33
   

Which Religion is the One True Religion?

 
 
spendius
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 12:29 pm
@Frank Apisa,
It is stupid for Apisa to make remarks that had been rebutted before he made them and at the same time claim to be reading all the posts on the thread.

Quote:
You make a guess (in the case of gods, a "blind guess") about something unknown...and call the guess a "belief."


Who is this mythical "you"? It can't be a person with the belief because the belief implies something known.

Apisa also fails to separate belief from the appearance of belief as with a Roman Emperor piously sacrificing at an altar to a pagan God when visiting a province of the Empire where that God is worshipped and about which he knows nothing.

Apisa guesses that the appearance of belief is actual belief: which is a blind guess about something unknown and then he believes in his guess.

He believes he's American and he is just another of nature's organisms, by his own logic, crawling about the surface of the earth.

The modern criticism of Christianity is that, as with Humanism, it falls into the error of thinking humans are a different order of beings from the rest of creation. A self evident and fundamental error to an evolutionist. Humanists follow Christians in such a belief but for them salvation is in progress despite there being no such thing as progress in evolution.
RonPrice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 03:59 pm
@spendius,
Since you mention, spendius, a Roman Emperor piously sacrificing at an altar to a pagan God, you might enjoy Gore Vidal's book Julian.-Ron
-------------------------------------------
As a genre, the historical novel demands colour and movement. It is not history but imaginative re-creation; a kind of dream-edifice, based solidly (or so one hopes) upon ascertainable or probable fact, but essentially an excursion into romance. That it is often self-indulgent and irresponsible we do not need to remind ourselves; every season spawns dozens of these reconstructions, each one proclaiming itself more colourful and more colossal than all the others, and generally with a sort of inverted justice. Yet the sleazy, commercialized examples should not prejudice us against the form as such, for the data of dream and the data of fact may serve fictional truth equally well.

The interpreter is everything. If he sets before us nothing but period derring-do and athletics, dÈcollete and sword-play, the forsooth-and-egad exoticisms of "researched" intrigue, he is only a salesman. He is making scenes, not significant arrangements. But if, like Gore Vidal in this evocation of Julian the Apostate, he is able to penetrate to depths of human meaning, to the chromatic play of personalities and events, his vision may create a design not wholly remote from parable or allegory.

What it was that interested Mr Vidal in Julian as a subject for fictionalized biography I do not know. It may have been his recent and not entirely satisfactory theatre experience with another Roman theme (He adapted Friederich Duerrenmatt's "Romulus" for Broadway, where it quickly failed.) Perhaps he decided to explore a social and political analogy. In any event, it was a happy inspiration. Julian himself is a vivid and attractive figure, surely the most engaging of the Roman emperors of the decline. His reign was brief, only 16 months. In A.D. 363, at the age of 32, he was killed in battle; but his short career was a notable one, and it is not too much to say that the last months of his administration altered the course of Western history. Moreover, he challenges our interest and sympathy as a complex, witty, unpredictable human being. We know him today by the name his Christian enemies called him, "Apostate," though we do not much bother to inquire into the nature of his "apostasy," if indeed it ever existed.

He has come down to us as a kind of historical poke: a combination of bogey-man and Judas Iscariot, a philosopher who made fun of his own beard, wrote stilted panegyrics upon persons whom he sincerely hated, persecuted various deserving Christian bishops, ridiculed the Holy Trinity ("the Triple Monster") and attempted to re-establish the cult of the old pagan gods. We are told also, though not by Mr. Vidal, that he died in agony of Early Christian remorse with a verse of Swinburne on his lips: "Thou hast conquered, O pale Galilaean!"

There are germs of truth in some of these details, but the picture is a distorted one. Julian's was indeed a Christian boyhood, if the fashionable Arianism of the Constantinople of his cousin Constantius Augustus deserves the name Christian; but the murderous example of his own family and the internecine theological squabbles of his preceptors soon disgusted him with Christianity, and his philosophical bent (which was genuine) and romantic tendency toward antiquarianism made it easy for him to see himself as a throwback to the pagan past.

His attempt to reimpose the old gods--or, rather, the old gods as seen through a mist of Mithras-worship and degenerating neo-Platonism--failed because he was utterly unrealistic in assessing the hearts of men and in evaluating the theological and political forces with which he had to contend. He was a schizophrene, straight from the textbooks: a philosopher and man of letters, yet one of the most spectacular military commanders since Julius Caesear; a fanatical conservative in religion, yet a cynical and disillusioned exponent of freedom of worship; a sensualist, a man of the world, yet at the same time an almost compulsive ascetic. And, above all things, he was alive, enchanted with living, intensely and drivingly engaged.

