't run out of things to say...although you seem to have run out of ways to deal with the things I have said.

"Faith"...this bit of nonsense you seem to think is such a big deal...is merely insisting that one's guesses about the unknown are correct. It is stubbornness...a refusal to acknowledge that the guess could be wrong.

And some of the dumbest people I know...exhibit that trait.

So how about dealing with that observation...instead of playing the cry-baby and pretending that I am calling you dumb.

As for what is sad, real life....it is sad that your side has to sink to such levels.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:05 am
Does faith necessarily mean, uninformed and illogical?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:13 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
Does faith necessarily mean, uninformed and illogical?


I don't think so...not "necessarily. But "faith" certainly means refusing to accept that a guess may be wrong.

It is being stubborn!

The word is used most often when discussing religion.

Essentially....a person says they "have faith"....in a notion of reality.

They "believe" there is a God....which is to say, they guess there is a God.

And they have "faith" in that guess....which is to say, they are stubborn about insisting that their guess is correct.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:16 am
The bible defines faith at Hebrews 11:1. Doesn't sound like credulity to me.
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timberlandko
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:19 am
At the empirical level, there is no way to differentiate faith from superstition. Any forensic attempt to validate "FAITH" devolves immediately into sophistry, and depends entirely on the fallacy of wholly self-referential circular reasoning. There simply is no independently verifiable external evidence to support the proposition. It is a best a guess, and at worst, as so often in practice and execution, an outright fraud.
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:21 am
Would you say your belief that the sun will rise tomorrow is faith or some other mental quality?
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cicerone imposter
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:22 am
timber hit it on the head of the nail; there ain't no way to verify it by external evidence. And yet, people claim to "live" by it. Wink
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:23 am
If the guess is made based on what we have and know, then is it more than just blind faith?
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:25 am
Are there two knds of faith: blind and 20/20?
0 Replies
 
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:26 am
thunder_runner32 wrote:
If the guess is made based on what we have and know, then is it more than just blind faith?



Please note that word "IF."

If it is based on horseshyt....as most faith is....then it is just blind faith....or as I prefer to think of it....stubbornness.
0 Replies
 
thunder runner32
 
  1  
Reply Fri 10 Jun, 2005 09:29 am
"Horseshyt" to you, but can you disprove the unseen? Given the parameters of the bible are true, what makes it illogical?
0 Replies
 
 

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