It is this quality of flashing vitality that Mr. Vidal admirably captures in his book. One may have reservations as to the literary and polemical value of much that goes on in his pages, but the breathing actuality of his Julian is not to be denied. The form itself is favorable and flexible: a kind of diary, notes and observations jotted down by the tireless Julian, with a choral antiphony of comment by two of his elderly mentors who survive him to copy and gloss his manuscript. Needless to say, no such manuscript exists; but Mr. Vidal has drawn so intelligently upon Julian's actual writings and those of historians and theologians contemporary with the Emperor that the texture and tone of his narrative are persuasively in character.

The neurotic, witty, pensive, reckless, domineering, sincerely humble young leader emerges so clearly that even in his less felicitous moments, when he sounds for all the world like the late George Apley trying out for the role of Shakespeare's Richard II, we believe in him and like him. It is evident that Mr. Vidal has learned much from the Robert Graves of the Claudius books: the freshness of the speaking voice in narrative soliloquy, the inevitable but discreetly managed modernization of diction, outlook, action.

One has reservations, of course. The pageantry and local color, inescapable in historical novels, are too often touched by intimations of Hollywood. Yes, there are elephants; and dancing girls and tumblers; and jeweled fat eunuchs--platoons of them. There is at least one considerable Orgy, during which Unutterable Vice finds utterance, and there is one of the funniest scenes of sexual intercourse that an eclipse of the comic sense has recently permitted to escape into print.

More seriously, Mr. Vidal is generally unsuccessful in his attempts to demonstrate Julian the theological controversialist in action. The metaphysical speculation is so superficial, so text-book adolescent, that one wonders why those frightful bishops, hammering each other's skulls with homoiousion and homoousion, took the young Apostate so seriously in the first place. Here, clearly, Mr. Vidal has got beyond his depth and has innocently betrayed his hero; but the fact that this blemish does not impede the flash and drive of his narrative testifies to the beguiling power of his wit, his craftsman's sleight of hand.

Plato once said that in the ideal society philosophers would be kings or kings philosophers. Julian, but off at the very beginning of his career, was of the calibre to prove Plato's point. Mr Vidal does not show us this, and his failure is what ultimately keeps the novel from rising above the level of high entertainment.
InfraBlue
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 04:18 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

spendius wrote:

And to say that the process is not very (sic) complex is a mark of the utterest stupidity and over-weening arrogance.

It's about as complex as his guesses about centaurs and jinn.


The process of "belief" is NOT complex at all, InfraBlue.

You make a guess (in the case of gods, a "blind guess") about something unknown...and call the guess a "belief."

Often, you also add that "beliefs" ought to be paid respect.

It would be stupid to keep the blind guess as a blind guess...and say the blinde guess ought to be paid respect.

Does this assertion apply to your blind guesses about centaurs and jinn as well?
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 04:41 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

spendius wrote:

And to say that the process is not very (sic) complex is a mark of the utterest stupidity and over-weening arrogance.

It's about as complex as his guesses about centaurs and jinn.


The process of "belief" is NOT complex at all, InfraBlue.

You make a guess (in the case of gods, a "blind guess") about something unknown...and call the guess a "belief."

Often, you also add that "beliefs" ought to be paid respect.

It would be stupid to keep the blind guess as a blind guess...and say the blinde guess ought to be paid respect.

Does this assertion apply to your blind guesses about centaurs and jinn as well?


And what "blind guesses" are you talking about???
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 04:49 pm
@RonPrice,
RonPrice wrote:
. . . fictional truth . . .
No wonder you have so much trouble getting to the point
0 Replies
 
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 05:09 pm
@Frank Apisa,
I'm talking about the guesses you make about centaurs and jinn of course.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 05:11 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

I'm talking about the guesses you make about centaurs and jinn of course.


What guesses have I made about centaurs and jinn, Blue?
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 05:43 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

I'm talking about the guesses you make about centaurs and jinn of course.


What guesses have I made about centaurs and jinn, Blue?

You tell me, please. I'm sure you've got ideas about them, right? Like, whether they exist or not.
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 05:47 pm
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:

InfraBlue wrote:

I'm talking about the guesses you make about centaurs and jinn of course.


What guesses have I made about centaurs and jinn, Blue?

You tell me, please. I'm sure you've got ideas about them, right? Like, whether they exist or not.


I make no guesses about things like centaurs, jinn, tooth fairies, unicorns...or the like.

So I ask again...what guesses?
spendius
 
  0  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 06:18 pm
@RonPrice,
An interesting post Ron.

Quote:
There is at least one considerable Orgy, during which Unutterable Vice finds utterance, and there is one of the funniest scenes of sexual intercourse that an eclipse of the comic sense has recently permitted to escape into print.


One has to guess at the "unutterable vice" but no matter--the very words are exiting enough.

I have not read the book but I hope the scene was funnier than when Myra gave Rusty one with a strap-on. That was a joyous eclipse of the cosmic sense imo.
spendius
 
  2  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 06:21 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Quote:
I make no guesses about things like centaurs, jinn, tooth fairies, unicorns...or the like.


Apisa allows that such beings might exist.

Wor a nonny eh? What a fuckwit?
0 Replies
 
RonPrice
 
  1  
Reply Fri 17 Jan, 2014 07:04 pm
@spendius,
I always enjoyed Vidal when interviewed. Vidal once reported that the secret to his lengthy homosexual relationship with Howard Austen was that they did not have sex with each other: "It's easy to sustain a relationship when sex plays no part and impossible, I have observed, when it does."-Ron
InfraBlue
 
  1  
Reply Sat 18 Jan, 2014 09:51 pm
@Frank Apisa,
Frank Apisa wrote:
I make no guesses about things like centaurs, jinn, tooth fairies, unicorns...or the like.

So I ask again...what guesses?


So, like Spendi said, you allow for the existence of centaurs and jinn.
RonPrice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 12:01 am
@InfraBlue,
Centaurs, jinn, tooth fairies, unicorns...or the like, Infrablue, are not found in Vidal's work.-Ron
0 Replies
 
neologist
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 02:01 am
@RonPrice,
Are you saying homosexuality is an acceptable lifestyle in the Baha'i faith?
RonPrice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 06:28 am
@neologist,
The Bahá'í Faith teaches that the only acceptable form of sexual expression is within marriage, and Bahá'í marriage is defined in the religion's texts as exclusively between one man and one woman. Bahá'ís stress the importance of absolute chastity for any unmarried person, and focus on personal restraint.

While in authoritative teachings homosexuality is described as a condition that an individual should control and overcome, Bahá'ís are left to apply the teachings at their own discretion, and are discouraged from singling out homosexuality over other transgressions, such as the consumption of alcohol, or heterosexual promiscuity. Membership in the Bahá'í community is therefore open to lesbian and gay adherents, who are to be "advised and sympathized with". Go to this link for more on this subject: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_and_the_Bah%C3%A1'%C3%AD_Faith
0 Replies
 
Romeo Fabulini
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 07:53 am
Quote:
Ron said:..Bahá'ís...are discouraged from singling out homosexuality over other transgressions, such as the consumption of alcohol.. Membership in the Bahá'í community is..open to lesbian and gay adherents, who are to be "advised and sympathized with

1- Is alcohol completely banned in Bahaism, or are they allowed the odd tipple?
(Jesus turned water to wine, and later drank wine at the last supper)

2- Practising gays/lesbians are allowed into Bahaism.
By contrast, Christianity only allows non -practising gays to sit among them, at least in the early churches-
"Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And that is what some of you were." (1 Cor 6:9-11)
Frank Apisa
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 08:00 am
@InfraBlue,
InfraBlue wrote:

Frank Apisa wrote:
I make no guesses about things like centaurs, jinn, tooth fairies, unicorns...or the like.

So I ask again...what guesses?


So, like Spendi said, you allow for the existence of centaurs and jinn.


What I wrote was: I make no guesses about things like centaurs, jinn, tooth fairies, unicorns...or the like.

That is what I meant.

You have suggested that I do...so how about citing an instance where I have?
RonPrice
 
  1  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 06:53 pm
@Romeo Fabulini,
Alcohol is completely banned to Baha'is. Practising gays/lesbians are allowed to become Baha'is. -Ron
----------------------------
I am informed that Christian views on alcohol are varied. Throughout the first 1,800 years of church history, Christians consumed alcoholic beverages as a common part of everyday life and used "the fruit of the vine" in their central rite—the Eucharist or Last Supper. They held that both the Bible and Christian tradition taught that alcohol is a gift from God that makes life more joyous, but that overindulgence leading to drunkenness is a sin.

In the mid-19th century, some Protestant Christians moved from this historic position of allowing moderate use of alcohol (sometimes called moderationism) to either deciding that not imbibing was wisest in the present circumstances (abstentionism) or prohibiting all ordinary consumption of alcohol because it was believed to be a sin (prohibitionism). Today, all three of these positions exist in Christianity, but the historic position remains the most common worldwide, due to the adherence by the largest bodies of Christians including Anglicanism, Catholicism, and Orthodoxy.
neologist
 
  2  
Reply Sun 19 Jan, 2014 09:20 pm
@RonPrice,
You confuse nominal christianity with the teachings of the Bible, a common mistake which leads to many a straw man argument.
 

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